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RPG MECHANICS II : UNIQUE ACTION COMMAND THEORY
Posts
LouisCyphre
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CloseRPG Mechanics II : Unique Action Command Theory
Ideal Questions
Should your characters have unique commands, beyond the basics allowed to all characters? If so, how should they be balanced? Should they inflict damage, status effects, or have some other type of effect, like scanning opponents?
If you can choose who goes in your party, how do you make sure all unique commands are useful? Do you worry about it? Do you balance unique commands even if the party is pre-determined?
Do guest characters have special unique commands? Are they rape be themselves, or do they supplement the party? Are they totally useless, or are they specific to the scenario you have the guest with you in?
Should commands have adverse effects if misused, or used to often? Should such adverse effects be mild, like wasting a turn or some MP, or should they be extreme, such as killing the user? When should such adverse effects happen? How can you warn the player about it? Should it be stated outright, or should it be hinted at subtly?
This is part of a series of topics that will deal with aesthetics involving the detailed analysis of the numbers and mechanics of RPGs, what can be kept, and what should be discarded.
I now have two projects: 1873, and a side-project I'm working on until RSD!V.
In 1873, the only "unique" skills per se are their Innate Skills, basically Limit-Break knockoffs. However, no two posse members get the same skills, with the exception of the Medic line and Speed buffs/debuffs.
The point is, different characters bring vastly different movesets to the table. Larsene simply will NOT do for a tanker-beatdown, and Samson is incapable of anything beyond rape damage and debuffs. I'd have to say though, balance-wise: Lera is broken. The jack-of-all-trades, she can double her speed, halve yours, Poison you, Enrage you. Combine that with her Innate Skills - dodge attacks for a set period - and she is rather unstoppable. Of course, Larsene can Poison and Enrage all foes, jam their guns and make them Bleed. Samson can halve all foes' DEF, double his ATK, and then bash on all foes for triple normal damage. So I guess all of my characters are equally broken. So long as they're balanced, I guess.
Another point to be made here is posse composition. While each character may be good on their own, they only really shine when their talents are combined. For example, Lera's "Evade all attacks for a set amount of turns" Innate Skill with Samson and Brit in tow allows you to spend your time debuffing and buffing and debuffing and buffing, without fearing damage. Larsene and Doc are a nasty combo as well, as you load down your foes with status effects, while curing them from yourself. Brit and Doc can go well together, too - buffing yourself while removing any debuffs applied to yourself. Throw Samson in there for some fun debuffing enemies and removing their buffs. The list goes on.
Ideal Questions
Should your characters have unique commands, beyond the basics allowed to all characters? If so, how should they be balanced? Should they inflict damage, status effects, or have some other type of effect, like scanning opponents?
If you can choose who goes in your party, how do you make sure all unique commands are useful? Do you worry about it? Do you balance unique commands even if the party is pre-determined?
Do guest characters have special unique commands? Are they rape be themselves, or do they supplement the party? Are they totally useless, or are they specific to the scenario you have the guest with you in?
Should commands have adverse effects if misused, or used to often? Should such adverse effects be mild, like wasting a turn or some MP, or should they be extreme, such as killing the user? When should such adverse effects happen? How can you warn the player about it? Should it be stated outright, or should it be hinted at subtly?
This is part of a series of topics that will deal with aesthetics involving the detailed analysis of the numbers and mechanics of RPGs, what can be kept, and what should be discarded.
I now have two projects: 1873, and a side-project I'm working on until RSD!V.
In 1873, the only "unique" skills per se are their Innate Skills, basically Limit-Break knockoffs. However, no two posse members get the same skills, with the exception of the Medic line and Speed buffs/debuffs.
The point is, different characters bring vastly different movesets to the table. Larsene simply will NOT do for a tanker-beatdown, and Samson is incapable of anything beyond rape damage and debuffs. I'd have to say though, balance-wise: Lera is broken. The jack-of-all-trades, she can double her speed, halve yours, Poison you, Enrage you. Combine that with her Innate Skills - dodge attacks for a set period - and she is rather unstoppable. Of course, Larsene can Poison and Enrage all foes, jam their guns and make them Bleed. Samson can halve all foes' DEF, double his ATK, and then bash on all foes for triple normal damage. So I guess all of my characters are equally broken. So long as they're balanced, I guess.
Another point to be made here is posse composition. While each character may be good on their own, they only really shine when their talents are combined. For example, Lera's "Evade all attacks for a set amount of turns" Innate Skill with Samson and Brit in tow allows you to spend your time debuffing and buffing and debuffing and buffing, without fearing damage. Larsene and Doc are a nasty combo as well, as you load down your foes with status effects, while curing them from yourself. Brit and Doc can go well together, too - buffing yourself while removing any debuffs applied to yourself. Throw Samson in there for some fun debuffing enemies and removing their buffs. The list goes on.
Please stop indenting your paragraphs and start seperating paragraphs with a line of white space. The post is a terrible unreadable wall of text.
gerkrt
488
I use unique comands, and all characters are specialitzed in their combat role and moveset. I always balance it, even characters combinations.
Anyway, now i have 3 projects, but they are not exactly the same in this type.
1-Its 95% like this, each character is special.
2-55%, grat flexibility and comon movesets and options, but such unique options.
3-5%, its something like FFVIII or V, with total flexibility.
I dont think any of the three its better that the other. The thing it matters its that its fun and well designed, they are just only diverse styles og gameplay.
Anyway, now i have 3 projects, but they are not exactly the same in this type.
1-Its 95% like this, each character is special.
2-55%, grat flexibility and comon movesets and options, but such unique options.
3-5%, its something like FFVIII or V, with total flexibility.
I dont think any of the three its better that the other. The thing it matters its that its fun and well designed, they are just only diverse styles og gameplay.
Thank you.
Should your characters have unique commands, beyond the basics allowed to all characters? If so, how should they be balanced?
I believe so. It gives more diversity between the characters besides numbers and elements. Unique abilities can even serve to offset a character's lacking stats giving more depth to who you use since it isn't just a case of "Who makes bigger numbers?"
Balancing is another can of worms. I wouldn't worry about it too much unless it was obviously and completely game breaking (your example of somebody who can double their speed and half the enemies, at least in Rm2k3, is pretty broken. Getting four turns per enemy action, assuming unbuffed you get a turn for each enemy turn, is insane. Toss in a poison and the enemy gets damaged five times from poison for every turn of theirs).
Do guest characters have special unique commands? Are they rape be themselves, or do they supplement the party? Are they totally useless, or are they specific to the scenario you have the guest with you in?
If a character joins the party, even if they're a guest and every non-guest has unique moves, then yes they should for consistancy's sake. The power of the guest's moves should be consistant with the rest of the characters. A character, guest or not, should play by the same rules as the rest of the party unless the story/character deems otherwise (like if God joined the party. I'd hope he would have some rapetastic moves)
Should commands have adverse effects if misused, or used to often? Should such adverse effects be mild, like wasting a turn or some MP, or should they be extreme, such as killing the user? When should such adverse effects happen? How can you warn the player about it? Should it be stated outright, or should it be hinted at subtly?
You should never severely punish the player, especially if its unstated. An ability that could make a character miss a turn or burn some MP is fine (think of % of doing high damage damage or nothing at all moves) but a move that could kill the user due to a random effect would rarely be used because the cost is too high and when it does it would aggrivate players (just wait for selection bias!).
The important mechanics should always be stated. Something like "The accuracy of this move decreases if used consecutively" so the player knows what is going on instead of coming to their own conclusions (like the example move being a low % attack if they used it four times in a row and it missed half the time).
Should your characters have unique commands, beyond the basics allowed to all characters? If so, how should they be balanced?
I believe so. It gives more diversity between the characters besides numbers and elements. Unique abilities can even serve to offset a character's lacking stats giving more depth to who you use since it isn't just a case of "Who makes bigger numbers?"
Balancing is another can of worms. I wouldn't worry about it too much unless it was obviously and completely game breaking (your example of somebody who can double their speed and half the enemies, at least in Rm2k3, is pretty broken. Getting four turns per enemy action, assuming unbuffed you get a turn for each enemy turn, is insane. Toss in a poison and the enemy gets damaged five times from poison for every turn of theirs).
Do guest characters have special unique commands? Are they rape be themselves, or do they supplement the party? Are they totally useless, or are they specific to the scenario you have the guest with you in?
If a character joins the party, even if they're a guest and every non-guest has unique moves, then yes they should for consistancy's sake. The power of the guest's moves should be consistant with the rest of the characters. A character, guest or not, should play by the same rules as the rest of the party unless the story/character deems otherwise (like if God joined the party. I'd hope he would have some rapetastic moves)
Should commands have adverse effects if misused, or used to often? Should such adverse effects be mild, like wasting a turn or some MP, or should they be extreme, such as killing the user? When should such adverse effects happen? How can you warn the player about it? Should it be stated outright, or should it be hinted at subtly?
You should never severely punish the player, especially if its unstated. An ability that could make a character miss a turn or burn some MP is fine (think of % of doing high damage damage or nothing at all moves) but a move that could kill the user due to a random effect would rarely be used because the cost is too high and when it does it would aggrivate players (just wait for selection bias!).
The important mechanics should always be stated. Something like "The accuracy of this move decreases if used consecutively" so the player knows what is going on instead of coming to their own conclusions (like the example move being a low % attack if they used it four times in a row and it missed half the time).
Clest
0
Should your characters have unique commands, beyond the basics allowed to all characters? If so, how should they be balanced?
I don´t mind unique commands, in fact most of the time I prefer all commands to be skillsets, except for guard/evade. In my project what makes characters more unique are their specific setups of skills and stats combines. Probably no skill is tottally unique, but certain characters will be specially useful here and there because they have X and Z skill while other has Z and Y.
The lack of tottally unique commands is to make the characters more like normal ppl and less like heroes. All my characters have those commands:
Act: Every weapon, spell, support skill, really, anything besides what the other commands do.
Guard: Defense
Evade: Doubles evasion
Item: uses itens
Note that I killed normal attacks, that is a bad command IMO.
Balancing is important, but it doesn´t depend on skills commands either.
Do guest characters have special unique commands? Are they rape be themselves, or do they supplement the party? Are they totally useless, or are they specific to the scenario you have the guest with you in?
"If a character joins the party, even if they're a guest and every non-guest has unique moves, then yes they should for consistancy's sake. The power of the guest's moves should be consistant with the rest of the characters. A character, guest or not, should play by the same rules as the rest of the party unless the story/character deems otherwise (like if God joined the party. I'd hope he would have some rapetastic moves)" <- exactly that
Should commands have adverse effects if misused, or used to often? Should such adverse effects be mild, like wasting a turn or some MP, or should they be extreme, such as killing the user? When should such adverse effects happen? How can you warn the player about it? Should it be stated outright, or should it be hinted at subtly?
"You should never severely punish the player, especially if its unstated. An ability that could make a character miss a turn or burn some MP is fine (think of % of doing high damage damage or nothing at all moves) but a move that could kill the user due to a random effect would rarely be used because the cost is too high and when it does it would aggrivate players (just wait for selection bias!)." <- that too, in fact I never use self sacrifice skills in a game. Only one I ever used was the skill which turns a character into a weapon in Tactics Ogre, but it was almost like keeping that character since the weapon lent the user all the killed character´s stats and one of their spells. So since I couldn´t take more than 10 guys in battle I killed one of my 2 healers for that.
author=Clest link=topic=2612.msg48489#msg48489 date=1228223764You cold heartless bastard. :D
Only one I ever used was the skill which turns a character into a weapon in Tactics Ogre, but it was almost like keeping that character since the weapon lent the user all the killed character´s stats and one of their spells. So since I couldn´t take more than 10 guys in battle I killed one of my 2 healers for that.
Clest
0
Pure healers are there to be sacrified (in fact I don´t have pure healers in my game, even my healers (medics) tend to have someway to defend thenselves nicely like disable anemies via status or just do awesome damage with attack spells or martial arts :P).
Clest
0
I agree to that in part Fallen, but let´s not forget the character´s backgrounds and life. While I don´t have exactly defined classes and mix my skills according to each character, their activities rule over those aspects, since after all, personality is a big factor in chosing activities. With that, if someone is a soldier or knight (not as in class, but in military positions) they will be mostly proficient with weapons or matial arts. However someone with more disposition for sports or bravery will be masterful with heavy physical melee weapons, while someone who is less up front will probably wield a gun most of the time and just use beam sabers or knives if needed.
I create classes just so I can create unique commands and/or abilities for them!
I like the challenge of creating an effective and balanced team that can succeed in the game's environment. If everyone can potentially do everything, it kind of kills the game for me (ie- FF7). What's the point of having more than 3 (or 4) playable characters if every character can do basically the same thing? It would be like playing an RTS where there is only 1 side and only 1 unit.
I like the challenge of creating an effective and balanced team that can succeed in the game's environment. If everyone can potentially do everything, it kind of kills the game for me (ie- FF7). What's the point of having more than 3 (or 4) playable characters if every character can do basically the same thing? It would be like playing an RTS where there is only 1 side and only 1 unit.
Darken
3952
author=kentona link=topic=2612.msg48527#msg48527 date=1228245029
What's the point of having more than 3 (or 4) playable characters if every character can do basically the same thing? It would be like playing an RTS where there is only 1 side and only 1 unit.
Technically it's more of the player's choice on who gets which spells and summons. But since Square didn't seem like they were shooting for that idea, you're right on FF7's poor customization. If a non-unique skill system was tuned to the idea that the player has to assign skills to any characters with some thought (say, a limited number of skills or they work differently depending on the character), then it would be interesting.
Currently I'm using the unique skill system in my project. Not only that, but the characters function different in terms of how they attack and gain energy.
gerkrt
488
¿You never tryed to balance your party combining materia, limit breaks, equipment and character stadistics?
Yes, in FFVII you can make all the characters the same, BUT its no the optimal strategy, you will lose a lot of eficiency in combat and have to work for extra money/ap/exp.
This is the idea of the system. Maybe the problem was yours, that didnt understand it. I think the main error of FFVII was the low challenge, that alows you to finish the game without knwowing nothing about the system. But lol, try playing some special challengue, and then talk me if you use the characters as a clones.
Just try playing it thinking at every moment, in what moment the best option its to have clones???
Yes, in FFVII you can make all the characters the same, BUT its no the optimal strategy, you will lose a lot of eficiency in combat and have to work for extra money/ap/exp.
This is the idea of the system. Maybe the problem was yours, that didnt understand it. I think the main error of FFVII was the low challenge, that alows you to finish the game without knwowing nothing about the system. But lol, try playing some special challengue, and then talk me if you use the characters as a clones.
Just try playing it thinking at every moment, in what moment the best option its to have clones???
Clest
0
I think FF7 should have kept the Magicite system from 6 and just changed the name to materia, maybe adding the purple materias in there, but command materias was really stupid.
Sure stats can be important for character individuality, but for me, skills are the key. (Also pulling back my other complaint with it, I find it stupid that a thief needs steal materia to steal, I assume that a bus driver must use Drive materia to drive a bus or a garner must use the Water plant materia to water his gardens). At least it is better than FF8 since I can imagine the characters attaching materia to their pracelets, but I am unsure of where they stuff th Guardian Forces in FF8 (do they get possessed or something).
Back on topic: Even if commands aren´t unique, having some of then permament at least makes it so you need to think on what you must do rather than keep changing things at each five seconds. Also there are things a certain character would never do.
Sure stats can be important for character individuality, but for me, skills are the key. (Also pulling back my other complaint with it, I find it stupid that a thief needs steal materia to steal, I assume that a bus driver must use Drive materia to drive a bus or a garner must use the Water plant materia to water his gardens). At least it is better than FF8 since I can imagine the characters attaching materia to their pracelets, but I am unsure of where they stuff th Guardian Forces in FF8 (do they get possessed or something).
Back on topic: Even if commands aren´t unique, having some of then permament at least makes it so you need to think on what you must do rather than keep changing things at each five seconds. Also there are things a certain character would never do.
That's the thing. I didn't have to do retarded shit just so that I could max out damage/second or some such to play FFVII. Whichever character you picked didn't matter - they were all blank slate avatars (so I picked the chicks so I could at least see boobs bounce).
Clest
0
LOL the only interesting chick in the game dies so I was left with the two swearing dudes and the dog (best character there). But yeah, me agrees with you Kentona.
Neophyte
155
author=kentona link=topic=2612.msg48655#msg48655 date=1228269310Blank slate avatars aren't a bad thing, though. At least depending on the game. But I didn't like the FF7 customization either. It essentially gave you unlimited resources which you can tune however you want. That's the issue with it. Blank slates with limited resources is much better, because you have to be more careful when customizing the character.
That's the thing. I didn't have to do retarded shit just so that I could max out damage/second or some such to play FFVII. Whichever character you picked didn't matter - they were all blank slate avatars (so I picked the chicks so I could at least see boobs bounce).
Most of the questions are just up to the creator, really. There isn't much discussion to be made here other than who has implemented a certain type of unique action into their project or how another game does it. It's a subset of the larger skill system altogether. That said, there needs to be unique skills in some shape or form so characters are different from one another. It's in the handbook of all good games.
gerkrt
488
See? We dont coincide. I like FFVII materia system over FFVI Esper+Individual characters. In terms of gameplay, my favorite RPG its FFV, and its characters are all equal... xD.
¿? There a lot of things that you need to think in FFVII to be a good player. Changing things its not that easy.
Changing have consecuences: It need time, and you only develop the materias that you use, well, this make an specialitzation of the skillset over the game advance, you just cant go changing materias every moment because you will have a lot of poor materias. You have to thinka lot to find the optimal combinations. Every materia its individual and only can be used if equiped, you dont learn nothing eternally...
Lol. When i play a game i think always to improve my skill. Thinking and planing in a rpg its basic. If you dont like this, max/min battle and strategic system, i dont know what you like. Just try playing an old game with some challengue, you wont pas the first dungeon without thinking in this things.
¿Unlimited resources? But if you have limited materia ranures, and materia its rare and cost a lot of money, and have handicap on stats. Even i think that handicaps stats and limitated ranures could be better in FFVII(if were more important) its sufficient to say that its not unlimited.
Back on topic: Even if commands aren´t unique, having some of then permament at least makes it so you need to think on what you must do rather than keep changing things at each five seconds. Also there are things a certain character would never do.
¿? There a lot of things that you need to think in FFVII to be a good player. Changing things its not that easy.
Changing have consecuences: It need time, and you only develop the materias that you use, well, this make an specialitzation of the skillset over the game advance, you just cant go changing materias every moment because you will have a lot of poor materias. You have to thinka lot to find the optimal combinations. Every materia its individual and only can be used if equiped, you dont learn nothing eternally...
That's the thing. I didn't have to do retarded shit just so that I could max out damage/second or some such to play FFVII. Whichever character you picked didn't matter - they were all blank slate avatars (so I picked the chicks so I could at least see boobs bounce).
Lol. When i play a game i think always to improve my skill. Thinking and planing in a rpg its basic. If you dont like this, max/min battle and strategic system, i dont know what you like. Just try playing an old game with some challengue, you wont pas the first dungeon without thinking in this things.
Blank slate avatars aren't a bad thing, though. At least depending on the game. But I didn't like the FF7 customization either. It essentially gave you unlimited resources which you can tune however you want. That's the issue with it. Blank slates with limited resources is much better, because you have to be more careful when customizing the character.
Most of the questions are just up to the creator, really. There isn't much discussion to be made here other than who has implemented a certain type of unique action into their project or how another game does it. It's a subset of the larger skill system altogether. That said, there needs to be unique skills in some shape or form so characters are different from one another. It's in the handbook of all good games.
¿Unlimited resources? But if you have limited materia ranures, and materia its rare and cost a lot of money, and have handicap on stats. Even i think that handicaps stats and limitated ranures could be better in FFVII(if were more important) its sufficient to say that its not unlimited.
Well, the point is not that the materia system doesn't have strategy, it's just that who you pick in your party is secondary to what materia you picked. Like, the game could have only 3 playable characters, and the gameplay experience would be pretty much the same as the game as it is now.
At least in FFVI in multiple playthroughs you could mix things up a bit in your party and the battles would play out differently. And in FFV the skills learned from the crystals were tied directly to the character so they still had defined roles and structure.
At least in FFVI in multiple playthroughs you could mix things up a bit in your party and the battles would play out differently. And in FFV the skills learned from the crystals were tied directly to the character so they still had defined roles and structure.
Clest
0
Alco, in FFV you din´t have spare party members to exchange :P
As for unlimited, the point is that when you level materia, whoever uses it will gain the benefit. Magicite not just require you to level up the magicite, but you had to level up the magicite WITH the character so it gave stats boost and skills accordingly.
As for unlimited, the point is that when you level materia, whoever uses it will gain the benefit. Magicite not just require you to level up the magicite, but you had to level up the magicite WITH the character so it gave stats boost and skills accordingly.
