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Feldschlacht IV
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author=BlindSight link=topic=2801.msg53452#msg53452 date=1230849350author=aprilschild link=topic=2801.msg53438#msg53438 date=1230848098
Trying to ram a new paradigm down your consumers' throats is never a good idea, no matter how well intentioned. I know this from recent experience - you'll get more stubbornness in return than you ever thought possible. More than likely, people will continue in the way they've always continued, because humans are like that. When they like something, they don't easily change. So most likely your forumgoers will continue going on the forum and ignoring the game pages - as they have done. And if they see a game page they know nothing about, they will be more inclined to ignore it than a forum thread, which seems less threatening and more noncommittal.
It still has buttons on it. And I personally, (and I know a lot of people who agree) only use it sideways, like an old-style controller.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2801.msg53453#msg53453 date=1230849398
That's the stupidest example I've ever seen. ::)
It's perfectly valid?
Your response brings up some good points, aprilschild. Despite what Mog would have you believe, I will most likely be making changes to relieve some issues you have.
However, I will say this: I do not like the current paradigm. Why are you putting more faith in a game's activity than other sources that are more adequate to determine quality? A forum thread having a lot of responses can mean a lot of different things. I might have started a flame war in it, for example.
What does a game with a good looking screenshot attached to its name and a score of 4/5 tell you? Screenshot can determine if YOU are interested in it. A review score of 4/5 determines that OTHERS like it.
However, I will say this: I do not like the current paradigm. Why are you putting more faith in a game's activity than other sources that are more adequate to determine quality? A forum thread having a lot of responses can mean a lot of different things. I might have started a flame war in it, for example.
What does a game with a good looking screenshot attached to its name and a score of 4/5 tell you? Screenshot can determine if YOU are interested in it. A review score of 4/5 determines that OTHERS like it.
author=Karsuman link=topic=2801.msg53457#msg53457 date=1230849704author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2801.msg53453#msg53453 date=1230849398
That's the stupidest example I've ever seen. ::)
It's perfectly valid?
Well, I don't even understand the example, honestly, and I don't remember the Wii denying gamers of their options. Yes, I get the whole 'It tried something different and became wildly successful' thing, but I don't recall it going 'Hey we're going to force you to do THIS AND YOU'LL HAVE FUN AND YOU'LL LIKE IT'.
But I digress.
Anyway, aprilschild gives a good point about advertising, and
Trying to ram a new paradigm down your consumers' throats is never a good idea, no matter how well intentioned. Etc...
However, I will say this: I do not like the current paradigm. Why are you putting more faith in a game's activity than other sources that are more adequate to determine quality? A forum thread having a lot of responses can mean a lot of different things. I might have started a flame war in it, for example.
I'm all on board with the gamebase idea, but I don't like the idea of denying people of their options.
EDIT: Damn people postin' before me
Despite what Mog would have you believe, I will most likely be making changes to relieve some issues you have.
I hope so, it's not like I don't wish I was wrong or proven wrong in my assumptions.
A review score of 4/5 determines that OTHERS like it.
But that's important too, knowing if something is successful by other people's standards or if it's popular is what helps me and millions of others to buy a game, watch a movie, or a TV show. At the very least, it gets me interested in it or let's me know it exists in the first place. Of course the person gets the final say if they want to watch or buy it or not, but why do you think video game magazine (review sections), Siskel and Ebert, movie review magazines, and other such things are so popular? That's an important part of the advertisement process.
Blind
2262
I wish you'd stop rehashing the same insights you've already made quite clear ten posts ago, Mog. It's becoming a tad tiresome for most of us. =[
Hey, how about you shut up? I mean seriously, man. I admit I'm doing the broken record thing but considering I had to repeat what I meant to you like 7 times on AIM... :(
By the way, I do hear that every game has its own self contained forum or something like that?
By the way, I do hear that every game has its own self contained forum or something like that?
Aprilschild is 110% correct in everything she said.
This is the Paradigm that I would like to see change!
Screenshot can determine if YOU are interested in it.
This is the Paradigm that I would like to see change!
Unfortunately, the basis for the system is not going to change. The forum is still being removed and the game section being shifted.
So what, Max, people should be interested in your game because your topic thread IS IN ALL CAPS and has 5000 views? That is worthless information and has no bearing at all on the game.
You can actually see a fragment of the game in a screenshot.
So what, Max, people should be interested in your game because your topic thread IS IN ALL CAPS and has 5000 views? That is worthless information and has no bearing at all on the game.
You can actually see a fragment of the game in a screenshot.
One thing that comes to mind: Joe schmoe wants to hog the front page until the end of time.
Update1, 12:01 am: Added screenshot of status menu
Update2, 12:08 am: Added protagonist's character description
Update3, 12:09 am: Corrected syntax in protagonist's character description
Update4, 12:16 am: Added screenshot of equipment menu
I like the idea overall, though. I am completely in favor of implementing it and keeping it barring it failing miserably.
Update1, 12:01 am: Added screenshot of status menu
Update2, 12:08 am: Added protagonist's character description
Update3, 12:09 am: Corrected syntax in protagonist's character description
Update4, 12:16 am: Added screenshot of equipment menu
I like the idea overall, though. I am completely in favor of implementing it and keeping it barring it failing miserably.
It's not different, just something that came to mind.
Shameless bumps in forums are more overt and thus more easily recognized as feux pas. Like I said though, very neat idea, can't wait to make use of it.
Shameless bumps in forums are more overt and thus more easily recognized as feux pas. Like I said though, very neat idea, can't wait to make use of it.
A way to possibly fix one of my major concerns is to have comments/reviews made by other people bump game pages too. I mean, no matter how much we really like to say the opposite, people are very driven by "popularity." If I see something has a lot of comments, I'll be more inclined to assume that thing is worth looking at (either it is really good or really bad). It's just something we're trained to assume, whether or not it's the rational assumption. Sure, the Twilight series is immensely popular and "all the rage..." but it wouldn't be if it were only judged by its "merits" (of which it has none/very few). It's popular because it has vocal fans and a lot of hype.
If people only judged books by how good they are, there would be a lot of currently overlooked novels getting read. Same goes with games. We assume because something has attention, it's worth looking at. Kind of backwards logic, but we're animals - we aren't rational at our core.
But that still doesn't fix my concern that people won't want to look at game pages. Also, lots of people just go straight PAST the main page and to the forums. Maybe this is something you are trying to change, and I can completely understand that. But I don't know if removing the biggest part of the forums and placing them on the main page is quite the answer... However, I also don't know what would be a better solution.
If people only judged books by how good they are, there would be a lot of currently overlooked novels getting read. Same goes with games. We assume because something has attention, it's worth looking at. Kind of backwards logic, but we're animals - we aren't rational at our core.
But that still doesn't fix my concern that people won't want to look at game pages. Also, lots of people just go straight PAST the main page and to the forums. Maybe this is something you are trying to change, and I can completely understand that. But I don't know if removing the biggest part of the forums and placing them on the main page is quite the answer... However, I also don't know what would be a better solution.
I might have forgot to mention it, but reviews do at least "bump" the game. For comments and such, I am going to be working on a way to make them applicable.
VideoWizard
2842
What is going to happen to the Game Making Drive? Is it going to be continued, as well? It's so popular at this point that it would be like Subway ending the five-dollar footlong promotion.
And I like that RMN3 will have an option to search for completed games (by maker, I presume?). But what happens to games that have no reviews?
And I like that RMN3 will have an option to search for completed games (by maker, I presume?). But what happens to games that have no reviews?
Vwiz did you get my last PM?
You are a big jerk.
As to the bolded text, well, you have managed to come up with something even LESS relevant to a game than a screenshot, that does not at all disprove my point. My point was that games should be judged on their actual merits, not hype or screenshots.
I was talking about the whole community not just this one change to this one website. People care about screenshots too much.
But that point was not exactly central to the argument that's going on here.
This is:
WIP, I would submit that the problem is...it isn't.
author=WIP link=topic=2801.msg53473#msg53473 date=1230853909
Unfortunately, the basis for the system is not going to change. The forum is still being removed and the game section being shifted.
So what, Max, people should be interested in your game because your topic thread IS IN ALL CAPS and has 5000 views? That is worthless information and has no bearing at all on the game.
You can actually see a fragment of the game in a screenshot.
You are a big jerk.
As to the bolded text, well, you have managed to come up with something even LESS relevant to a game than a screenshot, that does not at all disprove my point. My point was that games should be judged on their actual merits, not hype or screenshots.
author=Max McGee link=topic=2801.msg53468#msg53468 date=1230852235Screenshot can determine if YOU are interested in it.
This is the Paradigm that I would like to see change!
I was talking about the whole community not just this one change to this one website. People care about screenshots too much.
But that point was not exactly central to the argument that's going on here.
This is:
author=WIP link=topic=2801.msg53475#msg53475 date=1230854063
Tell me how that is any different from people senselessly bumping their thread, harmonic.
WIP, I would submit that the problem is...it isn't.
Scribble
1
Although aprilschild and Feldschlacht IV have a few good points, I like this idea mainly because I'm a bit, er, desensitised to amateur RPG release forums. All you tend to see are lists of meaningless titles (In the sense that when I see "Knight's Lance" next to "Shadow's Eye" next to "Galactic Chaos" next to "Sword to the Heart" next to "Phoenix Talon" next to "Vaex Aurternos Chapter Gamma" I don't want to click on anything apart from the ones with very high reply counts, and everything else is ignored)
When you do click on the thread, you can expect the same presentation template used for the previous game thread you clicked on (Not the poster's fault a lot of the time, which is why RMN3 will be interesting) And then a few posts going 'cool, will download when I get home!', and the occasional in-depth analysis (And that's if the game even warrants that and isn't some demo that contains a single battle or whatever). I don't think I'll miss that too much, and I hope that this means that the Game Design section gets more discussion =P
Basically, the game's release 'site' (thread) ends up being a dirty cluster of avatars, signatures and one-liners, and sometimes a wall-of-text essay of a first post that no-one cares about.
RMXP.org is essentially an extreme version of this that, while being a useful site, feels a bit, you know, trashy. Like some junkyard markets full of all kinds of riff-raff staggering around screaming their game titles (Which are, by the way, subject to change at any second because the creator's either A.Too eager for an audience for their games or B. Bored) Maybe this can bring a bit of much-needed polish to everything (Make sure the game itself is polished first, though), and encourage creators to make more of an effort. And it gives us more control.
I like this idea, a lot. And it's something new. If it doesn't work, it doesn't have to last forever, and at this point I think we should be thinking of ways in which RMN3 can successfully bulldoze the old model, and WIP can tweak as appropriate (If he wants =P).
When you do click on the thread, you can expect the same presentation template used for the previous game thread you clicked on (Not the poster's fault a lot of the time, which is why RMN3 will be interesting) And then a few posts going 'cool, will download when I get home!', and the occasional in-depth analysis (And that's if the game even warrants that and isn't some demo that contains a single battle or whatever). I don't think I'll miss that too much, and I hope that this means that the Game Design section gets more discussion =P
Basically, the game's release 'site' (thread) ends up being a dirty cluster of avatars, signatures and one-liners, and sometimes a wall-of-text essay of a first post that no-one cares about.
RMXP.org is essentially an extreme version of this that, while being a useful site, feels a bit, you know, trashy. Like some junkyard markets full of all kinds of riff-raff staggering around screaming their game titles (Which are, by the way, subject to change at any second because the creator's either A.Too eager for an audience for their games or B. Bored) Maybe this can bring a bit of much-needed polish to everything (Make sure the game itself is polished first, though), and encourage creators to make more of an effort. And it gives us more control.
I like this idea, a lot. And it's something new. If it doesn't work, it doesn't have to last forever, and at this point I think we should be thinking of ways in which RMN3 can successfully bulldoze the old model, and WIP can tweak as appropriate (If he wants =P).
Max, your statements are contradictory. Apparently trying to make the game list act somewhat like a forum is a bad idea. But you like the forum.
And for the record, yes people focus too much on screenshots.
And for the record, yes people focus too much on screenshots.
author=WIP link=topic=2801.msg53493#msg53493 date=1230860091
Max, your statements are contradictory. Apparently trying to make the game list act somewhat like a forum is a bad idea. But you like the forum.
And for the record, yes people focus too much on screenshots.
Could it just be possible that my feelings on this are mixed and rather complicated?
I am saying that yes the forum isn't perfect but I don't think this change will fix all (or necessarily even any) of the problems that exist with the forums.
That said I am willing to give it a chance, I guess, (like I have a choice?). And I really didn't mean to get drawn into this discussion, or even be on RMN half as much as I have today. The place is magnetic to me.
author=WIP link=topic=2801.msg53493#msg53493 date=1230860091
Apparently trying to make the game list act somewhat like a forum is a bad idea. But you like the forum.
I don't think that the following is what Max is saying, but you raised the issue:
It is a bad idea to try and make something into a facsimile of something it isn't, when you already have something that is what it is and works as such.
Why make something that acts like a forum when you already have a forum?
