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ALTERNATE ELEMENTAL INTERPRETATIONS
Posts
EnderX
562
EnderX
View playlists
CloseIn whiling away daze, er, days looking through the archives of this forum and others for interesting topics, I've seen several discussions about elements-that is, the 'Rock-Paper-Scissors' factor added to skills; the trick that creates Fira, Blizzara,.and Thundara out of a single skill called 'N-ara'. Always, though, whenever the question comes up of how to make more use of them, the answer always seems to be the same...'Make more of them', 'Oh, I use a dozen', etc. The most useful thing I've ever seen in that is the setting aside of weapon-types as elements...smashing, cutting, piercing, etc. The only other thing I've ever seen is the 'Logical Results' option - Fire causes burns, Ice freezes, Thunder paralyzes.
That can't be the limit of how elemental effects can be used, can it?
Imagine you're working on a game project, and you're permitted to use only six elements to modify your skills or equipment. You've got the ancient and honorable Empedoclean (Greek) set of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, and you've got the commonly added Lightning and Ice. What ways would you use them to enhance your project?
Please discuss.
That can't be the limit of how elemental effects can be used, can it?
Imagine you're working on a game project, and you're permitted to use only six elements to modify your skills or equipment. You've got the ancient and honorable Empedoclean (Greek) set of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, and you've got the commonly added Lightning and Ice. What ways would you use them to enhance your project?
Please discuss.
Let me just add that making up a whole bunch of really weird replacements for the elements just ends up confusing the hell out of me. It's cool when SaGa Frontier or something does it for the sake of gameplay complexity (like making hidden attributes like Slash, Blunt, Pierce, Status Effects, Force, etc) for the sake of things like armor variability, but too much and it just gets weird. People have been sticking to the Greek Classical elements thing for 2000+ years for a reason, you know.
I am pretty sure one is better off describing Saga Frontier's battle system as convoluted, not complex. =p
I'm not sure what you are asking here though. Elements are usually there to provoke strategy in combat. SMT/Persona use elements very well.
I'm not sure what you are asking here though. Elements are usually there to provoke strategy in combat. SMT/Persona use elements very well.
EnderX
562
@Solitayre:
You may choose either to assume that the elements have innate opposition to each other, or that individual species of monster or individual bits of equipment have their own elemental strengths and weaknesses.
@Karsuman: My question is, largely, in what ways the elements would be used to affect strategy.
You may choose either to assume that the elements have innate opposition to each other, or that individual species of monster or individual bits of equipment have their own elemental strengths and weaknesses.
@Karsuman: My question is, largely, in what ways the elements would be used to affect strategy.
Well the main purpose of elements is usually to gain some manner of advantage in combat by using an enemy's weakness against them. This is a concept too often lost in commercial games where basically different elements are basically just attacks with a different flashy graphic, and only very, very rarely influence combat. I would personally prefer it if elements were always an important element in combat.
For a RM game where use of elements is very important to survival, try ChaosProduction's Speak no Evil.
For a RM game where use of elements is very important to survival, try ChaosProduction's Speak no Evil.
post=99183
I am pretty sure one is better off describing Saga Frontier's battle system as convoluted, not complex. =p
I know what you're trying to say, but in light of recent advances in fans completely taking apart SaGa Frontier's battle system, it really IS ridiculously complex and in some places very well thought out to cover the other places where its not so much. Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song's battle system is so complex it's absolutely mindboggling sometimes.
Speaking of which, elements can be applied in a different way as well, in RS (the PS2 one), different schools of magic are sometimes treated like elements, with armor protecting against Pyrology or enemies weak against Cosmology. Of course, within the game the traditional elements are still there.
LDanarkos
430
Fire can continue burn and inflict turn-based damage like poison does (i.e. the enemy catches on fire). Yes, ice can freeze. I suppose cold attacks could also give the enemy the shivers. Yep, lightning or electricity can stun the foe. Water can drown the enemy, causing random instant death. Rain / water can also be used to extinguish characters who have caught fire. An earth-based attack could be vines that come to life and join your party for the duration of the fight as an extra character; or similarly an animated sand golem fighting alongside the party. Wind sucks.
This sounds too much like "attack type is and should be very strategic." I mean, if the enemy is made out of fire, and you have a water attack, it doesn't take General Schwarzkopf to strategically figure out what to do here. I think the only thing that can be strategic about attack type is when the "wall change" skill is used; it trades a turn to nullify the enemy's knowledge of your weak point, presents the question "do you risk using the wrong elemental which could heal the enemy?", makes you choose between attacking or scanning for new weak point or hazarding a random elemental attack.
post=99186
Well the main purpose of elements is usually ot gian some manner of advantage in combat by using an enemy's weakness against them. This is a concept too often lost in commercial games where basically different elements are basically just attacks with a different flashy graphic, and only very, very rarely influence combat. I would personally prefer it if elements were always an important element in combat.
For a RM game where use of elements is very important to survival, try ChaosProduction's Speak no Evil.
This sounds too much like "attack type is and should be very strategic." I mean, if the enemy is made out of fire, and you have a water attack, it doesn't take General Schwarzkopf to strategically figure out what to do here. I think the only thing that can be strategic about attack type is when the "wall change" skill is used; it trades a turn to nullify the enemy's knowledge of your weak point, presents the question "do you risk using the wrong elemental which could heal the enemy?", makes you choose between attacking or scanning for new weak point or hazarding a random elemental attack.
If you use VX, you can use scripts that let weakness/resistances to elements affect the chance of status effects hitting in a fire attack
so like you could have a fire spell that deals no damage but inflicts atk+ and berserk; an ice enemy weak to fire would be more likely to have the effects applied.
so like you could have a fire spell that deals no damage but inflicts atk+ and berserk; an ice enemy weak to fire would be more likely to have the effects applied.
DFalcon
2141
post=99233
This sounds too much like "attack type is and should be very strategic." I mean, if the enemy is made out of fire, and you have a water attack, it doesn't take General Schwarzkopf to strategically figure out what to do here. I think the only thing that can be strategic about attack type is when the "wall change" skill is used; it trades a turn to nullify the enemy's knowledge of your weak point, presents the question "do you risk using the wrong elemental which could heal the enemy?", makes you choose between attacking or scanning for new weak point or hazarding a random elemental attack.
I definitely agree that remembering to use Ice on the red-palette rat and Fire on the blue-palette rat does not constitute strategy. There are possibilities, though:
-Individualizing the other effects of elemental skills and restricting each character to an attacking element or two will get you some ways. This works best if either people without an elemental attack advantage aren't next to useless, or you can swap your party around easily to never be stuck at a disadvantage; it just forces the player to approach situations with party members taking up different roles.
-Multiple-target attacks vs. mixed enemy parties. Though this is more fun when there are possibilities beyond "everyone is a target", like in a tactics game or even Chrono Trigger.
-Meta-effects, e.g. Chrono Cross's field effect.
-An elemental weakness need not be strictly negative. Maybe hitting something for more damage with a fire attack will also increase its attack power for a while.
(no doubt non-exhaustive)
EnderX
562
Thank you for the discussion; it's been interesting seeing what everyone has to say.
For my own part, my thoughts on the idea were to wonder whether or not elemental strengths/weaknesses could be freed from physical endurance - that is, whether or not a setup could be made that had effects other than the damage multiplier everyone associates with 'elemental'. I think DFalcon came close to what I'm thinking of with his last mentioned item.
Consider the following two options: One a piece of equipment, the other a skill.
Equipment: Firebalm.
Type: Shield
Elemental nature: Strength
Elemental type: As the name implies, fire.
Special effects: When the bearer of Firebalm is hit with a fire-elemental attack, s/he will take damage as normal, then be placed in a multi-turn regenerative status called 'Healing Warmth' - 5%MaxHP per turn, lasts 5 turns. If hit again before the counter runs out, counter is renewed.
Skill: Frozen Fume
Type: Single-enemy attack.
Elemental nature: Weakness
Elemental type: Ice
Special effects: After being hit with Frozen Fume, any ice-elemental attack that hits that enemy will also have a chance of triggering various negative status effects. Or, in other words, it creates an elemental weakness that turns anything ice-elemental, like the lowly Blizzard, into the functional equivalent of a Malboro's 'Bad Breath' ability.
Has anyone ever played around with that kind of idea before?
For my own part, my thoughts on the idea were to wonder whether or not elemental strengths/weaknesses could be freed from physical endurance - that is, whether or not a setup could be made that had effects other than the damage multiplier everyone associates with 'elemental'. I think DFalcon came close to what I'm thinking of with his last mentioned item.
Consider the following two options: One a piece of equipment, the other a skill.
Equipment: Firebalm.
Type: Shield
Elemental nature: Strength
Elemental type: As the name implies, fire.
Special effects: When the bearer of Firebalm is hit with a fire-elemental attack, s/he will take damage as normal, then be placed in a multi-turn regenerative status called 'Healing Warmth' - 5%MaxHP per turn, lasts 5 turns. If hit again before the counter runs out, counter is renewed.
Skill: Frozen Fume
Type: Single-enemy attack.
Elemental nature: Weakness
Elemental type: Ice
Special effects: After being hit with Frozen Fume, any ice-elemental attack that hits that enemy will also have a chance of triggering various negative status effects. Or, in other words, it creates an elemental weakness that turns anything ice-elemental, like the lowly Blizzard, into the functional equivalent of a Malboro's 'Bad Breath' ability.
Has anyone ever played around with that kind of idea before?
Darken
3952
Ragnarok Online had a huge elemental/race dependency. Sages would be able to cast an AOE spell that makes a pretty 12by12 (or 20by20 I dont remember the specifics) if you stood on it, any elemental spell or attack you did that was linked to that element (fire attack on a fire floor) would have enhanced damage. HOWEVER If you had fire armor (which by default just resists fire damage) the fire floor would give you extra bonuses like say extra agi or more extra damage.
Elemental armors or card slotted armors would basically change your element to something specific, of course the drawback was that you were weak against another. I don't think I've seen anyone do that before (I think it's possible in xp/vx only, rm2k3 you can only add resist).
Elemental armors or card slotted armors would basically change your element to something specific, of course the drawback was that you were weak against another. I don't think I've seen anyone do that before (I think it's possible in xp/vx only, rm2k3 you can only add resist).
ferris95
50
In my game I have the four basic elements, fire, earth, water and air. Hit a foe who has E on it and they get healed.
I just want to keep it simple, it's up to the player to figure out what works well against what enemy, I'm trying to make it not too obvious.
I just want to keep it simple, it's up to the player to figure out what works well against what enemy, I'm trying to make it not too obvious.
WolfCoder
3554
There's also the Chinese equivalent of ????????? (Water, Earth, Wood, Metal, and Fire) and it's Water beats Fire, Fire beats Metal, Metal beats Wood, Wood beats Earth, and Earth beats Water again.
S. F. LaValle
1069
post=99756
There's also the Chinese equivalent of ????????? (Water, Earth, Wood, Metal, and Fire) and it's Water beats Fire, Fire beats Metal, Metal beats Wood, Wood beats Earth, and Earth beats Water again.
Has anyone incorporated feng shui into an RM game? The only commercial game I can think of that does is Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdoms (city-building sim).
Relyt
1242
I dunno. Fire, Thunder, and Ice are enough elements for me.
Fire Thunder Water Ice is nice too.
Fire -> Ice Enemy
Ice -> Fire Enemy
Thunder -> Water Enemy
Water -> Thunder Enemy
Fire X Fire Enemy
Ice X Ice Enemy
Thunder X Thunder Enemy
Water X Water Enemy
-> = does lotsa damage
X = does little to no damage
Fire Thunder Water Ice is nice too.
Fire -> Ice Enemy
Ice -> Fire Enemy
Thunder -> Water Enemy
Water -> Thunder Enemy
Fire X Fire Enemy
Ice X Ice Enemy
Thunder X Thunder Enemy
Water X Water Enemy
-> = does lotsa damage
X = does little to no damage
LDanarkos
430
post=99756
There's also the Chinese equivalent of ????????? (Water, Earth, Wood, Metal, and Fire) and it's Water beats Fire, Fire beats Metal, Metal beats Wood, Wood beats Earth, and Earth beats Water again.
Holy crap, the Chinese are idiots. No offense.
