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OLDSCHOOL RPGS AKA THE BLINDING LIGHTS OF NOSTALGIA
Posts
Darken
3952
Darken
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CloseThis actually has been on my mind for some time. It's no surprise to see games made from a program boldly titled "RPG Maker" to have many 8-bit attempts at the ever so classic Dragon Quest or old FF games. Afterall, its these games that inspired Enterbrain/ASCII to make RM in the first place.
There are a lot of benefits for an "oldschool" project. First, everyone will forgive you for no new/slightly changed game mechanics, outdated aesthetics, a plot that consists of a hero and an evil lord, etc. It's a good example of how nostalgia is a very powerful tool. But I'm not here to bash games like Dragon Fantasy or Hero's Realm (I like some of them). Just to provoke discussion about them.
I remember starting a gameboy type of game where the graphics were only 4 shades of green. It was very easy to come up with original graphics, and even if they weren't good, people would still say "Oh how lovely for you to TAKE ME BACKKKK." Nothing wrong with bringing back the past once in awhile, but when you keep all of the traditions as they once were, theres a huge reminder of the negative things the old days had.
The main point I would like to bring up is, what makes some RPGs oldschool or new? Obviously many of us have very SNES graphics/feel tied with some more advanced effects through the powers of RM. However, there are commericial RM games out there that sell themselves as oldschool RPGs even though they have RMXP RTP graphics, which is quite hilarious if you ask me. So what are your thoughts?
There are a lot of benefits for an "oldschool" project. First, everyone will forgive you for no new/slightly changed game mechanics, outdated aesthetics, a plot that consists of a hero and an evil lord, etc. It's a good example of how nostalgia is a very powerful tool. But I'm not here to bash games like Dragon Fantasy or Hero's Realm (I like some of them). Just to provoke discussion about them.
I remember starting a gameboy type of game where the graphics were only 4 shades of green. It was very easy to come up with original graphics, and even if they weren't good, people would still say "Oh how lovely for you to TAKE ME BACKKKK." Nothing wrong with bringing back the past once in awhile, but when you keep all of the traditions as they once were, theres a huge reminder of the negative things the old days had.
The main point I would like to bring up is, what makes some RPGs oldschool or new? Obviously many of us have very SNES graphics/feel tied with some more advanced effects through the powers of RM. However, there are commericial RM games out there that sell themselves as oldschool RPGs even though they have RMXP RTP graphics, which is quite hilarious if you ask me. So what are your thoughts?
I think you have a very good point, and "old school" is more often than not just a gimmick that isn't all that accurate.
Old school should mean like... Dragon Fantasy or Hellion only.
Old school should mean like... Dragon Fantasy or Hellion only.
Manifesto
33
Well I think the community that doesn't know the RM series will go like "WOW! THIS LOOKS JUST LIKE FF__"
and get into nostalgia but since we already know what the rtp looks like we won't get that feeling (except Hero's Realm, which used small chibi charsets.)
In my opinion, any game that keeps it 8-bit can be called "old school" but the problem is that if a game is using 16-bit graphics, it can't be as nostalgic because, well, the community has been using those graphics for a long time.
(Heck, there are actually a bunch of 8bit games now. Time to start an Atari styled rpg > :D )
and get into nostalgia but since we already know what the rtp looks like we won't get that feeling (except Hero's Realm, which used small chibi charsets.)
In my opinion, any game that keeps it 8-bit can be called "old school" but the problem is that if a game is using 16-bit graphics, it can't be as nostalgic because, well, the community has been using those graphics for a long time.
(Heck, there are actually a bunch of 8bit games now. Time to start an Atari styled rpg > :D )
Hmm...
Generally, a lot of people equate simplicity (such as a simple plot, gameplay mechanics and graphics) to the 'oldschool.'
One must understand, though, that the oldest games are often the simplest because they had few or no examples to follow. Games are as they are now through the creation, distribution and use of ideas. The value of games has long since shifted from the values of innovation to those of execution. After all, Spacewar! and Pong were only fun at the time because they were new - not because they were good games.
Basically, I don't really consider Hero's Realm, Dragon Fantasy and Paradise Blue oldschool in the technical sense. I know they are trying to achieve it aesthetically, and that is fine with me really, but oldschool games are oldschool because they are old - and really, has anyone played Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star or Megami Tensei lately? The RM* community's 'oldschool' RPGs really don't play anything like them, and that's not just because of the rm2k/3 battle system. It's because all the games I just mentioned are tremendously flawed - any gamer that's played an RPG within the last fifteen years or so years knows this. With that knowledge, the makers try to avoid the mistakes that make games like the original Dragon Quest just plain unenjoyable to most modern gamers.
Because really, no one wants to play Dragon Quest. They want to play a game that reminds them of Dragon Quest. Oldschool is an aesthetic and atmosphere some people choose to emulate. It doesn't make the games inherently oldschool in any sense of the word.
Generally, a lot of people equate simplicity (such as a simple plot, gameplay mechanics and graphics) to the 'oldschool.'
One must understand, though, that the oldest games are often the simplest because they had few or no examples to follow. Games are as they are now through the creation, distribution and use of ideas. The value of games has long since shifted from the values of innovation to those of execution. After all, Spacewar! and Pong were only fun at the time because they were new - not because they were good games.
Basically, I don't really consider Hero's Realm, Dragon Fantasy and Paradise Blue oldschool in the technical sense. I know they are trying to achieve it aesthetically, and that is fine with me really, but oldschool games are oldschool because they are old - and really, has anyone played Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star or Megami Tensei lately? The RM* community's 'oldschool' RPGs really don't play anything like them, and that's not just because of the rm2k/3 battle system. It's because all the games I just mentioned are tremendously flawed - any gamer that's played an RPG within the last fifteen years or so years knows this. With that knowledge, the makers try to avoid the mistakes that make games like the original Dragon Quest just plain unenjoyable to most modern gamers.
Because really, no one wants to play Dragon Quest. They want to play a game that reminds them of Dragon Quest. Oldschool is an aesthetic and atmosphere some people choose to emulate. It doesn't make the games inherently oldschool in any sense of the word.
I believe that a game can be oldschool in philosophy if not in graphic design, like in your subtle attack on Deadly Sin. If a game wants to be about saving the world without intricate drama and political stories (or at least honest yet failing attempts at them), it's fairly 'oldschool' compared to 'WE WANT STORIES NOW' audience targetting.
I'm trying to corner the old school market. Actually, I'm trying to brand it as neo-retro RPGs.
Game playing is about learning and we are hardwired to find learning fun. However, there is that narrow window of challenge between trivial and overwhelming that we have to shoot for in our design. The biggest advantage of adopting the neo-retro philosphy is that that window is much easier to hit. The brain craves new experiences in a familiar format - it's like candy or junk food. "Old school" RPGs don't especially tax the brain in any serious way, but it does give it a lot of new content to digest. Successfully using already learned mechanics on new situations is highly satisfying.
On a more personal level, I am trying to recapture the awe and wonder of my first RPG experiences when I design games. As a 28 year old, that places that first experience in the 1989 to 1995 range, hence the type of games I tend to produce. Thus my games are going to be a lot like late-NES and early-SNES RPGs.
For a game to earn the "old school" moniker, I really think it ought to subscribe to the old school gameplay. While the graphical presentation of game contributes greatly to the immersion factor, it shouldn't be the only factor when considering whether the game should be old school, nor should it be the most important factor (I'd peg it at the second-most important factor). I think that the archaic game mechanics are key. If it plays like an old school game, then it ought to be an "old school" game. That's a pretty subjective judgement, though.
And while people mention Hero's Realm and Hellion, I think GENERICA takes the cake for an example of old school RPG from my library.
EDIT:
...and as a rebuttal to Karsuman's assertion that no one likes true "old school" games, I am currently playing through Dragon Quest IV on the DS, and have recently played through Dragon Quest III on an emulator.
Game playing is about learning and we are hardwired to find learning fun. However, there is that narrow window of challenge between trivial and overwhelming that we have to shoot for in our design. The biggest advantage of adopting the neo-retro philosphy is that that window is much easier to hit. The brain craves new experiences in a familiar format - it's like candy or junk food. "Old school" RPGs don't especially tax the brain in any serious way, but it does give it a lot of new content to digest. Successfully using already learned mechanics on new situations is highly satisfying.
On a more personal level, I am trying to recapture the awe and wonder of my first RPG experiences when I design games. As a 28 year old, that places that first experience in the 1989 to 1995 range, hence the type of games I tend to produce. Thus my games are going to be a lot like late-NES and early-SNES RPGs.
For a game to earn the "old school" moniker, I really think it ought to subscribe to the old school gameplay. While the graphical presentation of game contributes greatly to the immersion factor, it shouldn't be the only factor when considering whether the game should be old school, nor should it be the most important factor (I'd peg it at the second-most important factor). I think that the archaic game mechanics are key. If it plays like an old school game, then it ought to be an "old school" game. That's a pretty subjective judgement, though.
And while people mention Hero's Realm and Hellion, I think GENERICA takes the cake for an example of old school RPG from my library.
EDIT:
...and as a rebuttal to Karsuman's assertion that no one likes true "old school" games, I am currently playing through Dragon Quest IV on the DS, and have recently played through Dragon Quest III on an emulator.
Kentona, I never said people didn't enjoy them. If no one enjoyed the RPG progenitors uh...well, RPGs probably wouldn't be around today. Or at least not in the form that they currently are. Neither would you be making games that emulate the oldschool classics in rm2k3. Hell, I played and enjoyed Phantasy Star II, one of the most difficult console RPGs ever released. I am also aware that most people that did not play PSII when they were children will most likely hate it and consider it a gigantic mindfuck.
It's an issue of nostalgia. Like you yourself said, you enjoyed games in the 1989-1995 era. I enjoyed games during that time period too. But I have no delusions about (most) younger people being unwilling to play these old games.
Also, when I say, "they don't want to play Dragon Quest," I mean that in the most literal way possible. Who wants to play a game that is exactly like the original Dragon Quest, remade in rm2k3? No one. Like I said, the assumption is that good RM* developers can learn from the mistakes of those oldschool games they so adore.
It's an issue of nostalgia. Like you yourself said, you enjoyed games in the 1989-1995 era. I enjoyed games during that time period too. But I have no delusions about (most) younger people being unwilling to play these old games.
Also, when I say, "they don't want to play Dragon Quest," I mean that in the most literal way possible. Who wants to play a game that is exactly like the original Dragon Quest, remade in rm2k3? No one. Like I said, the assumption is that good RM* developers can learn from the mistakes of those oldschool games they so adore.
Darken
3952
I tried introducing my 10 year old cousin to FF4, he didn't even get out of the very first castle.
He doesn't like reading. ):
He doesn't like reading. ):
Nightblade
2723
I think that the archaic game mechanics are key. If it plays like an old school game, then it ought to be an "old school" game. That's a pretty subjective judgement, though.
The outdated game mechanics are the biggest problem with these games. There's a reason people stopped designing RPGs where you have no choice but to grind to advance (With the exception of ff8 :D). While it might be a fun throwback to people like you, who enjoyed the old school RPGs for everything that they had; I can nearly guarantee that the great majority of people don't like grinding mobs for 30 minutes just to survive the next area of the game.
Cave Story is probably one of the best example of an old school spirited game done correctly. It maintains the look, sound and feel of old NES games whilst doing many things to enhance it. IE: Not disregarding the lessons learned by designers. Lessons such as fluid control, approachability, and level design. I mean crap; you wouldn't make a game that controlled horribly just to invoke memories; would you?
(Hay Im going to mimic Strider *NES*'s horrible control system. NOSTALGIA)
The main point I would like to bring up is, what makes some RPGs oldschool or new? Obviously many of us have very SNES graphics/feel tied with some more advanced effects through the powers of RM. However, there are commericial RM games out there that sell themselves as oldschool RPGs even though they have RMXP RTP graphics, which is quite hilarious if you ask me. So what are your thoughts?
Out of all of the absurd things that go on here, you find that to be hilarious?
A lot of people would consider an SNES style RPG old school as well. Maybe not within this community, but for gamers as a whole; which is who that game is marketed towards; a feat more people should strive for, mind you.
Darken
3952
@Nightblade: I wouldn't call RMXP/VX to be SNES style, it has pratically no graphic limit (besides going for full 3D of course). It's just funny to me because I get the feeling that people usually selling XP/VX games call their game oldschool because the only RPG they played was FF7 some odd years ago. If it was a "real" gamer selling the RM game they would be tight assed about calling it retro. I guess it comes off that I'm getting a chance to bash Laxius Force or something, but the point is that "oldschool" can be an exaggerated marketing tool.
Well if you are indeed referring to my commercial game, deadly sin, that's fine.
I would assume you're including every single other commercial rpgmaker game as well.
But like I already said, you have a good point. The only thing old school about my game is the plot. Hell, the music was written with 2008 level technology - high end VST synths as opposed to bleeps and bloops.
I would assume you're including every single other commercial rpgmaker game as well.
But like I already said, you have a good point. The only thing old school about my game is the plot. Hell, the music was written with 2008 level technology - high end VST synths as opposed to bleeps and bloops.
Nightblade
2723
post=95049
@Nightblade: I wouldn't call RMXP/VX to be SNES style, it has pratically no graphic limit (besides going for full 3D of course). It's just funny to me because I get the feeling that people usually selling XP/VX games call their game oldschool because the only RPG they played was FF7 some odd years ago. If it was a "real" gamer selling the RM game they would be tight assed about calling it retro. I guess it comes off that I'm getting a chance to bash Laxius Force or something, but the point is that "oldschool" can be an exaggerated marketing tool.
So the crux of your assertion is that because of RMXP / VX's technical specs are higher, it can't be considered old school; no matter how it's actually made? "Old School" isn't just an aesthetic; though that is one of the more obvious factors. For your benefit, I'll supply an easy to grasp answer; as I am horrible at getting my point across
The FF2 remake on PSP had very high resolution, but in the end it's still a decidedly old school game.
Neophyte
155
Darken, if you showed an RMXP or RMVX game to somebody who doesn't use RM (let's say it's a game with a similar look to the commercial RM ones) and asked the question "Does this look like an oldschool game to you?", what do you think their response would be?
I would still consider them oldschool despite the upgrades in visuals. Many indie games use current gen technology (particle effects, lighting, etc) and are still considered throwbacks to older games. I think the same applies to the SNES style and XP/VX games.
Maybe they should just call them traditional.
I would still consider them oldschool despite the upgrades in visuals. Many indie games use current gen technology (particle effects, lighting, etc) and are still considered throwbacks to older games. I think the same applies to the SNES style and XP/VX games.
Maybe they should just call them traditional.
Darken
3952
post=95054
FF2 remake on PSP had very high resolution, but in the end it's still a decidedly old school game.
Because it's a remake of an oldschool game.
Darken, if you showed an RMXP or RMVX game to somebody who doesn't use RM (let's say it's a game with a similar look to the commercial RM ones) and asked the question "Does this look like an oldschool game to you?", what do you think their response would be?
I don't know. Seems like an easy experiment to try out, hope to see the results.
I would still consider them oldschool despite the upgrades in visuals. Many indie games use current gen technology (particle effects, lighting, etc) and are still considered throwbacks to older games. I think the same applies to the SNES style and XP/VX games.
Indie games are a strange case when it comes to deciding which are retro, new, or neo-retro, because so many of them are really really different in so many different genres. I need examples bro.
WolfCoder
3554
I like new-old-school or Neo Retro or whatever you decide to call it. It doesn't always mean you have to nerf your graphics either. The problem is that the modern market has a ton of games which are just boring. I've played some new fun games, but lots of them are boring. NOT!! Back then we had fun games, but most of them were definitely either just OK or complete crap. The only difference is how new games suck compared to how old games sucked.
Oldschool games could suck because of slow slow GUI, bad controls, no explanation for controls, unrecognizable graphics, and very poor balance and difficulty out of poor design rather than well-designed difficulty.
Now a new game that sucks could have any of the above. However, often I'll play a game with wonderful graphics. But "play" is a strong word. I meant watch 30 minutes of worthless plot when you just want to kill stuff (9 minutes of that SO4 game cutscene is torture and way too long, my friend started to play with a Yo-Yo while waiting for it to end). Often games try too hard to be movies instead of games. Finally, there's more cookie cutting going on with some of these games. Let's play generic FPS 6 or yet another final fantasy ripoff 4. It's not that these games are clones of better games- no that would actually be somewhat fun, they're usually poor executions of said better games.
There's just an illusion of games getting worse because you could still feel cuddly about an old game even if it's not very good (Tecmo's Secret of the Stars comes to my mind as I think it was the first RPG I've ever played) rather than new crap.
Once you've got your palette filled on games, it's going to be harder to find a game you'll enjoy rather than a newbie video gamer who would enjoy more games simply because it's their first time.
Oldschool games could suck because of slow slow GUI, bad controls, no explanation for controls, unrecognizable graphics, and very poor balance and difficulty out of poor design rather than well-designed difficulty.
Now a new game that sucks could have any of the above. However, often I'll play a game with wonderful graphics. But "play" is a strong word. I meant watch 30 minutes of worthless plot when you just want to kill stuff (9 minutes of that SO4 game cutscene is torture and way too long, my friend started to play with a Yo-Yo while waiting for it to end). Often games try too hard to be movies instead of games. Finally, there's more cookie cutting going on with some of these games. Let's play generic FPS 6 or yet another final fantasy ripoff 4. It's not that these games are clones of better games- no that would actually be somewhat fun, they're usually poor executions of said better games.
There's just an illusion of games getting worse because you could still feel cuddly about an old game even if it's not very good (Tecmo's Secret of the Stars comes to my mind as I think it was the first RPG I've ever played) rather than new crap.
Once you've got your palette filled on games, it's going to be harder to find a game you'll enjoy rather than a newbie video gamer who would enjoy more games simply because it's their first time.
Neophyte
155
Well yeah more of these games are now changing gameplay in new innovative ways and it isn't just about how they look anymore. I don't think that's the case with these RM games, though.
Okay let's take 2D sidescrolling games as an example. Not 2.5D ones, just pixel based sidescrolling games like Cave Story or La Mulana. Essentially just about all of these type of games are categorized as retro, old-school, whatever you want to call it. It doesn't help that these type of games were on a huge decline after the SNES era, maybe you could say that's why they are classified this way. Regardless, RPGs being made with these makers are kind of the same thing. And despite the fact that these newer RM engines have higher resolutions and less limitations, the fact that these games simply aren't made anymore commercially is the reason why developers classify them as old-school or retro.
Okay let's take 2D sidescrolling games as an example. Not 2.5D ones, just pixel based sidescrolling games like Cave Story or La Mulana. Essentially just about all of these type of games are categorized as retro, old-school, whatever you want to call it. It doesn't help that these type of games were on a huge decline after the SNES era, maybe you could say that's why they are classified this way. Regardless, RPGs being made with these makers are kind of the same thing. And despite the fact that these newer RM engines have higher resolutions and less limitations, the fact that these games simply aren't made anymore commercially is the reason why developers classify them as old-school or retro.
Estrella
0
Is this topic about video games in general or RPGmaker games? I think it is a little silly to compare what people are doing with RPGmaker as a whole to the entire market these daysand qualify as old school gaming when alot of RPGmaker games likely aren't decidedly old school in nature. We're not professionals and don't have access to the same resources developers in the industry do. I don't think every game made with the RTP is a concious decision to make an old school style game. If so, how would we compare them to games like Dragon Fantasy which intentionally try to make you feel like you're playing something from the NES?
However, reading this topic, most notably WolfCoder's reply, gave me another thought. As a player of RPGs, which gameplay mechanic do you find more frustrating: having to grind ala old school RPGs, or long winded cutscenes such as many RPGs these days have?
However, reading this topic, most notably WolfCoder's reply, gave me another thought. As a player of RPGs, which gameplay mechanic do you find more frustrating: having to grind ala old school RPGs, or long winded cutscenes such as many RPGs these days have?
beakmanthegreat
130
post=95075
Is this topic about video games in general or RPGmaker games? I think it is a little silly to compare what people are doing with RPGmaker as a whole to the entire market these daysand qualify as old school gaming when alot of RPGmaker games likely aren't decidedly old school in nature. We're not professionals and don't have access to the same resources developers in the industry do. I don't think every game made with the RTP is a concious decision to make an old school style game. If so, how would we compare them to games like Dragon Fantasy which intentionally try to make you feel like you're playing something from the NES?
What if we just think that the RTP sprites fit our game?
There's plenty of options there, even in VX.
Plus, using mostly RTP keeps the file size down.
(since I don't think you can clean out the unused RTP stuff in VX.
I aim to make a game that you could play on a windows 98 or PSP if you wanted to. (If thats even possible. Can you play RM games on a PSP?)
Estrella
0
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Actually, I am, I just don't see why it is a necessary reaction to what I said. People use the graphics they do in games either because they want to, feel it bests suits their game or it's the best they can do. I definitely wasn't trying to imply there was anything wrong with using RTP.
beakmanthegreat
130
post=95093
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Actually, I am, I just don't see why it is a necessary reaction to what I said. People use the graphics they do in games either because they want to, feel it bests suits their game or it's the best they can do. I definitely wasn't trying to imply there was anything wrong with using RTP.
They way I read it, it was "RTP seems to be used in old-school type games".
So my question was, "Is it okay to use RTP for a game that doesn't try to be old-school, or would people think that I was trying to do that (make it seem old-school), and stop playing?"
