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GRAPHIC PROPORTIONS IN GAMES
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CloseWe have been discussing standards or breaking then and I always like to bring this topic: Enemies and heroes should have compatible proportions, if not, hide the heroes with front view battle system.
This is my only issue with one of my top 3 commercial RPGs, FF6 and it drives me mad when my characters riding Magitek armors are smaller than Narshee´s silly bunch of guards, however empire soldiers riding Mtek armors look like giants of still who could kill you by accident.
It also makes it difficult to imagine the battle (which I like to do) beyound the graphics... how am I supposed to know if that car sized sewer rat is actually a mutated giant rat or just a normal rat drawn too big because there is no proportion sense?
No matter how much I prefer to have side view battles with heroes and even enemies animated, I will absolutely prefer a front view battle system than a side view with misproportion.
Misproportion (and misfitting graphical styles) not just look fucking UGLY but it also breaks completely the feel of the system for me.
I don´t mind if enemies are static map sprites, better than static awesome Amano artworks which doesn´t fit with SD map sprite heroes in any possible way.
So what is your take on that? Any reasons to defend misproportion?
This is my only issue with one of my top 3 commercial RPGs, FF6 and it drives me mad when my characters riding Magitek armors are smaller than Narshee´s silly bunch of guards, however empire soldiers riding Mtek armors look like giants of still who could kill you by accident.
It also makes it difficult to imagine the battle (which I like to do) beyound the graphics... how am I supposed to know if that car sized sewer rat is actually a mutated giant rat or just a normal rat drawn too big because there is no proportion sense?
No matter how much I prefer to have side view battles with heroes and even enemies animated, I will absolutely prefer a front view battle system than a side view with misproportion.
Misproportion (and misfitting graphical styles) not just look fucking UGLY but it also breaks completely the feel of the system for me.
I don´t mind if enemies are static map sprites, better than static awesome Amano artworks which doesn´t fit with SD map sprite heroes in any possible way.
So what is your take on that? Any reasons to defend misproportion?
No reason to defend misproportion, but in battles this has never bothered me:
In battles I don't pay as much attention to graphics. Sometimes I'm so focused on the battles (being intense/fun or both) to notice. I just don't care, battles are about gameplay.
Outside of battles and exploring the world, everything simply must look correct. I haven't come across and commerical RPGs where this has been a problem, but I could give you a big list of RM games. My main problem is just knowing where I'm going and so it makes sense, which isn't much to ask for.
In battles I don't pay as much attention to graphics. Sometimes I'm so focused on the battles (being intense/fun or both) to notice. I just don't care, battles are about gameplay.
Outside of battles and exploring the world, everything simply must look correct. I haven't come across and commerical RPGs where this has been a problem, but I could give you a big list of RM games. My main problem is just knowing where I'm going and so it makes sense, which isn't much to ask for.
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I like to imagine everything, even equipment (like in FF7 I could imagine the characters ataching materias to slots on weapons/armlets, but in FF8 I had just anger without being able to imagine clearly how GFs are equipped, do they enter the character body, are they stored in some accessory? how do characters adjust a GF as we do in the menu with so many variations?).
Now if I am like that with a far less visual thing as equipment, let alone battles, which to me are like action scenes in a movie, just interactive, they are much a part of the story as talking to the kind or kissing the frail healer girl under a tree in the ending :)
However, in nom-RPG games I can ignore everything else, I never got why fighting games ever bother with plot anyway XD
Now if I am like that with a far less visual thing as equipment, let alone battles, which to me are like action scenes in a movie, just interactive, they are much a part of the story as talking to the kind or kissing the frail healer girl under a tree in the ending :)
However, in nom-RPG games I can ignore everything else, I never got why fighting games ever bother with plot anyway XD
The reason why monsters are so much bigger than PC sprites in early FF games is simple - bigger sprites allow for far more details, which results in higher quality graphics. Especially when engine limitations prohibited implementation of animated enemies. And everyone likes good visuals.
There is no conspiracy behind so many games having disproportionate villains. Think about it - if you were to resize FF6 monsters and make them the size of heroes, you'd be left with huge empty areas on the screen. Bigger sprites allow to fill this space somewhat. Plus they look better.
This has never bothered me in any game and I understand the reasons why 16-bit jRPGs included huge enemy sprites.
But I know this has been your gripe with jRPGS since, like, the big bang :D
There is no conspiracy behind so many games having disproportionate villains. Think about it - if you were to resize FF6 monsters and make them the size of heroes, you'd be left with huge empty areas on the screen. Bigger sprites allow to fill this space somewhat. Plus they look better.
This has never bothered me in any game and I understand the reasons why 16-bit jRPGs included huge enemy sprites.
But I know this has been your gripe with jRPGS since, like, the big bang :D
To be honest this has never really bothered me either. I can see how glaring differences in graphical styles would break the system for you, though. Lots of RM games have massively failed at that in their battle systems.
At least in FF6, the color palettes, contrast, brightness, etc all look good. Everything matches up in effect. And the monsters do look pretty amazing from a purely aesthetic point of view. Sometimes, in fights like Atma Weapon, the size proportions make sense!
At least in FF6, the color palettes, contrast, brightness, etc all look good. Everything matches up in effect. And the monsters do look pretty amazing from a purely aesthetic point of view. Sometimes, in fights like Atma Weapon, the size proportions make sense!
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DE: I know all that (before the big bang when you replied to my other topic :P) about the reason it is done. Still my first RPG was Chrono Trigger and it had all Map sprites as enemies, sure animated, but if they were static, with the background being a map shot, the visual impact wouldn´t be much different on me.
Also I don´t mind character detail that much, When I play RPGs I am all for the big picture and settings, characters are just a tiny part of the landscape. Even with Megaman I prefer nes when megaman is small rather than PSX with huge sprites, smaller characters show more on the setting).
Harmo: I can´t say Atma was supposed to be THAT huge since I can´t pin point the proportions, it could be bigger, smaller, who knows? Kinda like Were-rats in Narshee.
Funny enough I almost quit playing FF6 after first battle because of misproportion, seriously, and I am glad I didn´t, but it was a big put off for me, specially since my only RPG before that was CT and I had seen screnies from Phantasy Star 4 in magazines.
Also talking about Phantasy Star: both PS2 and 4 for Genesis had all animated enemies (not veeeeeery animated, but still rather lively) and they weren´t tiny map sprites either, and even more funny, Genesis was an inferior machine compared to the Snes.
Also I don´t mind character detail that much, When I play RPGs I am all for the big picture and settings, characters are just a tiny part of the landscape. Even with Megaman I prefer nes when megaman is small rather than PSX with huge sprites, smaller characters show more on the setting).
Harmo: I can´t say Atma was supposed to be THAT huge since I can´t pin point the proportions, it could be bigger, smaller, who knows? Kinda like Were-rats in Narshee.
Funny enough I almost quit playing FF6 after first battle because of misproportion, seriously, and I am glad I didn´t, but it was a big put off for me, specially since my only RPG before that was CT and I had seen screnies from Phantasy Star 4 in magazines.
Also talking about Phantasy Star: both PS2 and 4 for Genesis had all animated enemies (not veeeeeery animated, but still rather lively) and they weren´t tiny map sprites either, and even more funny, Genesis was an inferior machine compared to the Snes.
Neophyte
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author=Clest link=topic=2607.msg48236#msg48236 date=1228140053Yes, but it's a different engine. That's the simple reason behind it. FF6 does a good job of finding its way around it by making everything look fantastic, though. It's kind of like using RPG Maker and finding your way around limitations if you think about it.
DE: I know all that (before the big bang when you replied to my other topic :P) about the reason it is done. Still my first RPG was Chrono Trigger and it had all Map sprites as enemies, sure animated, but if they were static, with the background being a map shot, the visual impact wouldn´t be much different on me.
But hey, let's not JUST talk about proportions in battle. How about we talk about these RM games with horrible map proportions. I hate how barrels are twice the size of the character sprites, and how beds are so large that 6 people could fit in one. Please, make your game have similar proportions and do not rip your resources from 30 different games with different scales and proportions. Thanks.
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Well I dunno, It didn´t work for me that much. Everything in maps and all other aspects did. Maybe it stands out in FF6 to me exactly because everything else was perfectly to my liking. Also a note is that I really find SD small sprites more cute than detailed pictures, this actually applies to the bgs.
And awesome point, changed topic name. Let´s talk proportions in general.
Speaking of it, I am making a mech game it took me years to find an at least passable proportion between mech sprites (which should measure around 5 meters high) and characters so I don´t go Knight blade where they say mechs measer around four meters, but they are like just about 2 meters or something compared to characters.
There is also the opposite case of battles, when the dragon which is supposed to be castle sized is shown as one title size sprite.
With XP and VX, all that is quite easy to correct, even if your huge map monsters end up startic.
And awesome point, changed topic name. Let´s talk proportions in general.
Speaking of it, I am making a mech game it took me years to find an at least passable proportion between mech sprites (which should measure around 5 meters high) and characters so I don´t go Knight blade where they say mechs measer around four meters, but they are like just about 2 meters or something compared to characters.
There is also the opposite case of battles, when the dragon which is supposed to be castle sized is shown as one title size sprite.
With XP and VX, all that is quite easy to correct, even if your huge map monsters end up startic.
As far as the stuff like FF6 you mentioned, that doesn't really bother me. Suspension of disbelief, displaying detailed graphics, etc. Shit happens. Just try to make it look good.
Now this is what bothers me.
But hey, let's not JUST talk about proportions in battle. How about we talk about these RM games with horrible map proportions. I hate how barrels are twice the size of the character sprites, and how beds are so large that 6 people could fit in one. Please, make your game have similar proportions and do not rip your resources from 30 different games with different scales and proportions. Thanks.
Now this is what bothers me.
Blind
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author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2607.msg48293#msg48293 date=1228166003Basically this. Ignoring that I'd be the world's biggest hypocrite if I didn't feel this way for a moment, I don't think proportions in map design are really a problem if ultimately adds to the visual allure. Video games in and of themselves are un-proportional anyhow; and so as long as the style and design is consistent enough, I don't think it's an issue.
As far as the stuff like FF6 you mentioned, that doesn't really bother me. Suspension of disbelief, displaying detailed graphics, etc. Shit happens. Just try to make it look good.But hey, let's not JUST talk about proportions in battle. How about we talk about these RM games with horrible map proportions. I hate how barrels are twice the size of the character sprites, and how beds are so large that 6 people could fit in one. Please, make your game have similar proportions and do not rip your resources from 30 different games with different scales and proportions. Thanks.Now this is what bothers me.
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To me, proportion is more inportant than matching palletes or beauty in itself. I can imagine Gamboy back and white graphics as something more beautiful, but I can´t imagine a battle when I can´t know what size the monsters were supposed to be.
To me misproportion is equally bad in battle and maps for both distort and confuse my relation to things when I imagine the scenes on my mind.
To me misproportion is equally bad in battle and maps for both distort and confuse my relation to things when I imagine the scenes on my mind.
author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=2607.msg48343#msg48343 date=1228179947Ultima VII.
Until RPGs have maps where the insides of buildings are exactly proportional to the outside, I don't think anyone is in a position to complain. Things being out of proportion only really bothers me in mapping, and only then when things are out of proportion with respect to each other. If everything is out of proportion in the same way and it fits together then it won't irk me too much.
I rest my case.
Neophyte
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author=BlindSight link=topic=2607.msg48303#msg48303 date=1228168501Blind...you're a good mapper but WHAT!?!? :o
I don't think proportions in map design are really a problem if ultimately adds to the visual allure. Video games in and of themselves are un-proportional anyhow; and so as long as the style and design is consistent enough, I don't think it's an issue.
There is nothing visually appealing about that. What are you talking about. =O
Just look at the game you get most of your graphics from (Suikoden) and see how perfect everything looks. When used in RM, it almost always looks like the characters are opening giant doors. Ask any professional spriter about this. You're aware of that like you said...but don't try and ease your way out of the problem by saying it's visual allure. No commercial game does this and you know it.
I'm mainly talking about character sprite size vs. the sprite objects. It's obvious that certain objects (like chairs) should be smaller than the sprite. Seriously now.
Fallen-Griver, most games with building inners are proportional to the outside. It may not seem that way because of the 2D plane or perspective, but usually it's like that.
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It would be easier to keep insides in proportion if ppl didn´t think that each peasant house must have as much space as the royal palace :P Specially XP users
As long as your talking about propotions I might as well bring up chibi. All rpg maker characters are not proportional to real life but they are still accepted as being normal. Not having the outside of a house be proportional to the outside is a similar concept. I see it as kind of a cartoony style that the maker is trying to portray. Having huge disproportional monsters is quite different if its not explained because then it comes off as random. I see it as a lack of care from the creator.
author=BlindSight link=topic=2607.msg48303#msg48303 date=1228168501Horseshit.
Ignoring that I'd be the world's biggest hypocrite if I didn't feel this way for a moment, I don't think proportions in map design are really a problem if ultimately adds to the visual allure. Video games in and of themselves are un-proportional anyhow; and so as long as the style and design is consistent enough, I don't think it's an issue.
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author=arcan link=topic=2607.msg48850#msg48850 date=1228336824
As long as your talking about propotions I might as well bring up chibi. All rpg maker characters are not proportional to real life but they are still accepted as being normal. Not having the outside of a house be proportional to the outside is a similar concept. I see it as kind of a cartoony style that the maker is trying to portray. Having huge disproportional monsters is quite different if its not explained because then it comes off as random. I see it as a lack of care from the creator.
That is actually very silly :P Chibi is a style, what could be comparable to misproportion would be to mix chibi characters with realitic characters. As long as all proportions are kept the same and uniform to each other, it is proportional and consistent.
Having chibi is like having all houses way smaller or way bigger than real houses but still proportional in and out.
And again, it is easy to fix: Just don´t make interiors all huge (it is rare to see interiors being smaller than exteriors).
