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WHICH ENGINE TO USE FOR SNES STYLE?
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Karsa
349
Karsa
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CloseI want to make a narrative driven RPG similar in style to SNES games - 16x16 tiles, dark color scheme, etc. RM2K/3 had this style. The REFMAP tilesets fit this theme too. When I look at the newer RMs, I see they're too different in their style and it'd be painful to repurpose them for this style. Everything is a blocky autotile and there's less room in the tileset than there was in 2K/3. There's also that people nowadays like to play on phones and 2K/3's not compatible with that.
The question is, should I stick to 2003 or move on to a different engine altogether?
The question is, should I stick to 2003 or move on to a different engine altogether?
How important is it to you that players can play your game on a phone? Is this something that EasyRPG can assist with, if you go with 2K/2K3? How do you feel about using Ace?
I recently wanted to do the same thing, and was told that RPG Maker MZ is the best for this, because it has options to reconfigure the tile format, and it plays on modern computers/phones. (You might need to draw in 16x16 or 24x24 and just resize your drawings to 32x32 or 48x48.)
Although, there are a few things to keep in mind... like: 1. as much as we'd like them to, an audience typically does not care about how a game looks in that specific detail. They just care how it looks overall, and how it plays; and, 2. years will pass as you work on your game, maybe even decades, and by the time you're finished, people might have moved on from the platform you programmed it for!
Another thing to consider, is that EasyRPG, which is available for phones, can play RPG Maker 2003 games. Although, you also have to be ready for what I mentioned above... 2003 is already 20 years old, and by the time you finish a game, it might be 25 or 30 years old. Will EasyRPG still be supported by phones? Will people still be able to play it? Will they care? (How will attitudes towards old-looking video games change in 5-10 years?)
Although, there are a few things to keep in mind... like: 1. as much as we'd like them to, an audience typically does not care about how a game looks in that specific detail. They just care how it looks overall, and how it plays; and, 2. years will pass as you work on your game, maybe even decades, and by the time you're finished, people might have moved on from the platform you programmed it for!
Another thing to consider, is that EasyRPG, which is available for phones, can play RPG Maker 2003 games. Although, you also have to be ready for what I mentioned above... 2003 is already 20 years old, and by the time you finish a game, it might be 25 or 30 years old. Will EasyRPG still be supported by phones? Will people still be able to play it? Will they care? (How will attitudes towards old-looking video games change in 5-10 years?)
If you use the TileD plugin, you should be able to use any graphics you want on MV without having to scale them, and I'm pretty sure there's something similar for MZ.
https://archeia.itch.io/tiled-plugin-for-rpg-maker-mv
But basically, any of them will replicate the SNES look if you're willing to put in the work.
https://archeia.itch.io/tiled-plugin-for-rpg-maker-mv
But basically, any of them will replicate the SNES look if you're willing to put in the work.
Karsa
349
The game being multiplatform is not an absolute must, and I do share the worries of 2003 becoming too old. I'm skeptical at the same time, since I kept hearing 2003 games won't even run on Windows 10 and they still do. I heard of easyRPG player. Last time I checked (years ago) it had trouble emulating more complex events (such as custom systems) and the maniacs patch.
The thing is, I can pull off a lot with 2003 already - Chrono Trigger like battlesystem (no map transition, chareset animations), multilevel maps (making you able to walk under and on a bridge without having to make a separate map for that), custom menu and stats systems (with using variables as improvised "arrays"). A lot of this involves tricks and workarounds. VX Ace and up would require to reprogram a lot of systems since some features are missing which were in 2000/3, and I'd rather not rely on other people's works (plugins) and using a bunch of 3rd party software (detailed mapping is very important to me - not parallax mapping). In that case, I'd either write a game from the ground up (already considered using pygames for that) or look for another engine.
As for the game I want to make: its story is more of a niche genre. I don't expect it to connect with many people, nor is it my goal to make a game just for it to become popular. So I don't have concerns about not everyone being able to play it.
So what would you recommend? I'm fine with sticking to 2003 if the learning curve of other engines would be too steep. VX Ace and above don't resonate well with me, I'd rather stay away from those.
The thing is, I can pull off a lot with 2003 already - Chrono Trigger like battlesystem (no map transition, chareset animations), multilevel maps (making you able to walk under and on a bridge without having to make a separate map for that), custom menu and stats systems (with using variables as improvised "arrays"). A lot of this involves tricks and workarounds. VX Ace and up would require to reprogram a lot of systems since some features are missing which were in 2000/3, and I'd rather not rely on other people's works (plugins) and using a bunch of 3rd party software (detailed mapping is very important to me - not parallax mapping). In that case, I'd either write a game from the ground up (already considered using pygames for that) or look for another engine.
As for the game I want to make: its story is more of a niche genre. I don't expect it to connect with many people, nor is it my goal to make a game just for it to become popular. So I don't have concerns about not everyone being able to play it.
So what would you recommend? I'm fine with sticking to 2003 if the learning curve of other engines would be too steep. VX Ace and above don't resonate well with me, I'd rather stay away from those.
By saying that Ace and up don't resonate with you, and would rather stay away from them, doesn't that answer your question right there?
Karsa
349
Not quite, since engines other than RPG Maker exist too. In fact, even this site features discussions for unity, for example.
Darken
3952
Godot, Gamemaker, Unity or any general purpose engine can easily do SNES style, the only deal breaker is really whether or not you want to leave the comfort of RM or if you're going to bounce off after the second programming tutorial. The more I talk to people about this the less it's about "is this a good engine alternative?" and more "will this click with me?" which is harder to answer. If you're asking the question though you should just try them, it's not like 2k3 will delete itself the moment you switch to another engine.
To me Starless Umbra is the strongest case for a SNES style RPG done in GM. But you very easily do in the other engines.
If you're making CBSes and using every ounce of the maniac patch to make things happen, then I seriously doubt you wouldn't be able to pick up a built in scripting language like Game Maker Language or Godot Script. Unity requires C# which is a bit extra but hey more performant I guess and will get you a job if you get decent at it.
I really like Godot because UI is insanely easy compared to the others, you barely need to code them aside from signal inputs. Which I think is especially key for an RPG with lots of menus. It's also completely open source and free which is the least baggage/paywall of the other main two.
To me Starless Umbra is the strongest case for a SNES style RPG done in GM. But you very easily do in the other engines.
If you're making CBSes and using every ounce of the maniac patch to make things happen, then I seriously doubt you wouldn't be able to pick up a built in scripting language like Game Maker Language or Godot Script. Unity requires C# which is a bit extra but hey more performant I guess and will get you a job if you get decent at it.
I really like Godot because UI is insanely easy compared to the others, you barely need to code them aside from signal inputs. Which I think is especially key for an RPG with lots of menus. It's also completely open source and free which is the least baggage/paywall of the other main two.
I'm really terrible at programming and ironically couldn't figure out the unity engine for the life of me even tho I had a book walking me through it.
I should really give Godot a try tho, heard a lot of good about it and maybe I could wrap my brain around the easier UI
I should really give Godot a try tho, heard a lot of good about it and maybe I could wrap my brain around the easier UI
I'm seemingly forever stuck in the "I want to move to a non-RM engine but I work a full time job that has nothing to do with programming and RM is the only way I can reasonably finish anything" club.
I don't know how many people are in that club, per se. But I'm in it.
I don't know how many people are in that club, per se. But I'm in it.
Darken
3952
Yeah I wish I could list some 1 2 3 steps, but it's different for every person. I'm very undisciplined and have a chaos brain and likely just fell into it. My personal breakthrough was making a sidescroller without any jumping/gravity, a Kung-Fu clone if you will. In a two week jam in gamemaker, but then from there I could just make any game I wanted. Just look up a tutorial with the related genre you want to do it in, if you can't program a mechanic properly or something messes up just skip it/use another tutorial and get a game done by any means, don't be afraid to use "bad programming" practices or copy paste code or whatever (at least at first).
If you don't want to upscale graphics to work with newer Makers (which you don't have to with MV and MZ because there are plugins that let you change the size of the tile grid; I linked you one), then you're probably not going to be too enthusiastic with how long it takes in other engines just to get graphics into the runtime environment.
I do work with Unity from time to time and for every project I do in it, I have to spend a couple of days figuring out the best way to put graphics into my project. Then, if I do 2D, I have to set up the tile system and install the individual tiles into it manually. Once it's set up, it's really easy, but that setup time is tedious. For every project, you have to teach Unity how sprites walk and move, and you have to do it frame by frame. Nothing is automatic in the engine. You have to cut all the sprite and tile sheets yourself. You have to do the same thing in GameMaker, although I think the way GameMaker does it is a little easier, but it's a dedicated 2D system.
If you're most comfortable with 2K3 then I don't understand the problem. You're not trying to go big, so what does it matter if you don't make the game for mobile? And like Marrend said, you can even solve that problem by using EasyRPG, although, I get your point about how well it emulates. I've never used it, and if it had that issue, I'd be leary, too. Again, there's always TileD applied to MV, or the equivalent applied to MZ (which I think is also called TileD), and MV and MZ are both mobile-ready, and unlike VX Ace, you can actually use any resolution you want. So, with MV and TileD, you can use 2k3 graphics as is, without alteration.
I like RPG Maker VX Ace, but these days, I've been making more games in 2000 and 2003 because I frankly like them more. They pose a challenge that I enjoy when figuring out how to create systems that you shouldn't practically be able to do with the tools as presented. I like the way the games look, although I could do that style in any engine, like you said, other engines need the graphics upscaled or need a plugin to work like that.
And compatibility is a non-issue. Anyone having the problem just needs to type "compatibility mode" into Windows search and figure out how it works.
I do work with Unity from time to time and for every project I do in it, I have to spend a couple of days figuring out the best way to put graphics into my project. Then, if I do 2D, I have to set up the tile system and install the individual tiles into it manually. Once it's set up, it's really easy, but that setup time is tedious. For every project, you have to teach Unity how sprites walk and move, and you have to do it frame by frame. Nothing is automatic in the engine. You have to cut all the sprite and tile sheets yourself. You have to do the same thing in GameMaker, although I think the way GameMaker does it is a little easier, but it's a dedicated 2D system.
If you're most comfortable with 2K3 then I don't understand the problem. You're not trying to go big, so what does it matter if you don't make the game for mobile? And like Marrend said, you can even solve that problem by using EasyRPG, although, I get your point about how well it emulates. I've never used it, and if it had that issue, I'd be leary, too. Again, there's always TileD applied to MV, or the equivalent applied to MZ (which I think is also called TileD), and MV and MZ are both mobile-ready, and unlike VX Ace, you can actually use any resolution you want. So, with MV and TileD, you can use 2k3 graphics as is, without alteration.
I like RPG Maker VX Ace, but these days, I've been making more games in 2000 and 2003 because I frankly like them more. They pose a challenge that I enjoy when figuring out how to create systems that you shouldn't practically be able to do with the tools as presented. I like the way the games look, although I could do that style in any engine, like you said, other engines need the graphics upscaled or need a plugin to work like that.
And compatibility is a non-issue. Anyone having the problem just needs to type "compatibility mode" into Windows search and figure out how it works.
author=pianotmI always hear people saying this and I wonder what I'm doing wrong because in my experience MV is definitely NOT mobile-ready. I don't know about MZ because I don't own it.
and MV and MZ are both mobile-ready
Not only does exporting to mobile give you nothing you can actually use on it's own (you need to learn how to use Android Studio in order to even begin considering making a mobile build, and that is very much not begginer friendly, or at least not stupid friendly because I certainly could never do it), but you are also constricted in what kind of gameplay you can have (afaik there are conditions to be met in order to make a mobile build related to controls, filetypes, and amount of data you can use) AND you will have to pay excruciating attention to optimization. I don't know a lot of people who feel comfortable downloading a +400MB game on their phones, despite how much storage people may have, and most MV exports do very little to compress.
Finally I'd like to add a personal point of curiosity in that I'm not sure why anybody would want to put a narrative driven SNES style RPG on phones. Imo the target audience for that kind of product is not found a lot in the mobile space, most phone players I know are not the type to get immersed for hours on phone gaming but rather leans towards a preference for quick gameplay loops to use in idle moments, such as waiting for the bus or while on the toilet.
I have tried finding and playing RPGs on phone, but again they usually have a different kind of gameplay that is more finger involved and less reading. Idk, just something to think about.
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