TUTORIALS
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wow i left my computer for about six hours and no one posted anything in this whole subforum
::worries about rmn sometimes, youse guys::
??jk??
anyway what is the right amount of tutorials? how many words of tutorial is too many (you can use any unit you want, "words" is just a weird writery one that's especially specific)? how many pages, how many individual tutorial sequences, etcetera etc. what percentage of tutorials is it okay to put in optional readables (including in game items, but not instruction booklets) as opposed to mandatory mainline content?
also, do the benefits of an actual interactive "take you by the hand and guide you through the engine" sequence outweigh how much much harder that is to program than just displaying text for the player to read?
(assume a jrpg of roughly average complexity for the 2010s. but in my game the systems/features at play are limited and tracked ammunition, most (TEK) skills cost Health, not PPE, except for an Esper's PSI skills <see, you kinda have to include that one if you include the one about how skills cost hp not mp>, different weapons/attacks have different degrees of armor penetration/heavier armor blocks an increasing percentage of specifically ballistic damage, and area of effect is a thing. I think that's everything, what's that, five things? I don't bother with any of the stuff that can be assumed like "this is an ATB bar" or "different enemies have different elemental weaknesses". That's without getting into any of the hacker stuff (that can wait until there's a hacker in the party).
::worries about rmn sometimes, youse guys::
??jk??
anyway what is the right amount of tutorials? how many words of tutorial is too many (you can use any unit you want, "words" is just a weird writery one that's especially specific)? how many pages, how many individual tutorial sequences, etcetera etc. what percentage of tutorials is it okay to put in optional readables (including in game items, but not instruction booklets) as opposed to mandatory mainline content?
also, do the benefits of an actual interactive "take you by the hand and guide you through the engine" sequence outweigh how much much harder that is to program than just displaying text for the player to read?
(assume a jrpg of roughly average complexity for the 2010s. but in my game the systems/features at play are limited and tracked ammunition, most (TEK) skills cost Health, not PPE, except for an Esper's PSI skills <see, you kinda have to include that one if you include the one about how skills cost hp not mp>, different weapons/attacks have different degrees of armor penetration/heavier armor blocks an increasing percentage of specifically ballistic damage, and area of effect is a thing. I think that's everything, what's that, five things? I don't bother with any of the stuff that can be assumed like "this is an ATB bar" or "different enemies have different elemental weaknesses". That's without getting into any of the hacker stuff (that can wait until there's a hacker in the party).
Include a tutorial for systems unique to your game. I believe tutorials should be as brief as possible and skipable (which helps with replayability). If you find that you're using a ton of words when explaining something, it can most likely be condensed.
I like to assume that anybody who plays my game is familiar with RPGs already, and are of reasonable intelligence, so that I don't have to explain how to use the party change menu, for example.
I like to assume that anybody who plays my game is familiar with RPGs already, and are of reasonable intelligence, so that I don't have to explain how to use the party change menu, for example.
It depends is really the best answer.
I tend to think that the most basic things like movement and confirms can be put in readme files, but if you’ve changed systems or have your own custom systems, they should be explained well.
Make them skippable please, like dethmetal said.
I tend to think that the most basic things like movement and confirms can be put in readme files, but if you’ve changed systems or have your own custom systems, they should be explained well.
Make them skippable please, like dethmetal said.
The only way to go about it is to ideally find someone who's close to the target audience (someone who likes playing rpgs, someone who's used to playing rpgmaker games, etc.) get them to play the game in-front of you or record footage. Do not tell them what to do and simply observe. You'll get a lot of notes on what they ignored, what went over their head and probably what you communicated badly on. Interview them on what they thought everything was for. This is way more helpful than your (probably) baseless assumptions. I would even just throw someone at your game without any tutorials implemented to control for stuff that might not be necessary.
It's essentially this video because although this is a huge extreme and probably shouldn't be your typical test subject, it does inform how most video games just aren't intuitive at all. They rely on existing games or being a common genre that most people are used to. More importantly you have to draw the line somewhere on who your game is for and that's crucial to figure out beyond just teaching the player how to play. Because "Why does your player want to play the game? What are they getting out of it?" is ultimately connected to it.
Try out Xenoblade Chronicles 2, it has the worst fucking tutorials ever made. But it's also a good lesson. Because as someone who's played a lot of video games and RPGs and have suffered through really obtuse games, XC2 just baffles me. Tutorials never end even 20 hours into the game, there's too much information to remember (which is a problem with the battle system itself), and it relies on big paragraphs and screenshots sometimes to get its point across. Even when it forces you to do the action... I don't know why I did it or what priority it should have in fights. Then again it probably isn't for me either, there's probably some tentpole anime-combo RPG I didn't play that would've eased me into it.
It's essentially this video because although this is a huge extreme and probably shouldn't be your typical test subject, it does inform how most video games just aren't intuitive at all. They rely on existing games or being a common genre that most people are used to. More importantly you have to draw the line somewhere on who your game is for and that's crucial to figure out beyond just teaching the player how to play. Because "Why does your player want to play the game? What are they getting out of it?" is ultimately connected to it.
Try out Xenoblade Chronicles 2, it has the worst fucking tutorials ever made. But it's also a good lesson. Because as someone who's played a lot of video games and RPGs and have suffered through really obtuse games, XC2 just baffles me. Tutorials never end even 20 hours into the game, there's too much information to remember (which is a problem with the battle system itself), and it relies on big paragraphs and screenshots sometimes to get its point across. Even when it forces you to do the action... I don't know why I did it or what priority it should have in fights. Then again it probably isn't for me either, there's probably some tentpole anime-combo RPG I didn't play that would've eased me into it.
@dethmetal & DDD: well, these "tutorials" are not, at this stage, interactive tutorials like you see in so many commercial games as much as they are just text appears on the screen that tells you what's up. The text is usually limited to 8 lines, and never more than 16 at a time. So I'm not sure that skippable is an applicable concept here? Like, I mean I guess you could hold down the skip text button and not read the text if you really wanted, so they are technically skippable.
But I just want to make sure you know that these are "tutorials" in the sense that the squatting dudes in the dojo in the beginning of FF7 will tell you things about the game's mechanics when you talk to them, not in the sense that the tutorial where FF7 forces you to open the menu and navigate through it to show you how Materia work is a tutorial. One of my core questions was how much is there to be gained by actually creating an interactive tutorial, or am I fine with just brief text that explains (the non-obvious) things.
(The more in-depth information about the battle system is included in datapads you get XP for collecting and can then read or not. So they're "opt in", which is kind of like skippable, except that skipping them is the default. But there are five optional collectible "Matador's Combat Manuals" and counting. Personally, I think it's kind of a cool idea/cool way to convey information to the player. They're just one kind of documents you can collect in the game, other ones include little snippets of information about the setting and how the world came to be the way it is, stuff that would be information overload exposition nightmaretown if you threw it at the player all at once. Instead you get to piece it together from in-game documents kind of sort of Elder Scrolls style.)
@Darken:
Interesting video.
Only semi-related blather:
Indeed, indeed, preach on! This is the best approach to playtesting in general. And it's rather counter-intuitive and took me forever to learn. Because watching footage of someone playing your game when you are not there hovering over their shoulder available to tell them what to click on and where to go can be harrowingly painful when your ego is anywhere near as fragile as mine.
But once I finally learned just how important this was, I never forgot it. Basically the tldr here is yes, this is true of tutorials, but I think it's also kind of true of EVERYTHING you might want to know about how players will interact with your game.
It's the one thing I really wish I'd fully realized much sooner in my "career" as a game dev and it's the single most important piece of advice I'd impart to pretty much anyone going into game development so...yeah.
I wouldn't. Not with this game, anyway. BECAUSE:
To a certain degree, that line's been drawn for me, hasn't it? I mean, simply by the fact that this game is being developed in RPG Maker MV for distribution through this website, RPG Maker Web, and eventually itch.io it is pretty clearly for people that have at least some experience with JRPGs. So I'm not going to waste anyone's time by like, explaining basic plankton standard JRPG stuff as I never would or do in any of my games.
////Completely unrelated blather:
note to self: work on brevity
But I just want to make sure you know that these are "tutorials" in the sense that the squatting dudes in the dojo in the beginning of FF7 will tell you things about the game's mechanics when you talk to them, not in the sense that the tutorial where FF7 forces you to open the menu and navigate through it to show you how Materia work is a tutorial. One of my core questions was how much is there to be gained by actually creating an interactive tutorial, or am I fine with just brief text that explains (the non-obvious) things.
(The more in-depth information about the battle system is included in datapads you get XP for collecting and can then read or not. So they're "opt in", which is kind of like skippable, except that skipping them is the default. But there are five optional collectible "Matador's Combat Manuals" and counting. Personally, I think it's kind of a cool idea/cool way to convey information to the player. They're just one kind of documents you can collect in the game, other ones include little snippets of information about the setting and how the world came to be the way it is, stuff that would be information overload exposition nightmaretown if you threw it at the player all at once. Instead you get to piece it together from in-game documents kind of sort of Elder Scrolls style.)
@Darken:
Interesting video.
Only semi-related blather:
This guy picked some of the same video games for his wife to sample that I chose to try and get my dad to play, for some of the same reasons. (I would never try to get my dad, or for that matter anyone, to play Dark Souls. Okay I'm totally fucking lying. I basically forced an ex-girlfriend to play Dark Souls 3. But it was a MISTAKE and I don't know what the fuck I was thinking.)
Unlike this guy's wife, my dad did have general knowledge of and familarity with videos, it just started chronologically with Pong/Ms. Pacman/Space Invaders and ended chronologically at the start of the PSX/X-Box era, where he could not make the the transition to everything being 3D and having mouselook. The mouselook in particular is definitely the deal breaker for him, besides that it's not really in his nature to be a gamer anyway. But throughout the NES and SNES eras when I was like idk 8 or whatever he was better at the Mario games than me. I mean, by the time I was 10 I had surpassed him but that testifies to my own rapid progress at becoming a little hardcore gamer and his being a filthy boomer casual. XD love u dad
I actually got him to play through and beat my first half of When You Were Young. It took him about 3.5 hours to clear about 45 minutes of game but still, I was delighted. All of these years of him ignoring my prodigious RPG Maker output and me assuming it'd never have been accessible to him and now I found out that all I had to do was put a SNES controller shaped USB controller in his hands and now suddenly my videogames are videogames he can actually play. Weird how that works.
Although I went through a phase where I was using the same cheap peripheral myself because it made RM games feel better. And I probably will again. I've just reported to keyboard out of laziness.
(Also I am such an old fogie in some ways I cannot get my head around the fact that MV has mouse support by default. Every time I'm testing my game in MV and I move or click the mouse and it causes something to happen I'm like "WTF just happened!?")
Unlike this guy's wife, my dad did have general knowledge of and familarity with videos, it just started chronologically with Pong/Ms. Pacman/Space Invaders and ended chronologically at the start of the PSX/X-Box era, where he could not make the the transition to everything being 3D and having mouselook. The mouselook in particular is definitely the deal breaker for him, besides that it's not really in his nature to be a gamer anyway. But throughout the NES and SNES eras when I was like idk 8 or whatever he was better at the Mario games than me. I mean, by the time I was 10 I had surpassed him but that testifies to my own rapid progress at becoming a little hardcore gamer and his being a filthy boomer casual. XD love u dad
I actually got him to play through and beat my first half of When You Were Young. It took him about 3.5 hours to clear about 45 minutes of game but still, I was delighted. All of these years of him ignoring my prodigious RPG Maker output and me assuming it'd never have been accessible to him and now I found out that all I had to do was put a SNES controller shaped USB controller in his hands and now suddenly my videogames are videogames he can actually play. Weird how that works.
Although I went through a phase where I was using the same cheap peripheral myself because it made RM games feel better. And I probably will again. I've just reported to keyboard out of laziness.
(Also I am such an old fogie in some ways I cannot get my head around the fact that MV has mouse support by default. Every time I'm testing my game in MV and I move or click the mouse and it causes something to happen I'm like "WTF just happened!?")
author=darken
The only way to go about it is to ideally find someone who's close to the target audience (someone who likes playing rpgs, someone who's used to playing rpgmaker games, etc.) get them to play the game in-front of you or record footage. Do not tell them what to do and simply observe. You'll get a lot of notes on what they ignored, what went over their head and probably what you communicated badly on. Interview them on what they thought everything was for. This is way more helpful than your (probably) baseless assumptions.
Indeed, indeed, preach on! This is the best approach to playtesting in general. And it's rather counter-intuitive and took me forever to learn. Because watching footage of someone playing your game when you are not there hovering over their shoulder available to tell them what to click on and where to go can be harrowingly painful when your ego is anywhere near as fragile as mine.
But once I finally learned just how important this was, I never forgot it. Basically the tldr here is yes, this is true of tutorials, but I think it's also kind of true of EVERYTHING you might want to know about how players will interact with your game.
It's the one thing I really wish I'd fully realized much sooner in my "career" as a game dev and it's the single most important piece of advice I'd impart to pretty much anyone going into game development so...yeah.
author=Darken
I would even just throw someone at your game without any tutorials implemented to control for stuff that might not be necessary.
I wouldn't. Not with this game, anyway. BECAUSE:
author=Darken
More importantly you have to draw the line somewhere on who your game is for and that's crucial to figure out beyond just teaching the player how to play. Because "Why does your player want to play the game? What are they getting out of it?" is ultimately connected to it.
To a certain degree, that line's been drawn for me, hasn't it? I mean, simply by the fact that this game is being developed in RPG Maker MV for distribution through this website, RPG Maker Web, and eventually itch.io it is pretty clearly for people that have at least some experience with JRPGs. So I'm not going to waste anyone's time by like, explaining basic plankton standard JRPG stuff as I never would or do in any of my games.
////Completely unrelated blather:
The ad on the site I'm looking at now because I'm too poor to donate is selling various CCG cards and one of them is a Yugioh card that they're selling for $899.69 and I want to meet the person that would spend NINE HUNDRED FUCKING DOLLARS on a Yugioh card so I can gently euthanize them for their own good. (Obviously, that's nothing like the thousands of dollars I've personally spent on Magic cards over the years, which was a PERFECTLY reasonable adult decision.)
note to self: work on brevity
I'm going to talk about my personal answer of the tutorial for Draug's Resurrection. I'm not saying whether or not it's by any means a valid or good answer, but I think I'm making the most of the situation.
Because of a bug on some (most?) machines, the engine is unstable before the player assumes control for the first time. So I tried to make the most of it. You get a couple dialogue boxes before you're dumped into a small area with the tutorial-person (Eric), and you're given control in under a minute. Nothing fancy, just straight to getting to do something.
From there, you can talk to Eric if you want, and his tutorial is split into two sections; one for the Menu system and one for the Battle system. The player isn't actually in control, but the tutorials are accompanied by pre-printscreened images of said parts of the Menu/Battle system, showing you what's being talked about. I personally think that's plenty; I don't really like when a game physically forces you to go through menus, ESPECIALLY when it makes you do dumb actions, like drink an Elixir for no reason or force you to fuse Arsene into a Slime. You also get an option to fight against Eric, to test out all the battle mechanics in a low-stress environment.
You also have the option to completely ignore him, or only do a portion of it. If you ignore Eric, the player character (Clair) will adopt a more impatient attitude towards Eric for the next half-hour or so, but this ultimately affects nothing but some dialogue. For what it's worth, the tutorial isn't actually Eric telling you stuff, but Clair telling HIM stuff, and all the dialogue is handled as in-universe talking and training. It might make it a little long-winded as a result, but I think it's less dull for it, and Eric tends to directly voice what I'd think are the most common misconceptions of how things work. DR's systems are fairly unorthodox.
What I think is the most relevant is that the tutorial is accessible within seconds of starting a new file. If you're unclear on anything, it's incredibly quick and easy to boot up a new file and re-read the sections that concern you. For better or worse, those two tutorial sections don't really hold back on going over most details and kind of front-loads things; stuff like Ailments, Tomes, and Personal Skills aren't generally going to see huge play right off the bat are mentioned. That said, a lot of little things are accessible right off the bat if you want to poke around and customize immediately. You start with extra weapons in your inventory, you can immediately swap your Personal Skill around, and buy a Tome quite quickly, so it's not like parts of the menu are fundamentally useless until later in the game.
My hope is that if someone doesn't get things, it's no big deal for them to shelf the thought for a fair while. But if they become curious, they'll remember how quick the tutorial is to reach and how much stuff it touches on, and may feel inclined to give it another quick look.
@Darken:
While most of that video is valid, I think there's one incredibly important caveat to it; she was being silently watched and judged. People tend to get a lot more skittish when others are watching, not wanting to either bore them or otherwise look inept, and feel silently rushed as a result. Which means less time for looking through menus, reading in general, and doing other 'boring' things, which just compounds on problems. I can't personally say how huge of a factor that was for her, but I think it's something to bear in mind.
Because of a bug on some (most?) machines, the engine is unstable before the player assumes control for the first time. So I tried to make the most of it. You get a couple dialogue boxes before you're dumped into a small area with the tutorial-person (Eric), and you're given control in under a minute. Nothing fancy, just straight to getting to do something.
From there, you can talk to Eric if you want, and his tutorial is split into two sections; one for the Menu system and one for the Battle system. The player isn't actually in control, but the tutorials are accompanied by pre-printscreened images of said parts of the Menu/Battle system, showing you what's being talked about. I personally think that's plenty; I don't really like when a game physically forces you to go through menus, ESPECIALLY when it makes you do dumb actions, like drink an Elixir for no reason or force you to fuse Arsene into a Slime. You also get an option to fight against Eric, to test out all the battle mechanics in a low-stress environment.
You also have the option to completely ignore him, or only do a portion of it. If you ignore Eric, the player character (Clair) will adopt a more impatient attitude towards Eric for the next half-hour or so, but this ultimately affects nothing but some dialogue. For what it's worth, the tutorial isn't actually Eric telling you stuff, but Clair telling HIM stuff, and all the dialogue is handled as in-universe talking and training. It might make it a little long-winded as a result, but I think it's less dull for it, and Eric tends to directly voice what I'd think are the most common misconceptions of how things work. DR's systems are fairly unorthodox.
What I think is the most relevant is that the tutorial is accessible within seconds of starting a new file. If you're unclear on anything, it's incredibly quick and easy to boot up a new file and re-read the sections that concern you. For better or worse, those two tutorial sections don't really hold back on going over most details and kind of front-loads things; stuff like Ailments, Tomes, and Personal Skills aren't generally going to see huge play right off the bat are mentioned. That said, a lot of little things are accessible right off the bat if you want to poke around and customize immediately. You start with extra weapons in your inventory, you can immediately swap your Personal Skill around, and buy a Tome quite quickly, so it's not like parts of the menu are fundamentally useless until later in the game.
My hope is that if someone doesn't get things, it's no big deal for them to shelf the thought for a fair while. But if they become curious, they'll remember how quick the tutorial is to reach and how much stuff it touches on, and may feel inclined to give it another quick look.
@Darken:
While most of that video is valid, I think there's one incredibly important caveat to it; she was being silently watched and judged. People tend to get a lot more skittish when others are watching, not wanting to either bore them or otherwise look inept, and feel silently rushed as a result. Which means less time for looking through menus, reading in general, and doing other 'boring' things, which just compounds on problems. I can't personally say how huge of a factor that was for her, but I think it's something to bear in mind.
@Acra: Any setting or context is likely to interfere with the tester's mindset. But it's better than nothing at all. I think of it like echo location, where you send out a sonar to reveal what the game looks like to a blank slate player, but you only get a glimpse. You need multiple sonar waves to keep track of what it really looks like, and even then there's going to be discrepancies (ie get a new person to test, but they're a different personality/skill level + you've changed the game to address issues but the latest tester has different issues completely). But again I prefer the sonar than none at all.
There's also advice to actually have two testers so they talk among themselves more overtly and to make the test less awkward (children are especially good at this). But ultimately I post that video as an extreme case where those tests weren't just even to see if the games were good at tutorials but to observe the psychology and gain a perspective broadly speaking. Which isn't always super conductive to this topic, but I think helps with the designer empathy part of the equation. Because ultimately you're making entertainment for other humans and that's easy to forget sometimes.
There's also advice to actually have two testers so they talk among themselves more overtly and to make the test less awkward (children are especially good at this). But ultimately I post that video as an extreme case where those tests weren't just even to see if the games were good at tutorials but to observe the psychology and gain a perspective broadly speaking. Which isn't always super conductive to this topic, but I think helps with the designer empathy part of the equation. Because ultimately you're making entertainment for other humans and that's easy to forget sometimes.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=dethmetal
Include a tutorial for systems unique to your game. I believe tutorials should be as brief as possible and skipable (which helps with replayability). If you find that you're using a ton of words when explaining something, it can most likely be condensed.
I like to assume that anybody who plays my game is familiar with RPGs already, and are of reasonable intelligence, so that I don't have to explain how to use the party change menu, for example.
I think there's a lot of value in having three different tutorial settings when a player starts the game for the first. One with no tutorials (for people who've played the game before), one like you described (for players who are familiar with RPGs), and one where simple concepts are also explained (for players who are not familiar with RPGs, or have maybe never even played a video game before).
Adding the ability for players to select which type of tutorials they want is incredibly easy for a developer to do. And even if only one of your thousands of players uses the full tutorial setting, I think it's worth doing, just because it's so easy to add them.
That said, I don't think tutorials for very simple concepts need anything more than a text box telling you the info you need in one or two sentences. A text box that says "You can go down pipes by pressing the down arrow" is all you need. You don't need an interactive sequence demonstrating it.
@Acra: Thanks for the in-depth answer! I really appreciate the detail you put into it. Lots to consider.
Thanks LockeZ, that was one of the main things I was trying to work out.
author=LockeZ
That said, I don't think tutorials for very simple concepts need anything more than a text box telling you the info you need in one or two sentences. A text box that says "You can go down pipes by pressing the down arrow" is all you need. You don't need an interactive sequence demonstrating it.
Thanks LockeZ, that was one of the main things I was trying to work out.
author=LockeZ
That said, I don't think tutorials for very simple concepts need anything more than a text box telling you the info you need in one or two sentences. A text box that says "You can go down pipes by pressing the down arrow" is all you need. You don't need an interactive sequence demonstrating it.
I'm picturing somebody standing next to a pipe and repeatedly squatting to no effect, just because there's always somebody
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