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Shinan
4314
Shinan
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CloseYou can always be high and mighty when you're right. No point in catering to stupid people.
This thread was to encourage open and honest discussion about this topic. I don't appreciate anyone being told that they can't express their point of view.
Yoshio
774
post=98895
It's not what you're saying, Cop Killa. It's how you're saying it. Your posts come off sounding awfully high and mighty, and that's what you're being called on.
the thing is though, he's making excellent points
I think whether or not he is rude about it doesn't take away from his argument, and agitating about his "attotude" serves only to distract people away from the points he brings up
DFalcon
2141
To be entirely serious about your question:
This is a good point and I'm glad someone made it. Thank you.
The jump from "your opinion is flawed" to "you probably can't contribute anything to this discussion" is condescending, yes.
I have no idea where you're getting this particular shibboleth from (for example, I haven't observed that "profanity" is part of any euphemism treadmill) and don't appreciate being tarred as some unreasoning prude because of that.
(Somewhat relevant sidenote: I originally had "unreasoning obscenophobe", thinking this was a fun takeoff on an existing phrase, "unreasoning xenophobe". However, a Google search revealed only a handful of hits for "unreasoning xenophobe", all from the same sentence of the same book. Small reference pools indeed.)
----
I have a hard time putting together a coherent position here, other than "I like Penny Arcade". As we say so often for other reasons, it's all about the execution, but certainly I've seen newbie games fall into the "AAA++++++++ seller, would do business again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" pitfall.
1-brandon says "writers who swear aren't creative"
2-I mention Harold Pinter, who won the nobel prize for literature (the highest honour for any writer), who swears in his work; therefore, brandon doesn't know what he's talking about.
This is a good point and I'm glad someone made it. Thank you.
3-I tell brandon that if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he shouldn't post, because most of what he says is likely to be uninformed.
The jump from "your opinion is flawed" to "you probably can't contribute anything to this discussion" is condescending, yes.
(that you call it "profanity" is again, hilarious, and shows how brainwashed you are)
I have no idea where you're getting this particular shibboleth from (for example, I haven't observed that "profanity" is part of any euphemism treadmill) and don't appreciate being tarred as some unreasoning prude because of that.
(Somewhat relevant sidenote: I originally had "unreasoning obscenophobe", thinking this was a fun takeoff on an existing phrase, "unreasoning xenophobe". However, a Google search revealed only a handful of hits for "unreasoning xenophobe", all from the same sentence of the same book. Small reference pools indeed.)
----
I have a hard time putting together a coherent position here, other than "I like Penny Arcade". As we say so often for other reasons, it's all about the execution, but certainly I've seen newbie games fall into the "AAA++++++++ seller, would do business again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" pitfall.
Cop Killa
94
Calling it "profanity" implies a bias. It isn't objective to automatically classify those words as profane when they're intrinsically no different from any other word with the same meaning that society hasn't arbitrarily classified as a "swear word". There's no intrinsic difference between "shit" and "excrement", and I doubt you'd say excrement counts as profanity. And if you would, well, at least you're being consistent.
I'm pretty sure there's something similar to Godwin's law regarding people in forums quoting dictionary.com to prove a point, but I'll do it anyway:
The first four are obviously absurd; you can't classify any word as inherently "unholy" or anything like that. If you mean profane just as in vulgar, again I think that implies a bias.
I think that the people who generalize all people who swear as uncreative and inarticulate warrant this criticism far more than I do.
I'm pretty sure there's something similar to Godwin's law regarding people in forums quoting dictionary.com to prove a point, but I'll do it anyway:
1. characterized by irreverence or contempt for God or sacred principles or things; irreligious.
2. not devoted to holy or religious purposes; unconsecrated; secular (opposed to sacred ).
3. unholy; heathen; pagan: profane rites.
4. not initiated into religious rites or mysteries, as persons.
5. common or vulgar.
The first four are obviously absurd; you can't classify any word as inherently "unholy" or anything like that. If you mean profane just as in vulgar, again I think that implies a bias.
post=98895
It's not what you're saying, Cop Killa. It's how you're saying it. Your posts come off sounding awfully high and mighty, and that's what you're being called on.
I think that the people who generalize all people who swear as uncreative and inarticulate warrant this criticism far more than I do.
Yoshio
774
post=98935
I think that the people who generalize all people who swear as uncreative and inarticulate warrant this criticism far more than I do.
Glad I wasn't the only one offended by Brandon's comment, I tried to play it off with a bit of light hearted humor (which happily he reciprocated) but still...
Kef
0
post=98860
I guess its best if we don't touch Kef's posts with a 9 foot pole
I'm fighting the urge to tear into him as this topic would probably get very, very ugly if I did (and he's probably just trollin' anyway)
i'm actually being dead freakin' serious
S. F. LaValle
1069
Don't understand what the big issue is here. Calling Solitayre out for being biased? Of course he's biased. He stated an opinion and asked others to do the same. He never asked for anyone to make sweeping generalizations of literary laws and how they should be applied, he just wanted to know what kind of thought people put into the creative decision to include it. No big deal.
I might as well add I don't like swearing (or cussing, or cursing, or profanity, no difference to me) in amateur games either. Someone mentioned that if a person is "put off" by cursing in games, then that game it just not made for that person. Maybe yes, maybe no. I like 16-bit RPG's, and I like XBox shooters. I am not at all put off by swearing in Gears of War, but I am put off by swearing in amateur games (like people mentioned earlier, sd sprites shouting obscenities is just plain silly to me).
Perhaps an otherwise great game made less appealing to me because it has profanity. So that game "just isn't for me?" Now that argument is a stretch =)
You seem to be biased towards the use of cursing in literature, which is fine, so I'll just end by saying MY opinion: writing swear words is a creative decision and should be used appropriately.
I might as well add I don't like swearing (or cussing, or cursing, or profanity, no difference to me) in amateur games either. Someone mentioned that if a person is "put off" by cursing in games, then that game it just not made for that person. Maybe yes, maybe no. I like 16-bit RPG's, and I like XBox shooters. I am not at all put off by swearing in Gears of War, but I am put off by swearing in amateur games (like people mentioned earlier, sd sprites shouting obscenities is just plain silly to me).
Perhaps an otherwise great game made less appealing to me because it has profanity. So that game "just isn't for me?" Now that argument is a stretch =)
You seem to be biased towards the use of cursing in literature, which is fine, so I'll just end by saying MY opinion: writing swear words is a creative decision and should be used appropriately.
post=98966
but I am put off by swearing in amateur games (like people mentioned earlier, sd sprites shouting obscenities is just plain silly to me).
This is what gets me. While the visual presentation surely counts for something, why should the fact that they're sprites influenced how they speak or how the story is told? If my sprite based hero just got shot in the leg by his best friend who sold him out and slept with his girlfriend, it would be pretty silly to see nothing stronger than a 'gosh darn it' out of him.
Kef
0
you can't classify any word as inherently "unholy" or anything like that.
um, the Lord's name in vain would like to have a "word" with you.
Kef
0
i'm just calling an ignoramus out on his own flawed argument. if being able to do taht makes me a troll, then i'd better find a bridge!
Wow, CK's pulling out the dictionary! Fear semantics! Also, Yoshio, stop yes-manning CK. Come up with your own (coherent) arguments plz.
This thread has become pretty bad and I just can't take it seriously anymore. If it doesn't shape up, it is getting blammed.
This thread has become pretty bad and I just can't take it seriously anymore. If it doesn't shape up, it is getting blammed.
S. F. LaValle
1069
Mog: I understand what you're saying, and I can't say you're wrong for being frustrated with it. I'm just one guy with one opinion, but you've seen others in this thread share that opinion. People do the best they can with what they have. The more a game maker is able to establish the appropriate atmosphere, the more acceptable that sort of thing becomes. The events are one thing; sure any game with gun-toting backstabbers should be able to permit some cursing. Anything that can be done with the visuals can help, too (I would much more easily accept a game world in this setting if the sprites were not RTP-style SD, more naturally proportioned, and the maps were more modern and less colorful).
Even though I admit to being put off by cursing, I would encourage people to do what is appropriate or natural for them to tell their story.
Even though I admit to being put off by cursing, I would encourage people to do what is appropriate or natural for them to tell their story.
Yoshio
774
post=98972I basically tried to do that in the beginning of the thread but CK is making the argument much better than I could and it is aggravating to me that people are dismissing his arguments based on some ad-homenim problem with some "condescending" attitude on his part or whatever, or pathetic little attempts to pick at it like the issue with his quoting from dictionary.com even though he already pointed out the problem with him doing this in his own post. His arguments are making perfect sense and what you see as "yes-manning" is basically a plea on my part to actually consider what he is saying and offer up a valid counter argument instead of trying to avoid and dismiss it. Your posts make me wonder if you have any response to him at all quite honestly. maybe if you came up with your own arguments instead of complaining about the people not "coming up with thier own arguments" or not arguing in the manner or with the attitude you want them to you could get a yes-man of your own.
Also, Yoshio, stop yes-manning CK. Come up with your own (coherent) arguments plz.
post=98972
This thread has become pretty bad and I just can't take it seriously anymore. If it doesn't shape up, it is getting blammed.
Boy, do I agree with you on this. Alot of posts in this thread are clearly showing signs of members being very frusterated at other members and that always spells alot of trouble on the horizon. I personally am feeling like I'm losing my patience and I'm getting that feeling from several other people as well. Some people might accuse you of trying to run away from CK's arguments if you put an end to this thread, but I say take one for the team and do it anyway if this keeps on the way it is. Because this thing is really getting ridiculous
post=98973
Even though I admit to being put off by cursing, I would encourage people to do what is appropriate or natural for them to tell their story.
Now this is somthing we can all agree on. If more people who are uncomforatable with swearing in these games were arguing thier position the way Valle is, instead of posting like Brandon did, or Kef is still doing, then there'd be less frustration in this thread and we could actually have a productive discussion on the matter.
maladroithim
1495
Man . . . you guys are awful.
My point is that, if you load your writing with curses, you're loading your writing with the same four or five words that say exactly the same thing about your characters each time you use them. It's not always about realism - maybe sometimes it's about what is more interesting than real life? There's so much more a writer can do to tell me that his character is a rough type (or posing as one, like most people who swear all the time) or whatever.
Most examples I can think of where an enormous amount of swearing was a good idea are in comedy. I don't know; I guess there's always a place for something.
But I guess it's a better idea to take my comment as a blanket statement and get offended and go on a rant!
My point is that, if you load your writing with curses, you're loading your writing with the same four or five words that say exactly the same thing about your characters each time you use them. It's not always about realism - maybe sometimes it's about what is more interesting than real life? There's so much more a writer can do to tell me that his character is a rough type (or posing as one, like most people who swear all the time) or whatever.
Most examples I can think of where an enormous amount of swearing was a good idea are in comedy. I don't know; I guess there's always a place for something.
But I guess it's a better idea to take my comment as a blanket statement and get offended and go on a rant!
post=98935
I think that the people who generalize all people who swear as uncreative and inarticulate warrant this criticism far more than I do.
Regardless of other stuff in this thread, I agree with this.
Cop Killa, You have made good points, but dragging the arguement into the specific definitions of profanity is pointless and just derails the discussion. We are not here to discuss what profanity is, it's generally assumed we all understand that. We are here to discuss what encourages people to use such language, and to generally try to raise awareness of what I consider an unfortunate trend of pointless and overused vulgarity.
As for Brandonabley, he made a comment that a lot of people didn't agree with or found offensive, but he presented it in a thoughtful way and there's no need to ostracize him from the thread or dismiss his opinions. At least he's actually presenting his thoughts instead of just shouting down others.
I would have prefered this topic to terminate under its own momentum instead of being trolled into oblivion as a lot of people have made interesting points on both sides of the arguement. But, alas. So, in closing...
This scenario is awesome and someone needs to make it happen.
As for Brandonabley, he made a comment that a lot of people didn't agree with or found offensive, but he presented it in a thoughtful way and there's no need to ostracize him from the thread or dismiss his opinions. At least he's actually presenting his thoughts instead of just shouting down others.
I would have prefered this topic to terminate under its own momentum instead of being trolled into oblivion as a lot of people have made interesting points on both sides of the arguement. But, alas. So, in closing...
post=98967
This is what gets me. While the visual presentation surely counts for something, why should the fact that they're sprites influenced how they speak or how the story is told? If my sprite based hero just got shot in the leg by his best friend who sold him out and slept with his girlfriend, it would be pretty silly to see nothing stronger than a 'gosh darn it' out of him.
This scenario is awesome and someone needs to make it happen.
