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NON-LINEAR RM* GAMES
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Craze
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CloseWhat kinds of things do the people (you) want to see in an exploration RM* game? I mean, like, you are put in a world with the barest reason (think of Elder Scrolls and being a random prisoner) and then you get to go gather information and then act on it. The set-up and end goal are set, but the story--no, the journey--between is all your creation.
I am looking at Max, here, because he is making something like this and so far seems to be doing a pretty good job at handling it (except making my class of choice useless in his demo :< :< :< : <: <: < :<:< : <: <:< :<:<:<:<: < :< :< ).
SHORT VERSION:
What do you want to see in a game where you explore a full, fleshed-out game world?
These are things that I'd like to see:
-Some form of customizable character development. It's my story, so I want my own protagonist(s).
-Streamlined and easy-to-understand skills/items/etc. I want to be able to pick up a "Runed Scroll of Bladed Earth-Mothers" and know exactly what it is--or, at least, be able to know who to take it to so that I can discover its properties.
-Interesting points of interest that may or may not be mentioned in a nearby town. One of my favorite experiences in Oblivion is stumbling on some necromancers in a chapel that were sacrificing some dude. It had no relation to the area around it and just... happened. I also got a nice ring out of the fight!
-I want phat loot.
-I want to know WHERE I CAN GO and WHERE I CANNOT. Areas that can be entered should be marked as such.
I am looking at Max, here, because he is making something like this and so far seems to be doing a pretty good job at handling it (except making my class of choice useless in his demo :< :< :< : <: <: < :<:< : <: <:< :<:<:<:<: < :< :< ).
SHORT VERSION:
What do you want to see in a game where you explore a full, fleshed-out game world?
These are things that I'd like to see:
-Some form of customizable character development. It's my story, so I want my own protagonist(s).
-Streamlined and easy-to-understand skills/items/etc. I want to be able to pick up a "Runed Scroll of Bladed Earth-Mothers" and know exactly what it is--or, at least, be able to know who to take it to so that I can discover its properties.
-Interesting points of interest that may or may not be mentioned in a nearby town. One of my favorite experiences in Oblivion is stumbling on some necromancers in a chapel that were sacrificing some dude. It had no relation to the area around it and just... happened. I also got a nice ring out of the fight!
-I want phat loot.
-I want to know WHERE I CAN GO and WHERE I CANNOT. Areas that can be entered should be marked as such.
It is my opinion that every game needs to hold the hand of the player on the outset. Force your gameplay down my throat immediately so I know what I can do. Then let go of the reigns and let me go wild.I am making a fairly non-linear game
Well, I agree with WIP on this one! I don't like it when free roaming games let me make my character and immediately throw me out into the world 'LOL GO BUCK WILD' with no instruction on how to play the game or what to do, or anything. Like he said, have the game be on rails for a while, teach me the ropes, and then toss me out into the world, cold, naked, and alone.
Do you think that an FF2-3(?), 5-6 style "school" is acceptable, WIP/MOG? You know, a group of old men tells you about the game and the basics, sometimes actually showing you/forcing it? That way it's optional, but hopefully the developer is intelligent enough to make the choice to go a very obvious choice (DO YOU WANT ME TO SHOW YOU THE SECRET TRAINING HALL Y/N?)
Shadowtext
120
I agree with WIP and Mog on this one. Freedom in a game ought to be handled like an inverted pyramid--you get more and more options as you go on. If you maintain a consistent level of freedom throughout the game, there's no carrot being held in front of the horse, so to speak.
Even late in the game, though, I just don't go in for too much freedom in a game. When you have a million choices you can make, none of which have any real benefit over one another, it's tough to make a choice at all.
Even late in the game, though, I just don't go in for too much freedom in a game. When you have a million choices you can make, none of which have any real benefit over one another, it's tough to make a choice at all.
B-but doesn't that freedom define Oblivion and Fallout 3? Maybe we're takling about different kinds of freedom...?
Example of what I'm thinking:
You talk in a guy in Villageton who tells you that a witch with a powerful ability that she's willing to teach lives in Caveone, which is east of the city beyond a pond. You head towards Caveone and at the pond you see a weird rune on the ground. You discover that it grants access to and from Dungeontwo. You find some nice treasure in the third room, then leave and go find the witch. You decide to head back to the mysterious rune after a good night's sleep.
Example of what I'm thinking:
You talk in a guy in Villageton who tells you that a witch with a powerful ability that she's willing to teach lives in Caveone, which is east of the city beyond a pond. You head towards Caveone and at the pond you see a weird rune on the ground. You discover that it grants access to and from Dungeontwo. You find some nice treasure in the third room, then leave and go find the witch. You decide to head back to the mysterious rune after a good night's sleep.
Shadowtext
120
author=Craze link=topic=3217.msg63395#msg63395 date=1235527850Nope, we're talking about the same type of freedom. It's a big part of why I can't stand the Elder Scrolls series.
B-but doesn't that freedom define Oblivion and Fallout 3? Maybe we're takling about different kinds of freedom...?
I haven't played Fallout 3, so I can't say how that fares, but in general I just don't care for sandbox gameplay.
When I was making EtG I noticed that one thing that gave me the most joy as player was GETTING STUFF. A ridiculously huge and randomized loot tree is a plus. Likewise for making an open-world game or GMing in a certain style; giving out treasure is my favorite part.
Neophyte
155
author=Shadowtext link=topic=3217.msg63403#msg63403 date=1235528728I'm like this for games that aren't RPGs. I could never get into games like GTA, Saints Row, etc. Oblivion had issues where it had too many quests that didn't have a significant enough impact on the gameplay or the characters direction.
I haven't played Fallout 3, so I can't say how that fares, but in general I just don't care for sandbox gameplay.
Still loved Oblivion and Fallout 3, though. Like Max said, the reason is because of the rewards in the game. It's a simple mechanic; start the player off with a worn out dagger, but give them a Plasma Rifle and they'll have a blast. Then have the weapon break or just give the player very few rounds of ammo at the beginning of the game. It gives the player a taste of what's to come, basically (from the fallout 3 commentary). Changes that affect the gameplay or direction of the story are key.
Some people can't get into games with lots of freedom because the game gives you no ground to start on. There are always nice treasures to be found, but everybody plays these games differently, so there's a high chance that many people are going to miss out on the loot another person found. If they don't find their share of good loot, they will just drop the game. That's why Fallout 3 (again) gave you some options right from the beginning at Megaton. It was basically a central hub for quests, each one having a significant impact on either the gameplay or your characters karma.
Also I like having different branches of gameplay. Having the option of either being a stealth character or a magic user is nice. Unfortunately it's very tough to balance this, but then again some prefer the different branches wielding higher levels of difficulty.
edited stuff
G-Flex
0
I don't really get the annoyance with TES-style open-ended worlds.
I loved Morrowind and I'm not sure how people could have gotten TOO lost.
Sure, you can go out and do anything you like, but the game does give you a (basic) tutorial at the beginning, and tells you exactly how to proceed in the main quest right from the start. The game picks you up and gives you a nice kickstart; it shouldn't be expected to give you a piggyback ride through the game, especially since it would be detrimental to the game's appeal in a serious way.
I loved Morrowind and I'm not sure how people could have gotten TOO lost.
Sure, you can go out and do anything you like, but the game does give you a (basic) tutorial at the beginning, and tells you exactly how to proceed in the main quest right from the start. The game picks you up and gives you a nice kickstart; it shouldn't be expected to give you a piggyback ride through the game, especially since it would be detrimental to the game's appeal in a serious way.
yamata no orochi
184
A question: have there been any non-linear RPG Maker games?
The only one I can think of is Fallenwood.
The only one I can think of is Fallenwood.
G-Flex
0
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=3217.msg63426#msg63426 date=1235532530
Yeah but the problem lies when the game doesn't show or tell you how to do anything.
It tells you the basics on how to fight and cast magic in the first area.
Also, the game has a manual. A game is still software with a user interface and you can't expect to intuitively grasp the entire thing right off the bat. The systems were mostly relatively simple anyway.
Shadowtext
120
author=G-Flex link=topic=3217.msg63440#msg63440 date=1235536700I like manuals just fine, but reading one should not be expected of a player. They're supplements to the game--all the information you need to know to play the game should be available in-game in some format that is easy to get to. Preferably not through mandatory tutorial sequences, but optional ones are at least one way of doing it.
Also, the game has a manual. A game is still software with a user interface and you can't expect to intuitively grasp the entire thing right off the bat. The systems were mostly relatively simple anyway.
G-Flex
0
Is it seriously that hard to read like five pages of material before playing a game that'll last you upwards of a couple hundred hours of playtime?
Seriously, in-game tutorials can break the flow of the game. You can solve that problem by putting the information in the manual. This is especially true since the stuff that you'd need to be told in the manual is simply functional stuff that ideally SHOULDN'T be talked about in the game itself too much.
Seriously, in-game tutorials can break the flow of the game. You can solve that problem by putting the information in the manual. This is especially true since the stuff that you'd need to be told in the manual is simply functional stuff that ideally SHOULDN'T be talked about in the game itself too much.
Shadowtext
120
author=G-Flex link=topic=3217.msg63443#msg63443 date=1235538297It doesn't matter if it's easy or not. It's just an issue of what to expect from your audience. Just like with web design how for every link you have to get to a piece of content, you're going to reduce your audience by 20% or something like that, the more of a hassle you make it to play your game the more you're going to limit your audience. On top of that, in line with what Feld was saying, manuals get lost or don't come with the game in the first place (especially for preowned games or digital downloads--even if people read the manuals, no one reads Readmes), or the player just wants to play the game now, and not after reading the manual.
Is it seriously that hard to read like five pages of material before playing a game that'll last you upwards of a couple hundred hours of playtime?
Seriously, in-game tutorials can break the flow of the game. You can solve that problem by putting the information in the manual. This is especially true since the stuff that you'd need to be told in the manual is simply functional stuff that ideally SHOULDN'T be talked about in the game itself too much.
I can't think of any justifiable reason to give a player who wants to play your game a reason that they can't right now.
Shinan
4314
I think a good way is to provide a good open starting area first. A village where you can do a multitude of different quests in different ways and then you are let loose into the rest of the world.
An example could be like in Arcanum where you first go into a small town that you can't leave because the bridge is guarded and you have to get past it. To get past it there are a bunch of ways of doing it. This gives you the world in a nutshell without the hugeness of the rest of the game. And introduces you to the concept of multiple solutions to problems as well as optional quests and the whole shebang.
On the subject of tutorials I always prefer them to not break character. When a character I'm talking to says "press A to jump" it sort of breaks things. Instead have infotip popups with information like that. It's a subtle difference but it's a big one for me. Also if there are linear tutorial levels make sure you can skip them if you want. A non-linear game has great replayability, forcing you to redo a boring linear beginning part turns you off to replays.
On the subject of manuals. I love them. I hate the fact that games no longer come with proper manuals. I guess though that without manuals that's just another reason that pirating is easier. You don't even get manuals with your bought games anymore. Tutorials should only give the superficial obvious things (this is how you move). For indepth information manuals are the way to go. I don't think tutorials need to tell you everything, that's what manuals are for.
The thicker manuals the better!
An example could be like in Arcanum where you first go into a small town that you can't leave because the bridge is guarded and you have to get past it. To get past it there are a bunch of ways of doing it. This gives you the world in a nutshell without the hugeness of the rest of the game. And introduces you to the concept of multiple solutions to problems as well as optional quests and the whole shebang.
On the subject of tutorials I always prefer them to not break character. When a character I'm talking to says "press A to jump" it sort of breaks things. Instead have infotip popups with information like that. It's a subtle difference but it's a big one for me. Also if there are linear tutorial levels make sure you can skip them if you want. A non-linear game has great replayability, forcing you to redo a boring linear beginning part turns you off to replays.
On the subject of manuals. I love them. I hate the fact that games no longer come with proper manuals. I guess though that without manuals that's just another reason that pirating is easier. You don't even get manuals with your bought games anymore. Tutorials should only give the superficial obvious things (this is how you move). For indepth information manuals are the way to go. I don't think tutorials need to tell you everything, that's what manuals are for.
The thicker manuals the better!
