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DISCUSSION: PUZZLES AND MINIGAMES.
Posts
beakmanthegreat
130
beakmanthegreat
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CloseEDIT: Discussion Topic #1 To puzzle or not to puzzle?
Do you ever put puzzles in your games?
If yes, which puzzle that you've put in your games is your favorite?
If no, why?
Also, which puzzle from an RMN game you've played was your LEAST favorite, and why?
Do you ever put puzzles in your games?
If yes, which puzzle that you've put in your games is your favorite?
If no, why?
Also, which puzzle from an RMN game you've played was your LEAST favorite, and why?
Relyt
1242
I like block puzzles. I also like the puzzle that you described. Brings back grand Minish Cap Memories.
beakmanthegreat
130
Ahh yes, Minish Cap. I played that game (almost) to 100%
If I had known I couldn't fuse kinstones with the king after a certain point I would've fused with him before.
I had to sit at 99% complete forever, or start a new game.
The reapperance of seashells (from Link's Awakening) and the general gameplay ALSO reminding me of links awakening both made me like the game more.
Because Link's Awakening is the shit. Period.
If I had known I couldn't fuse kinstones with the king after a certain point I would've fused with him before.
I had to sit at 99% complete forever, or start a new game.
The reapperance of seashells (from Link's Awakening) and the general gameplay ALSO reminding me of links awakening both made me like the game more.
Because Link's Awakening is the shit. Period.
An RPG's minigames should either be optional or non-pivotal. I don't want precision movement/timing games to be required in order to advance the story. That's why I play RPGs. I'd invariably suck at minigames that require any kind of accuracy or quick motions. So would lots of players. So don't make the entire game depend heavily on those. At the most, you should present a sliding scale of item rewards based on the players' performance. (An example from FF7 which I'm sure a lot of us have seen: "What the hell was that soldier doing?" "I don't know. Send him a bomb or something." "Received Grenade!")
And now, lemme tell you what I think about those bizarre mind-puzzles often seen in dungeons. Yeah, I know some game designers like to show off their mad custom coding skills by putting puzzles all over the place, but is this what the players asked for when they downloaded something packaged as an RPG? No? Didn't think so. Unless the solution is online somewhere (perhaps on the author's website), expect a lot of your players to give up your game altogether out of confusion and anger. You have been warned.
At the very least, you could present alternatives to the puzzles you've built, in case there are players out there who just want to see how the story ends, and wouldn't mind fighting a boss (or five or ten consecutive battles) instead of having to deal with something they just can't figure out.
This is why you will never hear me say anything good about Lufia, Shadow Hearts, or Mario & Luigi (with the possible exception of their awesome soundtracks).
And now, lemme tell you what I think about those bizarre mind-puzzles often seen in dungeons. Yeah, I know some game designers like to show off their mad custom coding skills by putting puzzles all over the place, but is this what the players asked for when they downloaded something packaged as an RPG? No? Didn't think so. Unless the solution is online somewhere (perhaps on the author's website), expect a lot of your players to give up your game altogether out of confusion and anger. You have been warned.
At the very least, you could present alternatives to the puzzles you've built, in case there are players out there who just want to see how the story ends, and wouldn't mind fighting a boss (or five or ten consecutive battles) instead of having to deal with something they just can't figure out.
This is why you will never hear me say anything good about Lufia, Shadow Hearts, or Mario & Luigi (with the possible exception of their awesome soundtracks).
beakmanthegreat
130
post=94134
An RPG's minigames should either be optional or non-pivotal. I don't want precision movement/timing games to be required in order to advance the story. That's why I play RPGs. I'd invariably suck at minigames that require any kind of accuracy or quick motions. So would lots of players. So don't make the entire game depend heavily on those. At the most, you should present a sliding scale of item rewards based on the players' performance. (An example from FF7 which I'm sure a lot of us have seen: "What the hell was that soldier doing?" "I don't know. Send him a bomb or something." "Received Grenade!")
I agree. But a lot of RPG's also have an Active-Battle-System; do you not play these altogether?
And now, lemme tell you what I think about those bizarre mind-puzzles often seen in dungeons. Yeah, I know some game designers like to show off their mad custom coding skills by putting puzzles all over the place, but is this what the players asked for when they downloaded something packaged as an RPG? No? Didn't think so. Unless the solution is online somewhere (perhaps on the author's website), expect a lot of your players to give up your game altogether out of confusion and anger. You have been warned.
I DISagree. When I buy a Traditional RPG, I expect to find a few simple puzzles, at least.
I'm not talking walk-around-and-find-the-right--elevator-order puzzles, or super complex puzzles.
Those suck.
I mean logic puzzles.
Stuff that you should be able to figure out if you are old enough to be playing an RPG.
EDIT: What do you guys think of making a sudoku-type puzzle as an optional puzzle?
You would have to change tiles on a 5x5 grid, (by stepping on them and pressing the action button,)
so that no like-colored tiles colors were in the same row or column?
Any kind of an RPG should be winnable with enough leveling (and exploitation of the side-systems, like item creation). Even in action RPGs like Secret of Mana, if you're not quick on the draw, you should still be able to succeed by gaining a few more levels than is recommended.
Some of the logic puzzles I've seen are on the esoteric side. Like, you can tell they were made with the game designers' special fields of interest at heart. For example, I once played an RPG with a puzzle relating to astrology and constellations, and you would have to be an expert at those in order to solve the puzzle and progress in the game. Not everybody knows the names for all the stars in Orion's Belt off the top of their head, so the least game designers can do is accommodate their players (their audience) by helping them every step of the way. If you're a game creator, you want a loyal fanbase more than anything, and the one way to avoid this outcome is by being a jerk.
EDIT: As for a sudoku puzzle, it would HAVE to be optional. Sudoku's not for everybody. I'm friends with a lot of newspaper comic/puzzle fans, and none of us have any idea how to succeed in Sudoku. We're more interested in crosswords, Scrabble, Jumble, etc. (Which would be nearly impossible to reproduce in an RPG Maker program...)
Some of the logic puzzles I've seen are on the esoteric side. Like, you can tell they were made with the game designers' special fields of interest at heart. For example, I once played an RPG with a puzzle relating to astrology and constellations, and you would have to be an expert at those in order to solve the puzzle and progress in the game. Not everybody knows the names for all the stars in Orion's Belt off the top of their head, so the least game designers can do is accommodate their players (their audience) by helping them every step of the way. If you're a game creator, you want a loyal fanbase more than anything, and the one way to avoid this outcome is by being a jerk.
EDIT: As for a sudoku puzzle, it would HAVE to be optional. Sudoku's not for everybody. I'm friends with a lot of newspaper comic/puzzle fans, and none of us have any idea how to succeed in Sudoku. We're more interested in crosswords, Scrabble, Jumble, etc. (Which would be nearly impossible to reproduce in an RPG Maker program...)
Fractal Advocate
1252
I disagree, with you, Indogutsu, as long as the RPG is properly marketed.
I mean, if it's marketed as the puzzling puzzle RPG with puzzles(say, befuddle quest), and you come in and see puzzles... well, that's kinda the point. Being up front about what your game is about is usually a good idea, though.
There's probably some aspect of any RPG design that's likely to frustrate or bore someone, so singling one out as not valid because of personal taste seems odd to me.
That said, this is getting kinda off-topic, so I'll return to the initial subject.
My favorite type of puzzle/minigame is generally one that either gives you interesting abilities and lets you figure out how to use them, or moves the plot ahead while you solve it.
I mean, if it's marketed as the puzzling puzzle RPG with puzzles(say, befuddle quest), and you come in and see puzzles... well, that's kinda the point. Being up front about what your game is about is usually a good idea, though.
There's probably some aspect of any RPG design that's likely to frustrate or bore someone, so singling one out as not valid because of personal taste seems odd to me.
That said, this is getting kinda off-topic, so I'll return to the initial subject.
My favorite type of puzzle/minigame is generally one that either gives you interesting abilities and lets you figure out how to use them, or moves the plot ahead while you solve it.
WolfCoder
3554
Lufia 2 was amazing for puzzles. I want minigames and stuff. I even loved the weird version of Galaga that you played as one of the minigames for Tales of Destiny with the seaships.
beakmanthegreat
130
Some of the logic puzzles I've seen are on the esoteric side. Like, you can tell they were made with the game designers' special fields of interest at heart. For example, I once played an RPG with a puzzle relating to astrology and constellations, and you would have to be an expert at those in order to solve the puzzle and progress in the game. Not everybody knows the names for all the stars in Orion's Belt off the top of their head, so the least game designers can do is accommodate their players (their audience) by helping them every step of the way. If you're a game creator, you want a loyal fanbase more than anything, and the one way to avoid this outcome is by being a jerk.
I was thinking about giving the players a simple chemistry puzzle to solve. While not giving the answer outright, I was going to give the players three "basic laws of chemistry" which would tell them how to solve said chemistry puzzle. Like:
EDIT: Had to fix sign one. I was writing it at 1 A.M and totally messed up.
Heres the fixed version of the puzzle.
Sign one: The Four Laws of Chemistry
1. A completed atom has 8 Element points.
2. An atom is made up of a central element,
and the four elements directly adjacent to it.
(up, down, left, and right.)
3. Elements share element points with other elements next to them.
(an aelement in the upper right corner affect both the element to
its left and below it. That element affects the elements IT touches,
and so on and so forth.)
4. Some materials are made of more than one atom.
Sign Two: Element Points
Each element is worth a certain amount of element points.
Fire = 1, Water = 2, Air = 3, and Earth = 4
How does that sound for the puzzle help?
EDIT: As for a sudoku puzzle, it would HAVE to be optional. Sudoku's not for everybody. I'm friends with a lot of newspaper comic/puzzle fans, and none of us have any idea how to succeed in Sudoku. We're more interested in crosswords, Scrabble, Jumble, etc. (Which would be nearly impossible to reproduce in an RPG Maker program...)
Thanks for the feedback. :)
I was thinking about giving the players a simple chemistry puzzle to solve. While not giving the answer outright, I was going to give the players three "basic laws of chemistry" which would tell them how to solve said chemistry puzzle. Like:
EDIT: Had to fix sign one. I was writing it at 1 A.M and totally messed up.
Heres the fixed version of the puzzle.
Sign one: The Four Laws of Chemistry
1. A completed atom has 8 Element points.
2. An atom is made up of a central element,
and the four elements directly adjacent to it.
(up, down, left, and right.)
3. Elements share element points with other elements next to them.
(an aelement in the upper right corner affect both the element to
its left and below it. That element affects the elements IT touches,
and so on and so forth.)
4. Some materials are made of more than one atom.
Sign Two: Element Points
Each element is worth a certain amount of element points.
Fire = 1, Water = 2, Air = 3, and Earth = 4
How does that sound for the puzzle help?
EDIT: As for a sudoku puzzle, it would HAVE to be optional. Sudoku's not for everybody. I'm friends with a lot of newspaper comic/puzzle fans, and none of us have any idea how to succeed in Sudoku. We're more interested in crosswords, Scrabble, Jumble, etc. (Which would be nearly impossible to reproduce in an RPG Maker program...)
Thanks for the feedback. :)
I like well thought out puzzles that fit with the game. Switches and buttons in are puzzle are the easy way out. Sure you can press a switch and open a door but it's not at all practical in real life and it can be used interchangably with magic since you have no idea how that switch even did that except for no other reason than that switches are used like that in games. Well what I guess what I am saying is that I like puzzles that use the environment in ways that make you think.
Drakonais
2787
Why would you want a Sudoku puzzle in your game? I guess it's mind work, but I like a good spacial puzzle over anything.
beakmanthegreat
130
post=94168Sign one: The Three Laws of ChemistryAs a chemist, I'd stop playing if I saw this sign. I'm not even kidding.
1. A completed atom has 8 Element points.
2. An atom is made up of a central element,
and the four elements directly adjacent to it.
(up, down, left, and right.)
3. Atoms share elements with other atoms next to them.
(an atom in the upper right corner affects both the atom to
its left and below it. That atom affects the atoms it touches,
and so on and so forth.)
Well, what if a ten year old plays my game?
I don't want people who don't know anything about chemistry, or have forgotten since high school to have to google search how to solve my puzzle.
Plus, a few posts ago someone stated a puzzle that you needed to be an expert on astronomy to solve.
Sorry, but just because I know a lot about astronomy, doesn't mean the player wants to. I should just give them the basic information they need to solve the puzzle.
BTW... I, too, aspire to be a chemist.
You don't know how insanely cool it is that I've met a chemist; here , of all places. :D
beakmanthegreat
130
EDIT: Had to fix sign one. I was writing it at 1 A.M. and totally messed up.
Heres the fixed version of the puzzle.
Sign one: The Four Laws of Chemistry
1. A completed atom has 8 Element points.
2. An atom is made up of a central element,
and the four elements directly adjacent to it.
(up, down, left, and right.)
3. Elements share element points with other elements next to them.
(an element in the upper right corner affect both the element to
its left and below it. That element affects the elements IT touches,
and so on and so forth.)
4. Some materials are made of more than one atom.
Sign Two: Element Points
Each element is worth a certain amount of element points.
Fire = 1, Water = 2, Air = 3, and Earth = 4
Heres the fixed version of the puzzle.
Sign one: The Four Laws of Chemistry
1. A completed atom has 8 Element points.
2. An atom is made up of a central element,
and the four elements directly adjacent to it.
(up, down, left, and right.)
3. Elements share element points with other elements next to them.
(an element in the upper right corner affect both the element to
its left and below it. That element affects the elements IT touches,
and so on and so forth.)
4. Some materials are made of more than one atom.
Sign Two: Element Points
Each element is worth a certain amount of element points.
Fire = 1, Water = 2, Air = 3, and Earth = 4
Neophyte
155
Logic puzzles really irk me because they almost never have anything to do with the game world. When a person is playing a game, they want to be immersed into that world and not the laws of real life. So anything that requires knowledge that is not built into the game itself just comes off as weak and breaks the immersion.
Exit Fate had some sort of quiz thing in one of the dungeons where you had to memorize what year/month a certain king was born by reading something. Anything like that is cool.
Be consistent and do things related to the surroundings of how your game plays out. Adding a clever puzzle out of the blue doesn't give your game +5 cleverness.
I hope you understand this, boldmanthegreat.
Exit Fate had some sort of quiz thing in one of the dungeons where you had to memorize what year/month a certain king was born by reading something. Anything like that is cool.
Be consistent and do things related to the surroundings of how your game plays out. Adding a clever puzzle out of the blue doesn't give your game +5 cleverness.
I hope you understand this, boldmanthegreat.
beakmanthegreat
130
post=94178
Logic puzzles really irk me because they almost never have anything to do with the game world. When a person is playing a game, they want to be immersed into that world and not the laws of real life. So anything that requires knowledge that is not built into the game itself just comes off as weak and breaks the immersion.
Exit Fate had some sort of quiz thing in one of the dungeons where you had to memorize what year/month a certain king was born by reading something. Anything like that is cool.
Be consistent and do things related to the surroundings of how your game plays out. Adding a clever puzzle out of the blue doesn't give your game +5 cleverness.
I hope you understand this, boldmanthegreat.
Sorry, the bold was originally to separate my post from the qoutes...
But I got carried away. :P
Anyway, the chemistry puzzle is going to be on an optional "puzzle Island".
The mad scientist will pay you for each new material you make.
It fits with the flavor because the "elements" (earth, fire, wind, and water,) are pretty much sacred.
They created everything, so why can't this guy use them to create things?
The sudoku puzzle was going to be in a "balance" dungeon.
It fits because none of the other elements should be in the same row or column.
(it would say they "need to stay divided to avoid one becoming too powerful.")
Again, it uses earth, fire, wind, and water.
...But thinking about it, it would be hella hard to code a sudoku.
beakmanthegreat
130
post=94188
You shouldn't really be making puzzles that require specific, out-of-game knowledge anyway.
Case-in-Point: The stupid braille alphabet messages in Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire.
Then again, they DID give you the braille alphabet in a-z order...
But it was in braille. How was I supposed to know that that was the key to deciphering it?
What about my chemistry puzzle?
All the information you need to solve it is there, its OPTIONAL, and even though it tells you what you need to solve it, when you do solve it, you still feel like you did it on your own.
But, to argue for my sudoku puzzle idea, (should I be able to code it, >.>) a sudoku with a 4x4 grid (instead of 9x9)shouldn't be TOO terribly difficult to solve...
beakmanthegreat
130
Discussion Topic #1 To puzzle or not to puzzle?
Do you ever put puzzles in your games?
If yes, which puzzle that you've put in your games is your favorite?
If no, why?
Also, which puzzle from an RMN game you've played was your LEAST favorite, and why?
Do you ever put puzzles in your games?
If yes, which puzzle that you've put in your games is your favorite?
If no, why?
Also, which puzzle from an RMN game you've played was your LEAST favorite, and why?
Ramshackin
1462
Puzzles that make you open up the game in rpgmaker just to know how to solve them are horrid.
For the most part, puzzles should be simple and easy to understand. For example: locked door, switch you aren't heavy enough to press down, rock on other side of room.
As for your chemistry puzzle, people won't be very willing to learn the laws of chemistry of your fantasy world, especially when the laws and elements are different from real chemistry. Since it's optional, you can include it, but unless the reward is worth it, most people won't bother.
I think the best way to do a hard/tricky puzzle like the sudoku puzzle is to make it optional and put it in a place the player will frequently return to, like the main town. If they can't figure it out, they can always just continue with the game and try again later.
For the most part, puzzles should be simple and easy to understand. For example: locked door, switch you aren't heavy enough to press down, rock on other side of room.
As for your chemistry puzzle, people won't be very willing to learn the laws of chemistry of your fantasy world, especially when the laws and elements are different from real chemistry. Since it's optional, you can include it, but unless the reward is worth it, most people won't bother.
I think the best way to do a hard/tricky puzzle like the sudoku puzzle is to make it optional and put it in a place the player will frequently return to, like the main town. If they can't figure it out, they can always just continue with the game and try again later.
