HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT GAMES WITH A LOT OF SECONDARY CHARACTERS?
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This came to mind while coming up with new characters for my game. I sometimes hesitate because I don't want to make too many, but then I think about games with many secondary characters/villains, like Xenogears, or most famously, the Suikoden series. A common fear is that too many characters will thin out the cast and not get enough character development, but I think that could be avoided by just making sure the more important characters get their character development, while minor characters just get characterization. I mean do you really expect for Maison from Xenogears or Camille from Suikoden to get a boatload of character development? They're just there for a purpose.
EDIT: Also FFT had a lot of characters.
But yeah, what do you guys think about the number of minor/secondary characters or villains in games?
EDIT: Also FFT had a lot of characters.
But yeah, what do you guys think about the number of minor/secondary characters or villains in games?
I don't mind having a lot of characters in a game. For those who join your team, it adds to great diversity. If there are too many, though, it can lead to the Pokemon Syndrome...I actually like the number of villians in a game, it fills in the gaps between major bosses. I agree with the more major characters getting development, and the others get a bio. In my game, the already known characters get further development, and the newer characters are introduced and their backgrounds are made known, and mabye they can participate in a side story or two.
I guess it depends on the game and the story. You seem to include NPC's as well as your main party. I know that names are hard to follow in games like Xenogears, Chrono Cross, and Suikoden. I'd say for the NPC's that are recurring and are important to the plot, character development can be limited to their immediate involvement and perhaps whatever their motive to support (or defy) you is. Any character that doesn't require more than a single mention or appearance, probably would avoid even giving them a name. Names make players feel they might need to remember them. I think it's ok to have a lot of names, but I would take care in how they are presented (introducing one or two at a time). Otherwise, I'm comfortable adding as many characters as necessary to move the story forward.
It's hard to put in to words, but I think cast interaction comes naturally based off of a) characterization and b) character purpose in the plot. When an event occurs that directly affects a character's purpose in the plot, the resulting character development will come naturally. When there's no longer an active purpose for a character in the story, send them on their way.
It's hard to put in to words, but I think cast interaction comes naturally based off of a) characterization and b) character purpose in the plot. When an event occurs that directly affects a character's purpose in the plot, the resulting character development will come naturally. When there's no longer an active purpose for a character in the story, send them on their way.
Chrono Cross doesn't really count for it's 40+ party you acquire; Suikoden is excluded from this because of the nature of the games; recruiting people for armies and the whole 108 heroes/Water Margin homage thing. But yeah, I'm talking about characters in general. Take a look at this. Quite a bit of entries, some of those entries are even for teams of characters instead of just one. While Xenogears does have some issues with character development for some characters *coughRicocough*, as a whole it generally does a good job of introducing a large number of characters in the game and keeping some of them there throughout the majority of the game.
I was partially inspired to make this topic because of a comment that a reviewer had about the demo of my game a while back "Many characters are introduced but they're not given enough character development". To which I responded "You gotta be kidding me." Some characters just come and go, and expecting character development from a slew of one shot NPCs at the beginning of a demo is a tad harsh, which is why I grew concerned about having 'too many'.
I was partially inspired to make this topic because of a comment that a reviewer had about the demo of my game a while back "Many characters are introduced but they're not given enough character development". To which I responded "You gotta be kidding me." Some characters just come and go, and expecting character development from a slew of one shot NPCs at the beginning of a demo is a tad harsh, which is why I grew concerned about having 'too many'.
Well Xenogears did it right. There is nothing to compare here because it all depends on the execution. You can have as many characters (secondary or not) as you want.
Let's take Xenogears for example, though. In the beginning, you start off with just Fei really. Sure you have towns people and all of the key characters in that town, but they are quickly finished off and are really just there to provide motivation for the player and Fei. About 2 hours into the game, you really only have 3 key characters to follow (Fei, Citan, and Elly). As you get more involved in the conflict in Xenogears, the plot begins to develop a lot. In return, more characters are introduced to keep things going. It's kind of like a timeline. If you introduce too many characters at once, it's like trying to take jabs at different spots on the plot timeline at the same time. It gets confusing, and things begin to fall apart. And even though the creator has this whole timeline in his/her head and knows what the purpose of each character is, he or she still has to know where those characters should be placed on the timeline. Within the gaps of the timeline (between the introduction of one character and the next), that time is generally used to develop the character that was just introduced. Of course that doesn't mean you stop when the next character is introduced, but the gap is there to give the player some insight on who that person is.
But yeah if you have too many at an introduction, it's tough to develop them at the same time. You can't expect them to be great characters within that time frame, but there needs to be set times or points in the game (the beginning is best since it is the most important part of a game really) where you can focus specifically on a character. And you absolutely have to show the difference between a primary character and a secondary, which can get difficult. Secondary or not though, you have to set the correct pacing between all characters, no matter how minor they are.
Let's take Xenogears for example, though. In the beginning, you start off with just Fei really. Sure you have towns people and all of the key characters in that town, but they are quickly finished off and are really just there to provide motivation for the player and Fei. About 2 hours into the game, you really only have 3 key characters to follow (Fei, Citan, and Elly). As you get more involved in the conflict in Xenogears, the plot begins to develop a lot. In return, more characters are introduced to keep things going. It's kind of like a timeline. If you introduce too many characters at once, it's like trying to take jabs at different spots on the plot timeline at the same time. It gets confusing, and things begin to fall apart. And even though the creator has this whole timeline in his/her head and knows what the purpose of each character is, he or she still has to know where those characters should be placed on the timeline. Within the gaps of the timeline (between the introduction of one character and the next), that time is generally used to develop the character that was just introduced. Of course that doesn't mean you stop when the next character is introduced, but the gap is there to give the player some insight on who that person is.
But yeah if you have too many at an introduction, it's tough to develop them at the same time. You can't expect them to be great characters within that time frame, but there needs to be set times or points in the game (the beginning is best since it is the most important part of a game really) where you can focus specifically on a character. And you absolutely have to show the difference between a primary character and a secondary, which can get difficult. Secondary or not though, you have to set the correct pacing between all characters, no matter how minor they are.
As far as plot-relevant characters go, I'd say a good rule of thumb is that once you've reached a certain threshold of plot-relevant characters (which varies depending on your ability to juggle character relationships and make the audience care about them), you stop adding new ones unless there's no way to make an earlier character fulfill the role that character needs to. Add as many extras as you want, but if the audience is going to be expected to remember who this person is, you want to use economy.
You don't want your story to turn into another Wheel of Time.
You don't want your story to turn into another Wheel of Time.
I like loads of characters. Throaway characters that get 15 minutes before they are gone forever. The idea of showing "flashes of life", characters that otherwise don't make a huge difference and the player characters don't really know much about them but they still do their thing, cross paths with the player characters and then move on.
Of course I only like a very limited amount of central characters. So that the player identifies with one (or possibly a couple) that is the main character.
Of course I only like a very limited amount of central characters. So that the player identifies with one (or possibly a couple) that is the main character.
Secondary characters don't bother me so long as they are characterised in a half decent way. Using the excuse that someone isn't a major character to defend having a badly thought out characterisation just isn't good enough in my opinion. Also, the secondary characters have to have some sort of relevance to the storyline or need to somehow drive the storyline forwards otherwise they are completely useless and annoying. Why have them if they don't serve a purpos
I have to agree with Fallen-Griever on this one. As long as the secondary characters are developed, and not just poorly characterized, or even worse, not characterized at all (see pale stereotype), then the number of secondary characters can be great or many. Authors do this all the time (cite Rowling's characters in Harry Potter or Tolkien's characters in Lord of the Rings), and so can game designers.
I'd rather see a few number of well-developed characters than a truckload of undeveloped characters. A good recent example of a game with a lot of well-developed characters is Eternal Sonata. While it's by no means at the character counter of Shuikoden, there are a hefty number of well-developed characters for you to love and hate. A good recent example, however, of a game with poorly developed characters is Grand Theft Auto IV. With the exception of the main character, his cousin, and maybe two others, most of the characters in that game are really bad stereotypes. And some of them stay, annoyingly, in your character's sphere of influence for the entire game.
I think video games can get away with throwaway characters because there is much more to a video game than its story. A throwaway character in Suikoden is also a game mechanic, for example, because he might sell you armor or fight in your party or let you change the interface skin.
You can rely heavily on conventions to flesh out secondary characters. If you have a soldier type, make him gruff and a bit slow. It is what people expect, so exploit that.
I think you could learn a lot from short story writing, too.
I think you could learn a lot from short story writing, too.
I don't like a lot of secondary characters as I lose track of who's who and there are times when someone's been mentioned in a series and I've had to go back and look for them to remember who they were.
Negima's about the only thing I can stand with a ton of secondary characters, even then it only focuses on a select few at a time and we still haven't been properly introduced to everyone. (And I'm on volume 20)
Negima's about the only thing I can stand with a ton of secondary characters, even then it only focuses on a select few at a time and we still haven't been properly introduced to everyone. (And I'm on volume 20)
Give them a defining personality trait or two and make them pop up again eventually (or mentioned if they're dead). Referencing characters is a great way to make the player become more immersed in your world and to solidify the game. It also lets you recycle graphics!
Previous posts making correlations between games and books also makes me realize that it largely depends on the player, too. The presentation of the game's plot also affects players' abilities to absorb the names and personalities that go with them. A low-key plot (say, Secret of Mana) doesn't require many names, whereas Xenogears (with its tens of thousands of years of plot depth) could publish its own baby names book.
If the story is bad, no one will care anyway. Too many names can hurt pacing, and thus, hurt the story. I agree with Neophyte's take on pacing and character introduction. I think this also provides the player with enough time to get comfortable with existing names, while you could develop some personality for new characters you introduce as you progress with making the game (i.e. when planning ahead, just know you need a character to perform a certain function in the plot, then when the time comes to actually create the maps and events for that game segment, take some time to flesh them out).
If the story is bad, no one will care anyway. Too many names can hurt pacing, and thus, hurt the story. I agree with Neophyte's take on pacing and character introduction. I think this also provides the player with enough time to get comfortable with existing names, while you could develop some personality for new characters you introduce as you progress with making the game (i.e. when planning ahead, just know you need a character to perform a certain function in the plot, then when the time comes to actually create the maps and events for that game segment, take some time to flesh them out).
Like most questions of this sort, it all depends on execution.
For some games this might be very appropriate; for others, not at all.
For some games this might be very appropriate; for others, not at all.
I don't mind games with a large cast as long as they have their own individual personality. Most of my favorite games have a large cast of characters.
FFT can be hilariously bad with some of this. Shocking plot twist where a dead character suddenly returns? I didn't know the guy was dead because it happens offscreen and if the player finds out its via a wall of text assuming you even remember the guy who had two appearances so far in the game. One of them was him hanging out with two oneshots and the other he was laying on the ground with one line that was something like "argh".
It'd be even worse if the characters had no visual distinguishing characteristic and similar/stupid/forgettable names.
Protip: Don't do this.
It'd be even worse if the characters had no visual distinguishing characteristic and similar/stupid/forgettable names.
Protip: Don't do this.
I don't like having a crapload of secondary characters just piled on at once. I need to get a few, let the story go on for awhile so I can get used to them, then they can add some more characters. If there's a ton of characters right off and I'm supposed to know who the heck I'm supposed to go talk to just by reading their name once, it becomes frustrating.
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=3098.msg60921#msg60921 date=1234034365
FFT can be hilariously bad with some of this. Shocking plot twist where a dead character suddenly returns? I didn't know the guy was dead because it happens offscreen and if the player finds out its via a wall of text assuming you even remember the guy who had two appearances so far in the game. One of them was him hanging out with two oneshots and the other he was laying on the ground with one line that was something like "argh".
It'd be even worse if the characters had no visual distinguishing characteristic and similar/stupid/forgettable names.
Protip: Don't do this.
Hahaha, you're talking about Elmdor. Hahaha, that was funny.

























