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Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Red_Nova
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Closehttps://www.inverse.com/gaming/jrpg-meaning-offensive-naoki-yoshida
A bit late to the party, but for those that aren't aware: Naoki Yoshida (producer of Final Fantasy XVI), made a statement that the term "JRPG" was used as a derogatory word:
I'm conflicted on what to do about this. On one hand, the wishes of the group originally targeted by the term should be heard and respected. Categorizing an entire genre of games based on the country it came from does have a slight segregationist smell to it.
On the other hand, language changes with time, and the term simply doesn't have the negative connotation that it used to (quite the opposite, actually!) in the wider world. I know of similar situations where terms that were once used as derogatory are now used normally or even as a sign of respect. Also, I wouldn't know what we would replace it with if we were to retire the term.
So what do you think? Should the term JRPG be phased out? If so, what should it be replaced with?
A bit late to the party, but for those that aren't aware: Naoki Yoshida (producer of Final Fantasy XVI), made a statement that the term "JRPG" was used as a derogatory word:
“For us as developers , the first time we heard it, it was like a discriminatory term,” explained Yoshida. “It’s as though we were being made fun of for creating these games. So for some developers, the term JRPG can be something that will maybe trigger bad feelings because of what it was in the past.”
I'm conflicted on what to do about this. On one hand, the wishes of the group originally targeted by the term should be heard and respected. Categorizing an entire genre of games based on the country it came from does have a slight segregationist smell to it.
On the other hand, language changes with time, and the term simply doesn't have the negative connotation that it used to (quite the opposite, actually!) in the wider world. I know of similar situations where terms that were once used as derogatory are now used normally or even as a sign of respect. Also, I wouldn't know what we would replace it with if we were to retire the term.
So what do you think? Should the term JRPG be phased out? If so, what should it be replaced with?
No. The whole article just reads like someone wanting to stir a pot for the sake of it. There's almost no substance to this guy's "argument" beyond Yoshida saying it was seen as offensive in the past and "this one time Phil Fish was a racist".
Also there's definitely such a thing as a WRPG. I can't be the only person who's used that label and seen it be used to refer to games like the TES/Fallout series or things like Dragon Age, The Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur etc. It's about as loosely defined as JRPG but it definitely exists, in the same way any random genre labelling "exists".
Just like there are SRPGS... Some people use the term CRPG. It's just an organizational label like any other genre in videogames or movies or what have you. It'd be like saying we should retire the term "OVA" just cause it's used near exclusively to refer to Japanese animation.
Seems like much ado about nothing to me.
Also there's definitely such a thing as a WRPG. I can't be the only person who's used that label and seen it be used to refer to games like the TES/Fallout series or things like Dragon Age, The Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur etc. It's about as loosely defined as JRPG but it definitely exists, in the same way any random genre labelling "exists".
Just like there are SRPGS... Some people use the term CRPG. It's just an organizational label like any other genre in videogames or movies or what have you. It'd be like saying we should retire the term "OVA" just cause it's used near exclusively to refer to Japanese animation.
Seems like much ado about nothing to me.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
The difference between JRPG and WRPG is that the former refers to a single country and the latter refers to half of a planet. Why would Japan be the only country that gets a classification? It's almost like there's something *different* about Japanese games that means that they need a genre that singles them out specifically. Also, while Phil Fish was absolutely out of line with his statement, it's worth noting that no one else on the panel disagreed with him.
In my experience, WRPG is a catch all term used for anything that isn't JRPG. Kinda like "Oh no, Elder Scrolls isn't one of THOSE RPGs." If anyone ever described a game I was making as an American RPG, I'd definitely have to do a double take to figure out exactly what they mean, so I would at least understand why a Japanese dev would feel the way they did.
Obviously, Yoshida doesn't speak for the entirety of Japan, so it could be that most Japanese are actually fine with the term. I'm not aware of any other Japanese developers speaking up in support or opposition to his statement, so all I can really talk about is from an westerner's perspective.
In my experience, WRPG is a catch all term used for anything that isn't JRPG. Kinda like "Oh no, Elder Scrolls isn't one of THOSE RPGs." If anyone ever described a game I was making as an American RPG, I'd definitely have to do a double take to figure out exactly what they mean, so I would at least understand why a Japanese dev would feel the way they did.
Obviously, Yoshida doesn't speak for the entirety of Japan, so it could be that most Japanese are actually fine with the term. I'm not aware of any other Japanese developers speaking up in support or opposition to his statement, so all I can really talk about is from an westerner's perspective.
I agree, as someone who has used the JRPG term forever, in a loving way, it is a bit shocking to hear this news.
I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I've never used the term with anything but respect to the people who make these games that I love. It's also been used so long that it's deeply established as a way to say "a character-driven RPG" or an RPG with a certain set of tropes/expectations.
On the other hand, it is a bit weird to label a genre after a country, esp as lots of devs outside of Japan (tho mostly indies) desire to create games that evoke that feeling. It's also not accurately descriptive of the genre. To steal an argument I heard elsewhere, Dark Souls and Elden Ring are, technically, JRPGs. They are RPGs made in Japan. But they are not part of the JRPG genre because they are different games who do different things (ie action rpgs, which are different from JRPGs despite the country of origin).
In the same vein, the term WRPG or Western RPG (tho I rarely hear the term used these days) is just as odd, people outside of the west can and have made games styled this way, so the name is also a little strange to me.
I definitely think examining all this is worthwhile at least to some degree, but it may be hard to change much at this stage. There are people who have disliked the fact that "Metroidvana" as a genre is basically just named after two games and have wanted it changed for years, but it's an easily recognized label that is quick to grasp and that people still use. Much the same, the name JRPG is now deeply entrenched, used as tags on Steam and elsewhere, so I'm not sure it's going to be changed so easily.
With all that said, my one takeaway is that it's legit sad that people like Yoshida and others who work and worked in the industry in Japan found this as a hurtful term. Even if it wasn't being used that way by many of us, the fact that they felt singled out by it sucks. I don't know if the label of JRPG will ever go away, but this did make me think hard about it and yeah I'm not 100% sure it's a good label at this point.
Will I use it in the future? Again, I can't exactly say I won't, as Steam uses it as a tag to find games like that, and if I want people to find my games, I need to label the genre, and there's currently not an alternative. But personally I think it's worth mulling over.
I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I've never used the term with anything but respect to the people who make these games that I love. It's also been used so long that it's deeply established as a way to say "a character-driven RPG" or an RPG with a certain set of tropes/expectations.
On the other hand, it is a bit weird to label a genre after a country, esp as lots of devs outside of Japan (tho mostly indies) desire to create games that evoke that feeling. It's also not accurately descriptive of the genre. To steal an argument I heard elsewhere, Dark Souls and Elden Ring are, technically, JRPGs. They are RPGs made in Japan. But they are not part of the JRPG genre because they are different games who do different things (ie action rpgs, which are different from JRPGs despite the country of origin).
In the same vein, the term WRPG or Western RPG (tho I rarely hear the term used these days) is just as odd, people outside of the west can and have made games styled this way, so the name is also a little strange to me.
I definitely think examining all this is worthwhile at least to some degree, but it may be hard to change much at this stage. There are people who have disliked the fact that "Metroidvana" as a genre is basically just named after two games and have wanted it changed for years, but it's an easily recognized label that is quick to grasp and that people still use. Much the same, the name JRPG is now deeply entrenched, used as tags on Steam and elsewhere, so I'm not sure it's going to be changed so easily.
With all that said, my one takeaway is that it's legit sad that people like Yoshida and others who work and worked in the industry in Japan found this as a hurtful term. Even if it wasn't being used that way by many of us, the fact that they felt singled out by it sucks. I don't know if the label of JRPG will ever go away, but this did make me think hard about it and yeah I'm not 100% sure it's a good label at this point.
Will I use it in the future? Again, I can't exactly say I won't, as Steam uses it as a tag to find games like that, and if I want people to find my games, I need to label the genre, and there's currently not an alternative. But personally I think it's worth mulling over.
Shinan
4314
I think I saw Jim Sterling's video on this. There's definitely something to think about, but the interesting thing is that places like this have not really used the term in a disparaging manner (except for me but I also say "anime" disparagingly.) so I don't even know where the negative connotation comes from (except from the part where they are anime games and all anime is shit)
Maybe we shouldn't talk about Anime either since it's all shit and using the word anime immediately means something is shit.
I don't even know what version of JRPG is meant when it's.... disparaging. Has it become a trend to call every RPG coming out of Japanese developers JRPGs even when they're not. (I would not call japanese action rpgs like Dark Souls and Zelda JRPGs)
Though I will say I've always been partial to calling the JRPGs adventure games with battles instead of inventory puzzles. But it's a bit long...
Maybe we shouldn't talk about Anime either since it's all shit and using the word anime immediately means something is shit.
I don't even know what version of JRPG is meant when it's.... disparaging. Has it become a trend to call every RPG coming out of Japanese developers JRPGs even when they're not. (I would not call japanese action rpgs like Dark Souls and Zelda JRPGs)
Though I will say I've always been partial to calling the JRPGs adventure games with battles instead of inventory puzzles. But it's a bit long...
author=Shinan
I think I saw Jim Sterling's video on this. There's definitely something to think about, but the interesting thing is that places like this have not really used the term in a disparaging manner (except for me but I also say "anime" disparagingly.) so I don't even know where the negative connotation comes from (except from the part where they are anime games and all anime is shit)
Yeah, and the people using it disparagingly were mostly assholes who just didn't like the genre 20 years ago. Language evolves and changes, and I'm pretty sure it's 99.999% just used as a descriptor and not an insult these days.
Shinan
4314
And even back then I think the people using it disparagingly were in the minority. I just don't have a sense that it has ever been a negatively charged word outside of... you know... people like me.
To steal an argument I heard elsewhere, Dark Souls and Elden Ring are, technically, JRPGs. They are RPGs made in Japan. But they are not part of the JRPG genre because they are different games who do different things (ie action rpgs, which are different from JRPGs despite the country of origin).
I mean that's it, that's a better way of saying what I was trying to get across re: WRPG or SRPG or what have you. They've become labels representing mechanical choices, even if the term originally meant "where the game was made" (which I don't even know if it ever did, like Shinan mentioned, I've never seen it used as a negative because it's related to Japan.) I don't really think people consider it like that nowadays.
The article doesn't mention it, but Yoshida said more on the topic as well:
"It wasn't a compliment to a lot of developers in Japan. We understand that recently, JRPG has better connotations and it's being used as a positive but we still remember the time when it was used as a negative,"
Source: LINK
I'd definitely like to hear other Japanese devs opinions on it before I made a sweeping decision. It seems like he was talking about solely the past based on all the quotes of the interview, not that it was a current problem, but something that reminded older devs of how it felt back in the day.
Consider as well the meaning of "CRPG" - Computer Role Playing Game. But we don't use it to refer to every RPG on a computer, even if that's what the name sounds like. Those who use it are usually referring to adaptations of DnD campaigns and other tabletop systems.
E:
author=Shinan
And even back then I think the people using it disparagingly were in the minority. I just don't have a sense that it has ever been a negatively charged word outside of... you know... people like me.
Literally the only person I can think of who might have used it as an insult would be like... Adam Sessler from XPlay? But that dude was a dickhead anyways. 99% of the people I've seen that used it in a negative fashion were doing so cause they didn't like the mechanics, not cause they hated Japanese people lmao
Darken
3952
I can see why the term comes off as derogatory after all games like dragon quest and final fantasy cited ultima and wizardry as their biggest inspiration or even DnD. The NES market demanded a streamlined experience especially with the two face button layout. Even the RPGmaker games made today only need confirm and cancel for most interactions. Which guide a lot of the UX principles such as not needing to know stats or fuck up making a bad custom character. But from a certain perspective streamlining wouldnt be enough to box an entire lineage of games just like that.
Console RPGS would be apt until Bioware enacted a very simular trend but even started taking out a lot of the strategic aspects of RPGs. Which... is the same for the latest FFs not even bothering with turn based. So idk I think JRPG is still as useful as "anime" even if the animation industry is becoming more and more international. Genres are really just marketing terms. Some millennial weeb might not appreciate Warhammer 40k looking stuff but if you say JRPG its like oh okay I know exactly what youre talking about. I can see just Anime RPG since that includes in the Tales of franchise of games easily but term proliferation is everything.
Console RPGS would be apt until Bioware enacted a very simular trend but even started taking out a lot of the strategic aspects of RPGs. Which... is the same for the latest FFs not even bothering with turn based. So idk I think JRPG is still as useful as "anime" even if the animation industry is becoming more and more international. Genres are really just marketing terms. Some millennial weeb might not appreciate Warhammer 40k looking stuff but if you say JRPG its like oh okay I know exactly what youre talking about. I can see just Anime RPG since that includes in the Tales of franchise of games easily but term proliferation is everything.
author=Roden
I'd definitely like to hear other Japanese devs opinions on it before I made a sweeping decision. It seems like he was talking about solely the past based on all the quotes of the interview, not that it was a current problem, but something that reminded older devs of how it felt back in the day.
This is a good point. Rushing to redefine everything after hearing one person's opinion may be a bit hasty (tho I don't doubt his claims that other devs felt the same).
I would also be very curious to hear what other Japanese devs think, but not only that, Japanese fans of the genre who aren't devs themselves. Do they just call them RPGs? How do they differentiate something like Final Fantasy 7 from something like Skyrim or Dark Souls? It would be interesting to find out.
author=Darken
Console RPGS would be apt until Bioware enacted a very simular trend but even started taking out a lot of the strategic aspects of RPGs. Which... is the same for the latest FFs not even bothering with turn based. So idk I think JRPG is still as useful as "anime" even if the animation industry is becoming more and more international. Genres are really just marketing terms. Some millennial weeb might not appreciate Warhammer 40k looking stuff but if you say JRPG its like oh okay I know exactly what youre talking about. I can see just Anime RPG since that includes in the Tales of franchise of games easily but term proliferation is everything.
Yeah this cuts to the heart of it. It's a useful term regardless. It's going to be very hard to find something to replace it with that will be widely embraced. Not ruling anything out, I just want to restate that once these things become solid terms for decades, it's unlikely that something new will replace them.
Shinan
4314
I feel like it sort of used to be that it was CRPGs (computer rpgs) vs CRPGs (console rpgs). But then everything became multiplatform and computer rpgs became wrpgs and console rpgs became jrpgs.
I remember in like high school or something I was really interested in the break between crpgs and jrpgs. Because the earliest ones of either were very similar (are Ultima and Dragon Quest that different?) but they evolved into very different beasts (Final Fantasy 7 and Baldur's Gate 2 are very different).
I remember in like high school or something I was really interested in the break between crpgs and jrpgs. Because the earliest ones of either were very similar (are Ultima and Dragon Quest that different?) but they evolved into very different beasts (Final Fantasy 7 and Baldur's Gate 2 are very different).
LordBlueRouge
2143
author=Roden
No. The whole article just reads like someone wanting to stir a pot for the sake of it.There's almost no substance to this guy's "argument" beyond Yoshida saying it
YES!!100% what Roden said
this quote is entirely being taken out of context here, and you should actually read the original interview and what he's saying there:
(time stamped for clarity)
Please read from trusted sources next time. They've been pulling apart things Yoshi-P has been saying, since development on FF16 began. Every other gaming news site is preying on you, to react this way for engagement.
Please stop falling for it.
Dyhalto
7536
BlueRouge beat me to the corrective punch so I'll just be a troll.
Don't care. Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger are jRPGs. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
But for what it's worth, the fact that a popular subgenre of game has been attributed to your country and the rest of the world's developers seek to emulate it should be a point of pride, not derision.
Don't care. Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger are jRPGs. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
But for what it's worth, the fact that a popular subgenre of game has been attributed to your country and the rest of the world's developers seek to emulate it should be a point of pride, not derision.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Shinan
I think I saw Jim Sterling's video on this. There's definitely something to think about, but the interesting thing is that places like this have not really used the term in a disparaging manner (except for me but I also say "anime" disparagingly.) so I don't even know where the negative connotation comes from (except from the part where they are anime games and all anime is shit)
I'd be shocked to see anyone on this site refer to JRPG as derogatory, lol. Outside of niches like RMN, I see this a lot more often. Even now, I still get weird looks from people when I mention I'm into "that Japanese crap."
I definitely think examining all this is worthwhile at least to some degree, but it may be hard to change much at this stage. There are people who have disliked the fact that "Metroidvana" as a genre is basically just named after two games and have wanted it changed for years, but it's an easily recognized label that is quick to grasp and that people still use. Much the same, the name JRPG is now deeply entrenched, used as tags on Steam and elsewhere, so I'm not sure it's going to be changed so easily.
Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts in general now. Even if we wanted to change it, it likely won't happen. If I took command of all terminology for a day, I'd remove both JRPG and WRPG from everyone's vocabulary and instead stick to gameplay mechanics to define genres like Turn-based RPG or Action RPG.
But I'm can't, so....
this quote is entirely being taken out of context here, and you should actually read the original interview and what he's saying there:
(time stamped for clarify)
Appreciate the better source, but I think my points still stand. Of course Japanese devs don't go into the process thinking they're going to make a "JRPG" because, from their perspective, it's just an RPG. Of course Yoshi-P recognizes that nowadays it's not used as a derogatory term. It doesn't change the fact that it was a derogatory term in the past, or that it's strange that a genre of games is defined by its country of origin rather than its gameplay mechanics.
it's strange that a genre of games is defined by its country of origin rather than its gameplay mechanics.
Is it, though? Compare Comics to Manga, and Manga to even Manhwa/Manhua. They're all basically the same thing (some with different "mechanics" lol) but have come to be known under different, regional terms in English. Even if in their native tongue those terms just mean the same exact thing.
Granted, these are entire mediums and not simply a genre, but they follow the same logic of impressing an idea upon English speaking natives or the western world or what have you, and codifying what that idea means.
It might be simply due to the prevalence of the video game industry in Japan and North America specifically that we've come to have terms like JRPG or WRPG, and perhaps if there were as big of an industry coming out of, idk, Africa, maybe we'd have ARPGs or AFPSs or something as well, you know?
Darken
3952
Eurojank comes to mind as a regional term for not even a genre but a particular subset of games on a budget via circumstances from eastern europe and could be seen as quite negative. This guy sums it better than I can. But from what I can tell it's taken in stride.
I do think having a genre named after country is a little strange, personally. Not offensive, obviously, but like weirdly nondescriptive. I'm more worried about what Japanese developers think about it though. If they don't care, it's fine, but I wouldn't mind having a name for the genre that actually described it a bit better.
As an aside, the name for this topic is EXTREMELY funny lmfao
As an aside, the name for this topic is EXTREMELY funny lmfao
I definitely don't think that the name "JRPG" should be retired, because it refers to a type of genre. If you retire the name, you won't be able to find it easily any longer! And that would be bad if you're specifically looking for it. (That's the whole point of genres... it's so that you can find something similar to the thing that you liked, and want to play more of.)
If anything, there should at least be a substitute term. But I think that the developer's remarks are referring to one point in history that just isn't relevant any longer (hopefully), that might have caused a bit too much trauma, because it seemed to be coming from foreign rivals, and not fans. Back in the period of time that he was referring to, it seems that western developers were trying to fight back against hallowed Japanese developers, and were just being belligerent in general in order to make up the difference, which is shameful. (They should have been doing so with their games and development ONLY, not starting a cultural war to complement their games. Typical of bullies... lacking confidence and lashing out.)
Just having a moderately-sized party that goes around, in a story-like setting, a fixed story (perhaps with several branches), fighting turn-based battles (issuing commands on initiative) to defeat opponents, questing and brooding over a distant goal to strive for, to become stronger, etc... This is a JRPG. Other types of gameplay can approximate this in different ways, but they can't be JRPGs without adhering to these criteria. Doesn't matter where they're developed! It's so iconic, that the place where they're made had an entire genre named after it. An emblem of honor for their popularity.
Maybe that time has passed, and this kind of game isn't attractive or popular any longer, due to technological advancements. But, it will always be its own kind of game, for so many were made. Because they were popular, once upon a time.
If anything, there should at least be a substitute term. But I think that the developer's remarks are referring to one point in history that just isn't relevant any longer (hopefully), that might have caused a bit too much trauma, because it seemed to be coming from foreign rivals, and not fans. Back in the period of time that he was referring to, it seems that western developers were trying to fight back against hallowed Japanese developers, and were just being belligerent in general in order to make up the difference, which is shameful. (They should have been doing so with their games and development ONLY, not starting a cultural war to complement their games. Typical of bullies... lacking confidence and lashing out.)
Just having a moderately-sized party that goes around, in a story-like setting, a fixed story (perhaps with several branches), fighting turn-based battles (issuing commands on initiative) to defeat opponents, questing and brooding over a distant goal to strive for, to become stronger, etc... This is a JRPG. Other types of gameplay can approximate this in different ways, but they can't be JRPGs without adhering to these criteria. Doesn't matter where they're developed! It's so iconic, that the place where they're made had an entire genre named after it. An emblem of honor for their popularity.
Maybe that time has passed, and this kind of game isn't attractive or popular any longer, due to technological advancements. But, it will always be its own kind of game, for so many were made. Because they were popular, once upon a time.
Hmm...
SRPG is already taken so we can't use that (Story RPG). Character RPG? Doesn't really fit.
I'm not sure what alternate term to use because it's a term that encompases a specific type of RPG, I feel. Which is why the term was used, I think.
(Also, it's not true that country-based terms aren't used to denote other countries. Australian Rock, for example, is a term used in music to denote specific type of music. Americana as a descriptor for all kinds of things that give off the American feel. I think the main issue is that JRPG was used derogatarily (wtf?) when these haven't been. Which sucks because to many, many, MANY people it's not used in that way at all.)
So what would an appropriate alternative be?
SRPG is already taken so we can't use that (Story RPG). Character RPG? Doesn't really fit.
I'm not sure what alternate term to use because it's a term that encompases a specific type of RPG, I feel. Which is why the term was used, I think.
(Also, it's not true that country-based terms aren't used to denote other countries. Australian Rock, for example, is a term used in music to denote specific type of music. Americana as a descriptor for all kinds of things that give off the American feel. I think the main issue is that JRPG was used derogatarily (wtf?) when these haven't been. Which sucks because to many, many, MANY people it's not used in that way at all.)
So what would an appropriate alternative be?
