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HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT GAMES WITH A LOT OF SECONDARY CHARACTERS?
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Karsuman
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Closeauthor=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=3098.msg60921#msg60921 date=1234034365
FFT can be hilariously bad with some of this. Shocking plot twist where a dead character suddenly returns? I didn't know the guy was dead because it happens offscreen and if the player finds out its via a wall of text assuming you even remember the guy who had two appearances so far in the game. One of them was him hanging out with two oneshots and the other he was laying on the ground with one line that was something like "argh".
It'd be even worse if the characters had no visual distinguishing characteristic and similar/stupid/forgettable names.
Protip: Don't do this.
Actually, if you pay attention during chapter 3, you'll see a rumor that talks about Elmdor's death in the tavern.
Not the most dramatic material, but given its nature as a war story I didn't really mind this.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Up to Riovances he's a throwaway character and expecting the player to remember him by name in a bar rumor (aka wall of text) in a game with so many characters where he has done nothing is atrocious writing and poor handling with secondary characters.
Shadowtext
120
author=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=3098.msg60939#msg60939 date=1234044386I don't remember Elmdore's death being that big a deal, other than the "back from the dead" bit, which you can just find out just from context. Years pass between chapters, it only stands to reason that things are going to happen that you haven't heard about.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Up to Riovances he's a throwaway character and expecting the player to remember him by name in a bar rumor (aka wall of text) in a game with so many characters where he has done nothing is atrocious writing and poor handling with secondary characters.
Considering how bad the translation was on the original (I don't have a PSP, so I can't speak for the new translation), Elmdore was the least of FFT's problems. I'm not saying it didn't have a good story, just that it was sometimes really difficult to tell how much of it was subtle execution, and how much of it was blind idiot translation.
I must say I agree with ST here. It's not really necessary to know that Elmdore died beforehand to understand this, especially considering only a few lines come up about the incident.
FTR, it could undoubtedly have been done better, I agree.
FTR, it could undoubtedly have been done better, I agree.
author=Shadowtext link=topic=3098.msg60980#msg60980 date=1234071512It wouldn't be a problem if his death didn't give him a big change and introduced him as a villian to the plot. Nobody would care if Bolmna died; He's not an important character. Elmdor died and because of such became a player in the story (even if it's for four maps or so).
I don't remember Elmdore's death being that big a deal, other than the "back from the dead" bit, which you can just find out just from context. Years pass between chapters, it only stands to reason that things are going to happen that you haven't heard about.
I do like to think the big reveal of Elmdor not being dead was supposed to mean something. It makes it feel more like the writers noticed the ball and completely failed to catch it instead of vacantly staring at a wall while the ball flew right by. Maybe the new translation does clear up the writer's intentions (no PSP here either :( )
*edit*
Elmdor's death is also why he's a Lucavi (and therefore a villian) and why he's with Vormav. Without knowing Elmdor died its pretty much a plot twist why you're up against Elmdor now with no
*reedit*
That's not foreshadowing! Let me try and fix that...
You can tell I'm a terrible neckbeard for trying to say specificly why a video game plot is terrible.
AeroGP
64
@GreatRedSpirit:
I've never really questioned Elmdor's involvement. When I first had FFT, it was a rental and I didn't make it past the end of Chapter 2 before I had to bring the game back. Despite seeing Elmdor again briefly at the beginning of Chapter 3, it didn't dawn on me that this guy who's attacking me at Riovannes is the same guy I fucking risked my life to save as my first priority mission in Chapter 1. Thus, the huge plot point really flew past me.
When I finally came to that realization, though, it didn't bother me much. You've only recently been branded a heretic by the church after killing a priest who used 'holy stones' to become the devil. Your brothers have disowned you, you're not even particularly on good terms with your best friend, either, and anyone who has gotten wind that you're a heretic wants your head for dessert. This really isn't surprising to me. I mean, It's not even the first time, at the end of a chapter, you're forced to kill a prentious cock you once saved... (although you don't get to fully kill Elmdor... yet)
So yeah, I accept "ha ha, I'm evil now" as perfectly legitimate. Pretty much everyone that didn't join your party or was emotionally involved with a potential party member was plain evil (Dycedarg) or was equally as vulnerable as you, as if he/she was holding a sign up saying "Please kill me." (Zalbag... poor, poor Zalbag) The exception to this, of course, is Galfgarion... what a pain in the ass for anyone who didn't know about him beforehand...
I've never really questioned Elmdor's involvement. When I first had FFT, it was a rental and I didn't make it past the end of Chapter 2 before I had to bring the game back. Despite seeing Elmdor again briefly at the beginning of Chapter 3, it didn't dawn on me that this guy who's attacking me at Riovannes is the same guy I fucking risked my life to save as my first priority mission in Chapter 1. Thus, the huge plot point really flew past me.
When I finally came to that realization, though, it didn't bother me much. You've only recently been branded a heretic by the church after killing a priest who used 'holy stones' to become the devil. Your brothers have disowned you, you're not even particularly on good terms with your best friend, either, and anyone who has gotten wind that you're a heretic wants your head for dessert. This really isn't surprising to me. I mean, It's not even the first time, at the end of a chapter, you're forced to kill a prentious cock you once saved... (although you don't get to fully kill Elmdor... yet)
So yeah, I accept "ha ha, I'm evil now" as perfectly legitimate. Pretty much everyone that didn't join your party or was emotionally involved with a potential party member was plain evil (Dycedarg) or was equally as vulnerable as you, as if he/she was holding a sign up saying "Please kill me." (Zalbag... poor, poor Zalbag) The exception to this, of course, is Galfgarion... what a pain in the ass for anyone who didn't know about him beforehand...
I don't know about you guys but for me, too many secondary characters are a pain in the ass. I always save the chocobo in the forest but never end up using it. Seems like strenght is my only priority when choosing my party. But yeah, FFT did a good job adding all those extra characters because as the story goes on you get guys with badass skills and it makes you want to use them. But then I always end up ditching the character that I kicked out of my main party in order to put the robot in.
Eike
2708
Hmm, veering slightly away from FFT, I'm making a Suikoden-style game - you know, lots of optional (well, lots of mandatory, as well) playable characters. I like the idea of 'development for important characters, characterisation for minor characters' - it can feel a bit odd that players would make a party of people they only know one or two things about, over the characters' best friends, but I guess it's realistic that you wouldn't know every single soldier in an army on a deep personal level.
Anyway, usually in these types of game, no matter how relevant or important characters are, I always try and get at LEAST one complete randomer on my party at any one time. I suppose developers feel this is important as well - I mean, Killey's a fantastic character to use in Suikoden II, for example, and though he gets a couple of scenes when you recruit him, after that pretty much becomes a non-character. You slowly learn all about Flik and Viktor's backstories and motivations, but don't have to choose them over these squirrels you found roaming around.
In my particular game, I was also thinking of, once you've both got your HQ and recuited a certain sleuthy character, being able to view her 'notes' on her eavesdropping, and see scenes between minor characters - akin to the support conversations in the Fire Emblem series - so that these characters actually get some development, without loads of unnecessary scenes being forced upon the player in the main storyline (and missed if you haven't recruited a certain character by then).
So yeah, in conclusion, secondary characters? Bring 'em on.
Anyway, usually in these types of game, no matter how relevant or important characters are, I always try and get at LEAST one complete randomer on my party at any one time. I suppose developers feel this is important as well - I mean, Killey's a fantastic character to use in Suikoden II, for example, and though he gets a couple of scenes when you recruit him, after that pretty much becomes a non-character. You slowly learn all about Flik and Viktor's backstories and motivations, but don't have to choose them over these squirrels you found roaming around.
In my particular game, I was also thinking of, once you've both got your HQ and recuited a certain sleuthy character, being able to view her 'notes' on her eavesdropping, and see scenes between minor characters - akin to the support conversations in the Fire Emblem series - so that these characters actually get some development, without loads of unnecessary scenes being forced upon the player in the main storyline (and missed if you haven't recruited a certain character by then).
So yeah, in conclusion, secondary characters? Bring 'em on.
