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THE 9 THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THE RMNCASTS
Posts
Mr.Nemo
1295
Mr.Nemo
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Closeor, even more awesome, selecting it ingame. Very tiresome, indeed, but it would be nice.
EDIT:
But mostly just remove the pauses for all versions, forever
EDIT:
But mostly just remove the pauses for all versions, forever
If short pauses in dialogue are really that annoying it's probably because the dialogue is bad to begin with. Otherwise, the user wouldn't be so desperately anxious to get it over with.
post=90619
If short pauses in dialogue are really that annoying it's probably because the dialogue is bad to begin with. Otherwise, the user wouldn't be so desperately anxious to get it over with.
topic over
post=87388
8. Long intros aren't fun, they're boring. More than a minute of intro is too long. People like to play the game.
I just wanted to ask something real quick... About number 8, if you have a game that ties in to things that occurred in the past, isn't it good to have a fair decent amount of history played at the beginning of the game for the intro?
I mean, sure there is a very fine line that you need to be VERY careful with when you do things like this, but I like to think of how FFVII the movie did it; they played the intro to show what happened in the past and to explain why their world was so screwed up now and then plopped you right on into the movie and allowed to characters of the movie to explain the rest to you as it went on.
What I guess I'm trying to figure out is what would everyone really constitute as too much time spent at the beginning and too little time spent on the beginning?
Silviera
2891
It's important to note that movies are a very different form of media compared videogames. Namely movies require no input from the user, whereas when someone sits down to play a game, they have probably done so in order to actually play a game instead of just watch it.
Although some narratives are improved with a large backstory, there's nothing that says you have to give everything away up front with a long intro. Players like to have a little mystery involved, maybe they even spend some time uncovering past events and the way they relate to their own adventure.
If you absolutely have to give history right up front, then make the intro playable too! Maybe there was a great war a long time ago. Instead of just telling the player about it throw them into the game as a soldier who was participating in it and sees the events firsthand. Maybe there was a group of heroes who took down some evil overlord long ago. Let the player take control of those epic heroes as they blast him to dust. The whole point of gaming is that everything is a lot more fun when you're in control of the most awesome moments, rather than just watching everything unfold.
Edit: As for the intro timing, I'd say 3 minutes is tolerable. Shorter is better, and anything over 5 and you're probably doing something wrong.
Although some narratives are improved with a large backstory, there's nothing that says you have to give everything away up front with a long intro. Players like to have a little mystery involved, maybe they even spend some time uncovering past events and the way they relate to their own adventure.
If you absolutely have to give history right up front, then make the intro playable too! Maybe there was a great war a long time ago. Instead of just telling the player about it throw them into the game as a soldier who was participating in it and sees the events firsthand. Maybe there was a group of heroes who took down some evil overlord long ago. Let the player take control of those epic heroes as they blast him to dust. The whole point of gaming is that everything is a lot more fun when you're in control of the most awesome moments, rather than just watching everything unfold.
Edit: As for the intro timing, I'd say 3 minutes is tolerable. Shorter is better, and anything over 5 and you're probably doing something wrong.
Mr.Nemo
1295
Look; too much information at one time is not good - especially not before the player has even gotten a "feel" on the game.
Give the player just about enough intro to grasp what's around him when he starts interacting - the rest can come later. If you have an intro consisting of background to your all immersive mega-world with wars of the past and great demons that were sealed - hint it in dialouges, the surroundings and mention references to it in related cutscenes - one at a time.
Also, take a careful consideration of "what does the character know and what does the player NEED to know to understand anything?", which information that is interesting and immersive but still not ENTIRELY important for the plot (this can be distributed through regular npc dialouges or random books w/e) and finally, how the preceeding (present or future if you do that) events affect the actual plot.
Give the player just about enough intro to grasp what's around him when he starts interacting - the rest can come later. If you have an intro consisting of background to your all immersive mega-world with wars of the past and great demons that were sealed - hint it in dialouges, the surroundings and mention references to it in related cutscenes - one at a time.
Also, take a careful consideration of "what does the character know and what does the player NEED to know to understand anything?", which information that is interesting and immersive but still not ENTIRELY important for the plot (this can be distributed through regular npc dialouges or random books w/e) and finally, how the preceeding (present or future if you do that) events affect the actual plot.
DFalcon
2141
post=91111post=87388I just wanted to ask something real quick... About number 8, if you have a game that ties in to things that occurred in the past, isn't it good to have a fair decent amount of history played at the beginning of the game for the intro?
8. Long intros aren't fun, they're boring. More than a minute of intro is too long. People like to play the game.
I mean, sure there is a very fine line that you need to be VERY careful with when you do things like this, but I like to think of how FFVII the movie did it; they played the intro to show what happened in the past and to explain why their world was so screwed up now and then plopped you right on into the movie and allowed to characters of the movie to explain the rest to you as it went on.
What I guess I'm trying to figure out is what would everyone really constitute as too much time spent at the beginning and too little time spent on the beginning?
I hate to put it like this, but: no, it isn't good. Or at least it depends what you mean by "fair decent".
I actually haven't seen the FF7 movie, but it has two things going for it right from the start:
1) It's largely for people who've played FF7 - they're already interested.
2) It's a movie. It has lower expectations for interactivity and, let's be honest, more impressive non-interactive ways of getting things across than most of us are going to manage.
If your hook is in the history, then by all means lead off with some history - but only so you can get to the hook. Omit details and don't text dump or include a lot of names. If you're having trouble getting it out that way, the initial hook needn't necessarily be very related to the main conflict or setting of the game - maybe it's something to keep the player going until they absorb enough information for the main hook to make sense.
post=91118
I actually haven't seen the FF7 movie, but it has two things going for it right from the start:
1) It's largely for people who've played FF7 - they're already interested.
2) It's a movie. It has lower expectations for interactivity and, let's be honest, more impressive non-interactive ways of getting things across than most of us are going to manage.
OK, bad example to use, I know... But my point wasn't the movie itself, my point was how they portrayed the history of it all. The premises of how they portrayed it; they used multiple "shot's" if you will to basically explain the reason for everyone being sick and dying in like one simple phrase spoken by one little girl. I can't remember the phrase, it was something about Gyostigma or whatever it is. But that's all besides the point; the point is, it was simple clear and sweet... Another one would be the Lord of the Rings, the second movie, it opened showing two people enjoying themselves and then finding the ring or whatever and the ultimate down fall of man kind in that one false swoop (yes I know, another movie...); a good game to use as well was Xenosaga, can't think of any others off the top of my head, but you see where I'm driving at. They all used history as a means to make the present understandable...
post=91118
Omit details and don't text dump or include a lot of names. If you're having trouble getting it out that way, the initial hook needn't necessarily be very related to the main conflict or setting of the game - maybe it's something to keep the player going until they absorb enough information for the main hook to make sense.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand what you mean by this... If by omit details and text dump you mean don't include things that really are not necessary for the opening, then yeah, I understand that. But if not, then I'm sorry, could you elaborate for me? And at what point is the history telling too much...? How do you find the fine line between, "Well I know this is very important, but I have the opening already going at 3 minutes long... Should I or shouldn't I add it?" and "Well, its already 3 minutes long, another small subject like this wont hurt." Do you see what I'm saying?
My game revolves around what destroyed the world years ago and how the people have learned to live on after it and have even evolved beyond it. But the evil returns later on, and I want the player to understand when it gets to that point and basically sit there and go, "Oh crap! That again!? Wow, the worlds in big trouble now!", you get what I mean... -.- I'm just not sure what the limit would be for that... I suppose the only way to know would be to get it done and then offer a demo and see what people say I guess, would that be wise to think?
Thanks btw for responding in a kind manner... It is appreciated more then you know! :)
post=91113
If you absolutely have to give history right up front, then make the intro playable too! Maybe there was a great war a long time ago. Instead of just telling the player about it throw them into the game as a soldier who was participating in it and sees the events firsthand. Maybe there was a group of heroes who took down some evil overlord long ago. Let the player take control of those epic heroes as they blast him to dust. The whole point of gaming is that everything is a lot more fun when you're in control of the most awesome moments, rather than just watching everything unfold.
0.o Oh... my... word... I would of NEVER thought of this!! I have a WHOLE new idea for the beginning of my game now! Oh thank you thank you thank you! :D (Credits to you for it btw... )
post=91114
Also, take a careful consideration of "what does the character know and what does the player NEED to know to understand anything?", which information that is interesting and immersive but still not ENTIRELY important for the plot (this can be distributed through regular npc dialouges or random books w/e) and finally, how the preceeding (present or future if you do that) events affect the actual plot.
Wow, thank you! Great idea... There will be plenty of old books to be found in my game, I suppose I could really just add it in there, and then at that point give the player the option to read them if he/she want's to.
Thank you everyone for you kind comments and assistance on this matter, you have NO idea how much it really helped! :) My game is going to have to be pushed back to a later release date now... -.- Lol, oh well... :)
Thanks again!
Personally, I find intros where I play along as a throwaway character to be really jarring. I play, get invested in the character and BAM, gone forever. Plus these kinds of intros take longer to get through, and are almost always unskippable (for a replay). I would much prefer sitting passively through an interesting intro slideshow/movie/textwall for 10 mins than play through a meaningless intro for 30mins.
Silviera
2891
To me it largely depends on how the scene is done. A case where I enjoyed a playable intro segment was Lufia 1, which dumps you right on the Final Boss's doorstep and throws you into a boss rush immediately. It's short, it tells you a lot about the backstory, and most importantly it is completely relevant as the main character is a direct descendant of this hero and will be facing the same threat (not to mention you'll actually be seeing 6/8 of the characters present in this intro later on in the game).
As for an example of where I thought this was poorly done, I look towards FFXII and Metal Gear Solid 2. The former case which was apparently used to flesh out Vaan further which was not really needed as he was basically irrelevant to the main plot in the first place. And in the latter case the game starts you off with the hero you've grown attached to only to replace him with a less than desirable lead.
Anyway, it's complicated, but I think it's a valid replacement for a lengthy scene if done correctly.
As for an example of where I thought this was poorly done, I look towards FFXII and Metal Gear Solid 2. The former case which was apparently used to flesh out Vaan further which was not really needed as he was basically irrelevant to the main plot in the first place. And in the latter case the game starts you off with the hero you've grown attached to only to replace him with a less than desirable lead.
Anyway, it's complicated, but I think it's a valid replacement for a lengthy scene if done correctly.
Right, my main thought was to just simply have a minute or two of the history and then it brings you to the history of the final boss they had to defeat (which in turn introduces the player to the evil and threat of the game allowing you to realize just how deadly it really is) and then give away a little something to allow you to realize later in the game "Oh! Hey, he's related to what's-his-butt from the opening movie!", you see what I'm saying. Thanks again guys! You cleared something up for me that I had been struggling with for a while now. :)
post=91137It helps that it sets up the entirety of Basch's plot, along with detailing the exact happening of Dalmasca's fall.
The former case which was apparently used to flesh out Vaan further which was not really needed as he was basically irrelevant to the main plot in the first place.
Silviera
2891
I have to say I felt Basch was pretty irrelevant too, and just about every character and subplot in that entire game. Then again I tended to zone out a lot during it so maybe I'm not the best judge. I guess I'm saying I feel the plot was irrelevant to the plot in that game.
Edit: Back on topic, glad to be of service kitten2021.
Edit: Back on topic, glad to be of service kitten2021.
WolfCoder
3554
3. I kind of disagree with the pauses thing. A little, I mean. Occasionally I use the \| command. It's short, and I barely notice it. Most of the time the characters are just talking and you can assume they're hesitating or whatever from the use of ... and in their actions.
8. As for long intros, I like a long intro myself. But I don't just have the player watch a huge opening, I like those kinds of intros where you immediately have to start playing. Look at FF7, there's only a short movie that ends with people jumping out of the train. The whole background to what you are and what you're doing is revealed through the fight across the first reactor.
You've got story and dialog, but you also get to play.
8. As for long intros, I like a long intro myself. But I don't just have the player watch a huge opening, I like those kinds of intros where you immediately have to start playing. Look at FF7, there's only a short movie that ends with people jumping out of the train. The whole background to what you are and what you're doing is revealed through the fight across the first reactor.
You've got story and dialog, but you also get to play.
Mr.Nemo
1295
post=92125
3. I kind of disagree with the pauses thing. A little, I mean. Occasionally I use the \| command. It's short, and I barely notice it. Most of the time the characters are just talking and you can assume they're hesitating or whatever from the use of ... and in their actions.
post=920693. Dialog should NEVER have pauses.That is all.
