I HATE WHITE MAGES

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author=Red_Nova
I've been playing Etrian Odyssey Nexus, and I can point to the Arcanist class and say "Do this. This is cool!"


This is something I thought of while reading all these posts: it kinda feels like the Healer/White Mage HAS been solved into a more dynamic and interesting class many times over, like this Arcanist. The issue is more that games can't help but also include this dedicated White Mage, which lessens the viability of the more interesting versions simply through its inevitability.
author=kentona
author=DungeonDevDude
I’ve been playing with a class in my new game where the character punches the life force out of the enemy, which in turn heals the party.

I’m still testing it, but the idea is the class heals by inflicting as much damage as they can.

The Paladin class in Angry Birds Epic had this skill. It was pretty great. Damage dealt would heal the entire party a % of the damage.
author=kentona
author=DungeonDevDude
I’ve been playing with a class in my new game where the character punches the life force out of the enemy, which in turn heals the party.

I’m still testing it, but the idea is the class heals by inflicting as much damage as they can.

The Paladin class in Angry Birds Epic had this skill. It was pretty great. Damage dealt would heal the entire party a % of the damage.


I never thought I would have a reason to check out that game, but here we go
Lots of great discussion here. I'll add my two cents for how I solved this problem for my game.

In Raiders of Ruin, the party is fully healed after every battle. Each battle is its own challenge, so the 'attrition' aspect of annoyingly having to spam healing spells after each fight is gone. Instead, the cleric's role is to keep the party alive for the duration of one fight. To make that interesting, there is no way to restore MP in battle whatsoever, so you need to be careful using it. There are also different degrees of healing spells, with cheaper spells being more MP-efficient but less turn-efficient. Can you afford to spend a bunch of MP to heal the party in one turn, or should you use two turns to heal with the more efficient, slower spells?

Finally, the decision to include one or more healers in your party in the first place is an interesting one. The game lets you swap classes any time you like, so it's up to you to decide how much of your team you can dedicate to offence, and how much you should be focusing on healing. The "white mage" class slot itself is a resource to be managed, in addition to the white mage's MP. In short, make turn-to-turn decisions really matter.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
author=Red_Nova
I think I found the answer! I was going to respond to a lot of the good points that were brought up, but they've all given me so much to think about that responding to them all would take a novel. That's on me for not replying to this topic sooner. Oops.

I've been playing Etrian Odyssey Nexus, and I can point to the Arcanist class and say "Do this. This is cool!" Arcanist class is not a dedicated healer, but they can be built to both contribute to damage and supporting the party at the same time. See, the main function of the Arcanist is to drop one of a variety of magic Circles down on the field. At the end of each turn, the Circle will attempt to inflict a status ailment like paralysis or poison on all enemies and provide decent healing to the party until it wears out or is replaced by another Circle. For added flexibility, the Arcanist has skills that consume the Circle prematurely to either damage enemies or heal allies.

The Circle solution solves just about every problem I had with white mages listed in the original post. Not only will the Circle take care of healing automatically, but they can still contribute to the fight directly by applying status ailments and damaging enemies by consuming the circle if it isn't needed anymore. This extra step not only requires just enough thought from the player to keep them from falling into a monotonous slog without requiring battles to be overly challenging, but gives the class breathing room to have more utility in battle without sacrificing their role as the healer. In my mind, this makes the healer architype an interesting and fun class to use.

In addition to the Arcanist, there are a surprising number of classes in Nexus that can perform healing as a sub function without sacrificing their primary roles. I picked out Arcanist specifically because it's the next closest thing to a white mage other than the actual white mage class, but I highly recommend looking at Etrian Odyssey Nexus in general because there is a lot of cool ideas condensed into one game.

I'm glad you found your answer, but I admit I'm a bit miffed about this reply.

I know you didn't do it on purpose but it makes it sound like you just dismissed all the posts because you found the justification for your "white-mage-hate™" elsewhere :D

While at the same time justifying the death of old school forums in favor of discord, due to the ephemeral nature of its discussions.

Not a big deal though, just wanted to put this out there.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=iddalai
I'm glad you found your answer, but I admit I'm a bit miffed about this reply.

I know you didn't do it on purpose but it makes it sound like you just dismissed all the posts because you found the justification for your "white-mage-hate™" elsewhere :D

While at the same time justifying the death of old school forums in favor of discord, due to the ephemeral nature of its discussions.

Not a big deal though, just wanted to put this out there.


I dunno, I don't think Red needed to personally respond to everyone's posts individually. There was a lot of great discussion here, and a lot of food for thought. The ideas everyone brought to the table is the important stuff in my opinion.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I did not mean to dismiss anyone's opinion here. If I gave that impression, I apologize. Like I said in my last post, there was a lot to think about on those topics, and each suggestion and idea that worked within their games all had systems built to support them. Despite the very tongue-in-cheek title, I believe healers have their place in RPGs because there is no universal "right" way to go about healing. Each idea presented has bonuses and drawbacks to consider, and finding one that works for a game will always be an ongoing process the more games you design.

But hey, if you're looking for more discussion, feel free to respond to any of the other posts here. Anyone can respond to anyone in this thread if they so wish! I may have started the topic, but it's not like I'm the only one who's allowed to reply to people.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
author=unity
I dunno, I don't think Red needed to personally respond to everyone's posts individually. There was a lot of great discussion here, and a lot of food for thought. The ideas everyone brought to the table is the important stuff in my opinion.

I agree that Red_Nova doesn't need to personally reply to every post, and if it sounded like I did, then it wasn't my intention.

However, I don't feel that just bringing ideas to table is enough, there should be a bit more discussion around said ideas. A problem to which I'm a part of, I admit.

I wouldn't say there was a lot of discussion here, though. Not from my perspective.

author=Red_Nova
I did not mean to dismiss anyone's opinion here. If I gave that impression, I apologize. Like I said in my last post, there was a lot to think about on those topics, and each suggestion and idea that worked within their games all had systems built to support them. Despite the very tongue-in-cheek title, I believe healers have their place in RPGs because there is no universal "right" way to go about healing. Each idea presented has bonuses and drawbacks to consider, and finding one that works for a game will always be an ongoing process the more games you design.

But hey, if you're looking for more discussion, feel free to respond to any of the other posts here. Anyone can respond to anyone in this thread if they so wish! I may have started the topic, but it's not like I'm the only one who's allowed to reply to people.

This is what I needed to hear, honestly. I can relate a bit more with this post.
Thanks for that.

Yes, that's a good point, that anyone can reply to each other, it didn't occur to me since we were all mostly replying to the points you brought up in your initial post, so it seemed redundant to me.

I may just do that later on.

EDIT: well, it's 2023 and no one seems interested in discussing this anymore, so I think it's best if I use my time elsewhere instead of replying to everyone's points.
Marrend
Guardian of the Description Thread
21781
I'm in the middle of playing a little ditty I came across called Saiyuki - Journey West. This is a PS1 tactical strategy game adaptation of the classic Chinese novel Journey to the West. I bring this up because the central character, Sanzo, is a priest, and therefore, comes with a healing spell. However, spells in this game are handled as scrolls that can be equipped, and some shops sell such scrolls. I suppose it's kinda like Runes in Suikoden, if Runes could be attached and removed from the Equip scene, and not rely solely on on Jeane Runemasters.

Anyway, Sanzo doesn't necessarily have to take the "healer" role. It could be Goku/Wukong, Hakkai/Bajie, or, theoretically, any member of the party. Though, the fact that if Sanzo gets KOed, it's GAME OVER, might point players in the direction of keeping the initial heal scroll on Sanzo.

I will note that Sanzo gains various summons throughout the game, and these summons apply both a party-wide bonus (such as HP regen), and adds a skill to Sanzo's repertoire for three turns. The skills that they gain this way tend to be offensive skills, which is a kind of interesting parallel. Like, this game was made in 2001, and Final Fantasy 9, which also included characters who were White Mages that had a Summon ability, and was made in 2000.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
If skills can be freely swapped between characters, then there isn't really a defined "healer" archetype unless you make your own. In that case, most issues with healers don't apply since you can just assign whatever skills you want.

Though the concern about healing having summons that can do other stuff is intriguing. Couple that with MC death = game over, I'd argue that it's a good idea to put the healing spell on someone other than Sanzo. I'm not familiar with Saiyuki's battle system, but that heal skill can be added to someone else to give Sanzo the room they need to get their offense going with their summons.
Yes I'm bringing this back.

So I just designed a new class for the game I'm making called the Crusader. The game includes skill trees, so you can kind of design your own build for the character if you want, but the idea with the Crusader is that he's a dedicated healer in one of his trees. However, the way his healing works is a little unique.

Instead of directly healing allies, one of his capstone abilities allows him to share half of his HP regen with the entire party. That whole tree focuses on buffing his max HP and his regen, and he's got another tree that focuses on his action skill, which also gives hp regen to himself. The capstone for that tree allows him to use the skill on any ally instead, if he chooses.

When these trees synergize, they can create a situation where the entire party gets pretty ridiculous HP regen over time, but there isn't really any specific group healing spell that can be spammed, which frees up the Crusaders actions to allow him to attack. His entire left skill tree focuses on his damage output to make him useful in combat as well.

I think there's nothing wrong with having a dedicated healer, but the question becomes, how do you prevent healing skills from being the optimal turn order? I think this should work as a solution. I'm eager to see how it'll work in the final product.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Strak just spent a turn casting revive on this thread. The humiliation of a healer taking a turn to revive a thread about why I hate healers is palpable.

Anyway, I'm eager to see how the Crusader works out, too! The class sounds cool on paper, but balancing it sounds difficult depending on how much investment is needed before sharing half of a character's regen becomes viable.

I think there's nothing wrong with having a dedicated healer, but the question becomes, how do you prevent healing skills from being the optimal turn order?


Dropping the hyperbole that my original post implies, having healing skills being the optimal action for a turn isn't really a problem. The problem is when healing skills becomes the only option for a healer. Sounds like your Crusader fixes that problem!
I've lately been liking the idea of sticking a HoT on a single character without costing a turn, but it could be interchanged with a general non healing buff in case there's no healing to be done. Not really a healer fix per say but games like Child of Light has me thinking about going outside the bounds of turns to make things more interesting.
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