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CHALLENGING THE STANDARDS
Posts
Shadowtext
120
Shadowtext
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Closeauthor=McDohl link=topic=2605.msg48973#msg48973 date=1228360086Like he said, it needs to be there. It's just not very important what it IS. If it serves the purpose of getting you to the next place in the game, it is an effective story.author=Shadowtext link=topic=2605.msg48943#msg48943 date=1228356747
One of the guys from id (I forget if it was Carmack or Romero) once said "Plot in games is like plot in porn: You expect it to be there, but it's not that important."
I'm not really a big id fan, but I like that sentiment, even in regards to RPGs.
If there's no plot to a game, then you're playing something like DDR.
Which is fine for DDR. Not a game genre as defined as role-playing game.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2605.msg48976#msg48976 date=1228360390Even in a strictly narrative medium, plot is only there to serve the character arcs, so it's not THAT much more important in novels, film, television, what have you.
No offense Shadowtext, but I think that's absolutely false.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2605.msg48981#msg48981 date=1228360767Actually, I loved it. Lots of stuff to do, interesting new game mechanics, and I'd go gay for Balthier.
Let me guess, you thought FFXII was absolute ass.
The plot was pretty dry, though, I'll give you that.
The point I was trying to make, was that in my opinion, FF12 was one of the least character driven RPGs I've ever played, and it was mostly plotcentric, but without a focus on characters. It seemed the opposite of what you're saying, the characters just drove the plot.
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2605.msg48984#msg48984 date=1228361005As you may have picked up over the course of the conversation and my tenure on the internet, plot's not a big factor in how I feel about a game. If we were talking visual novels, it might be different, but game-wise? The best plots just serve to make me feel even better about kicking the ass off of a particularly nasty villain. Considering how hard it can be to pull off, I'd go crazy if I insisted every game had a plot good enough to do that.
The point I was trying to make, was that in my opinion, FF12 was one of the least character driven RPGs I've ever played, and it was mostly plotcentric, but without a focus on characters. It seemed the opposite of what you're saying, the characters just drove the plot.
Clest
0
Actually, regarding RPGs as I said before, my take it: Setting is core, then comes life and society, in that society you have characters, who take actions. Those actions are what make the story. Plots are aspects of the story linking certain events.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=2605.msg48985#msg48985 date=1228361235author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2605.msg48984#msg48984 date=1228361005As you may have picked up over the course of the conversation and my tenure on the internet, plot's not a big factor in how I feel about a game. If we were talking visual novels, it might be different, but game-wise? The best plots just serve to make me feel even better about kicking the ass off of a particularly nasty villain. Considering how hard it can be to pull off, I'd go crazy if I insisted every game had a plot good enough to do that.
The point I was trying to make, was that in my opinion, FF12 was one of the least character driven RPGs I've ever played, and it was mostly plotcentric, but without a focus on characters. It seemed the opposite of what you're saying, the characters just drove the plot.
No, what I meant is, I've gathered from you that characters are more important than plot in an RPG. The plot just moves along the exploits of the characters. But in a game like FF12, where the opposite seems to occur, how do you feel about that?
Shadowtext
120
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2605.msg48987#msg48987 date=1228361459Like I said, it made the plot pretty dry. Felt like any one of a billion disposable (and forgettable) fantasy and sci fi stories by writers remembered more for their ideas than for actually being any good at writing. Actually, Revenant Wings was far more charming story-wise than FF12.
No, what I meant is, I've gathered from you that characters are more important than plot in an RPG. The plot just moves along the exploits of the characters. But in a game like FF12, where the opposite seems to occur, how do you feel about that?
You know, there are games like Saga Frontier who's plots are quirky and almost nonexistent, and the characters aren't too fleshed out either, but I love it to death.
Now if only I can get the Essence of SaGa Frontier, which is a Japanese only guidebook filled with enough information on the world of Saga Frontier to make a series. Only bits and pieces have been translated.
Now if only I can get the Essence of SaGa Frontier, which is a Japanese only guidebook filled with enough information on the world of Saga Frontier to make a series. Only bits and pieces have been translated.
Clest
0
I would kill for something like that Feld, love Saga Frontier too (though Lute´s quest was kinda boring to me). Best quests were T260, Blue, Emelia and Red.
I never played any of this Saga nonsense. :(
How are 'plot' and 'story' different? I dunno what term to use, but when it comes to my stories/plots I tend to not plan them out completely before even starting a project. I kind of wade into RPG Maker and begin to build different things here and there and make it up as I go along. "Oh, this sounds cool." "I've never thought of something like this." "This sounds completely original. Oh wait, someone already did it." --Those are a few of my thoughts when putting together some story.
It seems nowadays that games, both professional and indie, have stopped their story development somewhere around when Final Fantasy became popular. There is so much of the same thing floating around that sometimes I really can't think of anything "new" because all I know how to do is 'edit' something previously made, contrive one or two 'unique features' and call it "rollloloz, custam gaem!"
...Uh, tl;dr: People copy what makes money too much.
How are 'plot' and 'story' different? I dunno what term to use, but when it comes to my stories/plots I tend to not plan them out completely before even starting a project. I kind of wade into RPG Maker and begin to build different things here and there and make it up as I go along. "Oh, this sounds cool." "I've never thought of something like this." "This sounds completely original. Oh wait, someone already did it." --Those are a few of my thoughts when putting together some story.
It seems nowadays that games, both professional and indie, have stopped their story development somewhere around when Final Fantasy became popular. There is so much of the same thing floating around that sometimes I really can't think of anything "new" because all I know how to do is 'edit' something previously made, contrive one or two 'unique features' and call it "rollloloz, custam gaem!"
...Uh, tl;dr: People copy what makes money too much.
Shadowtext
120
author=CherryBomb link=topic=2605.msg49058#msg49058 date=1228372301The plot is the course of events that happen in a story, like "Three characters try to overcome an obstacle. The first two tell the evil thing that guards it that the characters that are coming later will be more tasty and are allowed to pass. The third one vanquishes the evil." Two stories can have identical plots and still be entirely different stories based on the personality of the characters taking part in it, the effect it has on them and even whose point of view the story is being told from.
I never played any of this Saga nonsense. :(
How are 'plot' and 'story' different? I dunno what term to use, but when it comes to my stories/plots I tend to not plan them out completely before even starting a project. I kind of wade into RPG Maker and begin to build different things here and there and make it up as I go along. "Oh, this sounds cool." "I've never thought of something like this." "This sounds completely original. Oh wait, someone already did it." --Those are a few of my thoughts when putting together some story.
It seems nowadays that games, both professional and indie, have stopped their story development somewhere around when Final Fantasy became popular. There is so much of the same thing floating around that sometimes I really can't think of anything "new" because all I know how to do is 'edit' something previously made, contrive one or two 'unique features' and call it "rollloloz, custam gaem!"
...Uh, tl;dr: People copy what makes money too much.
As an example, the plot for basically every story that uses the monomyth as its basis is identical--an unremarkable young man sets out against an evil with a mentor (who has probably fought the evil in question before and who is inevitably killed) and a cast of allies. He fights the evil and is defeated and his mentor is probably killed in the process. He wallows in self pity for a moment but then overcomes his angst. He symbolically "dies" and is reborn, in the process going through an apotheosis (which is to say, he transcends normal humanity and ascends to symbolic divinity) and defeats the evil. It's such an old story that it forms the basis for the Major Arcana in the classic tarot deck. But even though you could probably name sixteen thousand stories that have that exact plot, they're different stories. Harry Potter, for all his similarities, is not Luke Skywalker.
And it's a really bad idea to not plan things out before hand. You need to at least have an outline of what's going to take place or else you're going to forget about plot arcs and end up with inconsistencies that really screw up the narrative.
