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THE 9 THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THE RMNCASTS
Posts
S. F. LaValle
1069
S. F. LaValle
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Closeif you're using pauses as a stand-in for what punctuation marks already accomplish (i.e.: control the flow of the narrative) you are using them improperly. Full stop.
/agree.
I don't have facts of any sort supporting this, but I feel most punctuation was invented specifically for the purpose of replicating the flow of speech in a written format.
But that's neither here nor there. The discussion is geared more towards proper use of pauses (and ellipses). Here's how I see things:
"And the winner is..." *pause* "...Sporky Dorky!"
This is a proper use of pause. In speaking format, if there is a clear and sizeable interrupt (deliberate or not) while a thought is in process, then a pause is called for. In a written format, something like this:
"And the winner is..." the announcer began as he slowly opened the envelope. "Sporky Dorky!"
I don't think there are too many situations this would occur. Most of the time, in RM games, pauses are used between completed thoughts, which I don't agree with. This is why periods exist. If there needs to be a clear break between one completed thought and another, it's probably better to close the message window and open a new one.
That brings me to my next point: ellipses. Yes, they work well to create a dramatic pause, but just like too much of anything, overuse will dilute the impact. Ellipses should never be used to replace a period, they should be used to convey what a period can't. In my book, the particular circumstance is after an incomplete thought, which can optionally be followed by additional dialogue that pertains directly to the thought preceding the ellipsis.
The Real Brickroad
2626
post=89170
True. But that doesn't mean they can't be used to good effect, does it?
Again, if you're using them as a stand-in for punctuation marks we already have, you're not using them to good effect.
Let's see if I can streamline this: if you're using pauses to create the effect that punctuation marks already create, they're not (insert good adjective here).
How people speak and how people read/write are not the same thing.
...do you talk to the games you're playing? That's weird, I usually just read or listen to them.
EDIT: Start thinking of the characters more like actors than sprites; that's how I usually think of things when watching a cutscene. Admittedly, this is more applicable in modern RPGs were voice-acting actually exists, but I think dramatic pauses and the like are a good tool for developers to use when creating important cutscenes because it gives the impression that someone is actually saying the words.
Punctuation marks also give the impression that someone is actually saying the words too, and don't irritate anyone.
I get what you're trying to say, that most of the time there isn't any need to put a pause after a comma because people automatically pause when reading a line like that. However, sometimes there is: it's all about the situation rather than taking a uniform rule and applying it to everything.
I'll repeat: if you're using pauses as a stand-in for punctuation marks, there is a hard and fast rule: it's stupid and wrong.
If you're using them to create dramatic effect, you are (by definition!) using them sparingly. (That is, something isn't going to create dramatic effect if it gets used in every scene anyway.) People in the RM community don't use these pauses to create dramatic effect, though; they use them after periods and commas and semicolons and ellipses.
post=89171
I don't know if this works for XP and VX (I've only tried in RM2k3), but if I were the type that hates dialog pauses without exception, I would run Test Play from the maker and just hold Shift the entire time, making text boxes fill out instantly. Seems like a sensible thing to do, and I don't know why there's no option like this in the standalone exe.
Yeah, I don't know why people bitch about broken maps either. I mean in RM2k/3 you can just hold CTRL and walk through everything, so it just seems sensible that people would do that instead.
S. F. LaValle
1069
post=89170You're using the qualifier "if used properly". 99% of the time, pauses in RM games are not used properly.True. But that doesn't mean they can't be used to good effect, does it?
Pay very, very close attention to the point of the next sentence, F-G, because you seem to be missing it completely: if you're using pauses as a stand-in for what punctuation marks already accomplish (i.e.: control the flow of the narrative) you are using them improperly. Full stop.
How people speak and how people read/write are not the same thing.
EDIT: Start thinking of the characters more like actors than sprites; that's how I usually think of things when watching a cutscene. Admittedly, this is more applicable in modern RPGs were voice-acting actually exists, but I think dramatic pauses and the like are a good tool for developers to use when creating important cutscenes because it gives the impression that someone is actually saying the words.
I get what you're trying to say, that most of the time there isn't any need to put a pause after a comma because people automatically pause when reading a line like that. However, sometimes there is: it's all about the situation rather than taking a uniform rule and applying it to everything.
You've stated that written text and spoken words are two different things, but to me this just sounds like an attempt to make written text read like spoken words, which brings us back to the originally maligned point.
Yes, "dramatic pauses" CAN be used to good effect, but I can't think of any instance where using a pause after a comma is a proper use. This is an example of why speech and text should remain separated. In speech, people (sometimes) might pause where a comma would appear in text. Since we're reading text in RM games, and the text would look odd without a comma even if there was a pause to replace it, it would make sense to not add any additional mechanics to control a flow of speech that is already controlled.
I'm still saying that there are times when a pause in speech is warranted. These are circumstances where interrupted thoughts can't be conveyed in text unless the narrator specifically states it. Since the narrator mechanic is removed from (most) RM games, using things like pauses and ellipses, and even closing and opening message boxes all exist to help make up the gap in dramatic storytelling.
Drakonais
2787
post=89177
Yeah, I don't know why people bitch about broken maps either. I mean in RM2k/3 you can just hold CTRL and walk through everything, so it just seems sensible that people would do that instead.
Because the inability to cross from one side of the map to the other and progress through the game is exactly the same as a deliberate choice the gamemaker made that you happen to disagree with.
It was more of a question of why the text jump option doesn't carry over. Just like Shakespeare, if I find the build-up dialog too boring, I can skip a few pages to the action scenes.
The Real Brickroad
2626
post=89186
Because the inability to cross from one side of the map to the other and progress through the game is exactly the same as a deliberate choice the gamemaker made that you happen to disagree with.
It was more of a question of why the text jump option doesn't carry over.
Sorry, I'll try to be less subtle.
The SHIFT thing is a debug tool, just like the CTRL thing and the F9 menu. The player doesn't have these options available because, presumably, he's playing the game and not debugging it. In the case of XP/VX games, most ones I've played don't even give me the option of playing from the editor.
I could deliberately choose to design a map that requires the CTRL button to get through, but I doubt you'd defend me if I did. That's the point I was getting at. A bad decision is a bad decision.
People in the RM community don't use these pauses to create dramatic effect, though; they use them after periods and commas and semicolons and ellipses.
Maybe I don't play enough games, but I really don't encounter this all that often.
I use \! all the time though. I am very sensitive to "wall o' text; didn't read" so I put in \! to make sure that the player (in this case, me) actually acknowlodges the text he just read.
On the flipside, I HATE when a paragraph/sentene runs longer than one textbox.
I love sunny afternoons, and the
best place to go for soaking
in the sun has got to be behind
the palace grounds, near the
*PRESS ENTER*
old oak tree. I often see
Lord Kingsley there.
The Real Brickroad
2626
\! forces a button press, right? I think that's a much more elegant solution than a forced pause of some arbitrary length of time.
And yeah, I hate widows and orphans too. I think that's a concept most people just flat out don't think about at all, especially with XP/VX's batch text entry options.
And yeah, I hate widows and orphans too. I think that's a concept most people just flat out don't think about at all, especially with XP/VX's batch text entry options.
Drakonais
2787
No subtlety lost on me, I'm just not going to argue the distinction between objective and subjective bad decisions.
Glad \! is a suitable compromise. And I've spent so much time fitting plot points in those text boxes. I refuse to break a sentence over two boxes.
Glad \! is a suitable compromise. And I've spent so much time fitting plot points in those text boxes. I refuse to break a sentence over two boxes.
The Real Brickroad
2626
There's no such thing as an objective bad decision when it comes to game design. Don't be silly.
Drakonais
2787
post=89188
I could deliberately choose to design a map that requires the CTRL button to get through, but I doubt you'd defend me if I did. That's the point I was getting at. A bad decision is a bad decision.
Just saying a bad decision is your opinion, not a universally bad decision as I felt that implied, although the CTRL idea, that would for some people effectively render the game unplayable, comes close.
Also I'm trying to respect everyone's opinion, so feel free to pick apart my arguments all you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't suggest that I lack subtlety or I'm being silly.
It all comes down to people who do or don't appreciate pauses in their dialog. I see it both ways.
The Real Brickroad
2626
Just because something is subjective doesn't mean there's not a generally-accepted correct way of doing things. Again, I could make a map that requires CTRL to get through, and you could hold the opinion that such maps are fine (because, you see, you're supposed to use CTRL, so just do that). That doesn't make it good game design.
Stop trying to respect everyone's opinion; you'll kill yourself trying. Some opinions aren't worth respecting. Show respect to the person and give their opinions only as much respect as they're worth.
Stop trying to respect everyone's opinion; you'll kill yourself trying. Some opinions aren't worth respecting. Show respect to the person and give their opinions only as much respect as they're worth.
post=89176if you're using pauses as a stand-in for what punctuation marks already accomplish (i.e.: control the flow of the narrative) you are using them improperly. Full stop./agree.
I don't have facts of any sort supporting this, but I feel most punctuation was invented specifically for the purpose of replicating the flow of speech in a written format.
But that's neither here nor there. The discussion is geared more towards proper use of pauses (and ellipses). Here's how I see things:
"And the winner is..." *pause* "...Sporky Dorky!"
This is a proper use of pause. In speaking format, if there is a clear and sizeable interrupt (deliberate or not) while a thought is in process, then a pause is called for. In a written format, something like this:
"And the winner is..." the announcer began as he slowly opened the envelope. "Sporky Dorky!"
I don't think there are too many situations this would occur. Most of the time, in RM games, pauses are used between completed thoughts, which I don't agree with. This is why periods exist. If there needs to be a clear break between one completed thought and another, it's probably better to close the message window and open a new one.
That brings me to my next point: ellipses. Yes, they work well to create a dramatic pause, but just like too much of anything, overuse will dilute the impact. Ellipses should never be used to replace a period, they should be used to convey what a period can't. In my book, the particular circumstance is after an incomplete thought, which can optionally be followed by additional dialogue that pertains directly to the thought preceding the ellipsis.
I disagree. I think ellipse overuse is a horrible problem, don't get me wrong, but...
"By your logic, any indication of a pause in prose would also be wrong." Max paused.
MAX: Likewise, you are saying that something like the Pinter pause, in drama, is wrong.
A pause.
A period/full stop indicates a certain DURATION of pause. In fact, a pause can be longer (see above) or shorter (comma, for instance) than a period.
And yeah, I hate widows and orphans too. I think that's a concept most people just flat out don't think about at all, especially with XP/VX's batch text entry options.
I spend about half of my development time trying to avoid these, they bother me that much.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Yeah, I mixed up my definition of "pause" by using different contexts in my last post. In the first point, by "pause" I literally meant the command in RPG Maker which will add a delay in the speed which dialogue is printed on screen. In the second point about ellipses, "dramatic pause" was meant to indicate a storytelling device like the examples you provided.
To clarify, I never meant to say that pauses (the device) in prose or drama are wrong. Far from it; they are often necessary and are used to great effect. What I wanted to get behind was the motivation behind determining when a pause is appropriate, and how that motivation is applied to dialogue in our humble RM* games. Instead of showing how proper use of pause in games might look in prose and drama, I'll provide an inverse example; improper use of pause in RM* games conveyed in prose:
"The primitive structure was assembled approximately 20,000 years ago by a civilization of ancient gorillas." The narrator paused. "Prior to Dr. Watts's findings in the past century, it had been believed that these buildings were created by aliens."
I feel the pause there is incorrect; not because it's merely there, but because it was not used to add to the narration. It did not provide the reader with any additional insights, and nothing would be lost by simply omitting that line altogether (although, it would be fine, and justified, if the reader were clued into the reason the narrator paused). Converting back to game dialogue, adding pauses between sentences and commas just seems pointless.
I understand what you are saying about a pause being dynamic, and that different punctuation indicates different durations of pause which can all be used to achieve different effects. No arguments there. Again, with the ellipses, I just wanted to delve into the motivation behind their use, and their overuse. To put it simply, I think they are being used a lot because they are seen as some sort of "drama-in-a-can" that can be conveniently opened and poured over any narration to make it better. Kinda the same reason lighting effects are liberally applied without fully understanding how, why, or when they should be used.
To clarify, I never meant to say that pauses (the device) in prose or drama are wrong. Far from it; they are often necessary and are used to great effect. What I wanted to get behind was the motivation behind determining when a pause is appropriate, and how that motivation is applied to dialogue in our humble RM* games. Instead of showing how proper use of pause in games might look in prose and drama, I'll provide an inverse example; improper use of pause in RM* games conveyed in prose:
"The primitive structure was assembled approximately 20,000 years ago by a civilization of ancient gorillas." The narrator paused. "Prior to Dr. Watts's findings in the past century, it had been believed that these buildings were created by aliens."
I feel the pause there is incorrect; not because it's merely there, but because it was not used to add to the narration. It did not provide the reader with any additional insights, and nothing would be lost by simply omitting that line altogether (although, it would be fine, and justified, if the reader were clued into the reason the narrator paused). Converting back to game dialogue, adding pauses between sentences and commas just seems pointless.
I understand what you are saying about a pause being dynamic, and that different punctuation indicates different durations of pause which can all be used to achieve different effects. No arguments there. Again, with the ellipses, I just wanted to delve into the motivation behind their use, and their overuse. To put it simply, I think they are being used a lot because they are seen as some sort of "drama-in-a-can" that can be conveniently opened and poured over any narration to make it better. Kinda the same reason lighting effects are liberally applied without fully understanding how, why, or when they should be used.
Nightblade
2723
post=89229
Just because something is subjective doesn't mean there's not a generally-accepted correct way of doing things. Again, I could make a map that requires CTRL to get through, and you could hold the opinion that such maps are fine (because, you see, you're supposed to use CTRL, so just do that). That doesn't make it good game design.
Stop trying to respect everyone's opinion; you'll kill yourself trying. Some opinions aren't worth respecting. Show respect to the person and give their opinions only as much respect as they're worth.
Your example is hyperbole at it's finest, as one is a fatal flaw, and the other is what some would see as an inconvenience. Making a map that requires the use of the control debug button means it's impossible for the average player the finish the game. A dialogue pause is just a pause, it in no ways prevents the player from advancing.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Your example is hyperbole at it's finest, as one is a fatal flaw, and the other is what some would see as an inconvenience. Making a map that requires the use of the control debug button means it's impossible for the average player the finish the game. A dialogue pause is just a pause, it in no ways prevents the player from advancing.
Agreed, for the most part. I think the point was based off of the suggestion that if pauses really bother someone, they should open the game up in the editor and play through using the shift key, which is as silly as using the CTRL key to navigate maps.
If we cheat a bit and change the example from broken maps to maps that are just playing annoying to navigate (a long snaking path entered for no reason other than to require an obscenely long length of time to get from one end to the other), then the comparison is much better. People don't want to be subjected to annoying map design or annoying pauses, and suggesting to use the editor to bypass either one is not a solution.
The Real Brickroad
2626
post=89765
If we cheat a bit and change the example from broken maps to maps that are just playing annoying to navigate (a long snaking path entered for no reason other than to require an obscenely long length of time to get from one end to the other), then the comparison is much better. People don't want to be subjected to annoying map design or annoying pauses, and suggesting to use the editor to bypass either one is not a solution.
Precisely. Plus, holding down SHIFT can seriously throw off a game's timing. It's possible to craft a cutscene in RM2k/3 in such a way that using SHIFT to bypass the pauses can actually lock up the game... and there's no way to tell whether or not this is going to happen until it actually happens. (At which point there's no way to fix it but to quit the game and reload a previous save.)
I suppose it's true to say that pauses in RM text boxes are just an "inconvenience". But there are thousands of RM games out there. If yours inconveniences me, I'll just delete it and go on to the next guy's. (Or, if I'm reviewing it, I'll just lampoon your terrible design decision for the world to see. =))
Nightblade
2723
I'm beginning to think I should replace the download I have up with a pauseless version. It was already my intention to remove them in the final product, but I didn't know it pissed some people off so much (most people, when asked simply stated they didn't care about the short pauses)
Mr.Nemo
1295
Most importantly; I never see anyone complaining about text NOT containing pauses or being "not-too-dramatic" without these effects, so you do nothing but benefit from removing any and all pauses in your game :)
Also, in RMVX, there is a function to display text instantly. Pretty awesome, aye?
Also, in RMVX, there is a function to display text instantly. Pretty awesome, aye?
Drakonais
2787
Seems Enterbrain got wise for VX then. It should be adjustable in-game.
Really, the SHIFT suggestion was merely a compromise for those, as Brickroad says, could be incovenienced out of playing it for that reason alone (granted that separate download would suffice, NightBlade, not a bad idea). I mean, it seems clear to me that if you aren't enjoying a game for any reason, it's simple enough to find something more enjoyable to do.
I think when I actually complete a finished product, I will make two versions, one with some pauses and the other totally devoid of them. Seems that would sate the community divide, no?
EDIT: I love how this has become "The ONE thing I learned from RMNCasts"
Really, the SHIFT suggestion was merely a compromise for those, as Brickroad says, could be incovenienced out of playing it for that reason alone (granted that separate download would suffice, NightBlade, not a bad idea). I mean, it seems clear to me that if you aren't enjoying a game for any reason, it's simple enough to find something more enjoyable to do.
I think when I actually complete a finished product, I will make two versions, one with some pauses and the other totally devoid of them. Seems that would sate the community divide, no?
EDIT: I love how this has become "The ONE thing I learned from RMNCasts"
