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WHO ARE YOU MEAN TO?
Posts
Craze
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CloseSo, Karsuman and I have been discussing our current project for a few weeks now and we're finally nailing down the characters and whatnot. During these talks I have been constantly quipping about how much of a jerk Karsuman is to healers.
In Harbinger, Karsuman was going to slowly have the healergirl realize that her entire life was a lie and that her God didn't exist at all. In Visions & Voices, Lyla was raped and then locked in a church basement from her young childhood until you recruit her. In Arian Wild, the semi-healergirl is going to have her expectations dashed and the full healergirl is going to be forced into coming to terms with some horrible things. At least it's better than her first character design, where Karsu had her be schizophrenic (Phylomortis 2, anybody?)*.
If you've made or at least designed more than one game, are there any themes in who you're the biggest jerk to? Is it the hero, the villain, the healer, the wise old man? Are you generally benevolent instead?
*I believe that Phylo2 had a bipolar character and a girl with multiple personality disorder, but I don't really remember.
In Harbinger, Karsuman was going to slowly have the healergirl realize that her entire life was a lie and that her God didn't exist at all. In Visions & Voices, Lyla was raped and then locked in a church basement from her young childhood until you recruit her. In Arian Wild, the semi-healergirl is going to have her expectations dashed and the full healergirl is going to be forced into coming to terms with some horrible things. At least it's better than her first character design, where Karsu had her be schizophrenic (Phylomortis 2, anybody?)*.
If you've made or at least designed more than one game, are there any themes in who you're the biggest jerk to? Is it the hero, the villain, the healer, the wise old man? Are you generally benevolent instead?
*I believe that Phylo2 had a bipolar character and a girl with multiple personality disorder, but I don't really remember.
I'm always a jerk to my main hero. I usually feel it helps the player indenitfy with and empathize more if the hero is always downtrodden but keeps on going anyway.
Actually, I lied. I'm pretty mean to all my characters. Also, I am a cold, unfeeling monster.
Actually, I lied. I'm pretty mean to all my characters. Also, I am a cold, unfeeling monster.
The player is my chewtoy. Ask anyone who's ever played SnE and got hit by Hundredvolt, or ran into a mixed pack of snakes and knights.
meh_ch
145
I've never had the chance to be mean to a character, but if I could it'd definitely be the love interest. Most of the time they're just asking for it.
Shinan
4314
I'm generally belevolent. Of course I also live by the rule that "Good is dumb" which have been present in some stories of mine. Usually any character that is "The Hero with a capital H" does get a lot of shit, so I guess I have something against heroes. (Though being mean to those isn't exactly a novel idea. But it's still one of those that I like. You know... The Dungeon Keeper effect. "Those pesky heroes, always in the way trying to save the world.")
Kaempfer
1932
I'd say I'm generally benevolent, as well. Most of my characters don't have terrible, depressing pasts, nor do they have to come to grips with THE HORRIBLE TRUTH. I like my games to maintain an upbeat feel, for the most part, so I stay away from rape and horrible-torture-murder-in-front-of-children. As a result, none of my character tropes end up being abused too badly. That's not to say that there aren't important things happening to my characters, but I veer away from very heavy concepts since I don't want to put in the exposition necessary to make those seem not tacked on.
I mean, the healer in my game usually has their home destroyed so they have a kick in the ass to actually go out and venture, but it's about as benign as home-destroying can be. The only character I am sometimes mean to is the tank, since I like to use off-beat ideas for tanks so I give them really fleshed out (usually quite mean) backgrounds to validate the idea.
I mean, the healer in my game usually has their home destroyed so they have a kick in the ass to actually go out and venture, but it's about as benign as home-destroying can be. The only character I am sometimes mean to is the tank, since I like to use off-beat ideas for tanks so I give them really fleshed out (usually quite mean) backgrounds to validate the idea.
I can't really say I'm 'mean' to anyone. Most of my characters have more 'dramatic' pasts than horribly depressing or disturbingly tragic ones. A main character who was abandoned by his father at a young age. Someone trying to live up to a siblings image. A parents death due to illness. Stuff that anyone could identify with, even if the setting isn't realistic.
WolfCoder
3554
I've made tons of random demos, but I've never actually written a story that's mean to anyone. I do at least try to think of how to get the player to identify with at least one of the characters in any game I make so that they can act as though they were them.
I like more well-rounded stories. I'm utterly sick of all these "OMG my game is dark!" titles from both companies and hobbyists. Nothing hurts the soul like an overabundance downer characters. There's other colors in the world besides mostly gray and brown. I need a strong range of tones, and to get worked up in a fury to defeat enemies. Typically, action RPGs do the trick.
Now, my games might not even really have that much of a story anyway. However! I can tell you that I will not have mercy on the player. Sure, at first the game will be pretty easy so that they will learn how to play. It will be a gradual increase with a sharp curve at the end. I want to lure them so that they get addicted to the first part of the game so that they will actually try to beat the merciless end of the game.
It might actually be bad game design to do this, but I just feel as though my game should be much more than hard to beat. You can give up with your save file right before the final battle or you can feel the ecstasy of beating something really hard.
If you skipped the whole post to read this line: Just like Chaos Productions except the beginning will be easy.
I like more well-rounded stories. I'm utterly sick of all these "OMG my game is dark!" titles from both companies and hobbyists. Nothing hurts the soul like an overabundance downer characters. There's other colors in the world besides mostly gray and brown. I need a strong range of tones, and to get worked up in a fury to defeat enemies. Typically, action RPGs do the trick.
Now, my games might not even really have that much of a story anyway. However! I can tell you that I will not have mercy on the player. Sure, at first the game will be pretty easy so that they will learn how to play. It will be a gradual increase with a sharp curve at the end. I want to lure them so that they get addicted to the first part of the game so that they will actually try to beat the merciless end of the game.
It might actually be bad game design to do this, but I just feel as though my game should be much more than hard to beat. You can give up with your save file right before the final battle or you can feel the ecstasy of beating something really hard.
If you skipped the whole post to read this line: Just like Chaos Productions except the beginning will be easy.
Kaempfer
1932
You guys are kind of missing the point here, a little. We're discussing which roles you find yourself being mean to as you make games. In Karsuman's case, wherever the healer is (regardless of which character it is), they are tortured by the story. Not necessarily which characters, but which roles you inexplicably find yourself trodding upon. I think Karsuman might have something against healers, for instance...
But yeah, it doesn't matter if the character is a pithy wiseacre or a thoughtful white mage, where there is a healer, there's pain (for Karsuman, anyways). It's fun to discover the tropes we find ourselves relating to or relating... against?
CRAZE IS PSYCHOANALYZING US AGAIN
But yeah, it doesn't matter if the character is a pithy wiseacre or a thoughtful white mage, where there is a healer, there's pain (for Karsuman, anyways). It's fun to discover the tropes we find ourselves relating to or relating... against?
CRAZE IS PSYCHOANALYZING US AGAIN
WolfCoder
3554
post=102111
You guys are kind of missing the point here, a little...
... but they're totally being insightful. It's kind of hard to focus on character roles you're hard on when you focus on being mean to the player.
I wouldn't say I'm mean, but I do tend to put some characters through tough situations - usually choices they have to make or what they need to go through before they get the good ending.
Like, for Love's Requiem (BIG SPOILER ALERT - but I probably won't ever finish it, so meh) the female lead has to hide that she's a woman because the society she finds herself in don't allow female soldiers. The society she's from does, though, but because of her own strict moral code she chooses to hide her gender and stay in the other society. Add in the fact that she's in love with her male cohort (who believes she's also a male) and helping him in his quest to find a bride... and she's got some hard choices to make.
Also, Narissa from RealmS has a lot of hard decisions to make. No spoilers here though.
I'm also quite mean to children characters. I can think of two games - one where one child becomes a slave and accidentally kills his owner (not a good thing!) and another where three kids are the only children left in the world and have to deal with a crazy nun trying to kidnap them, as well as a mysterious evil guy who turns out to be the best friend of their murdered parents.
Yeah, nothing too cruel, but a couple of challenges in order to make the resolution a bit sweeter.
Like, for Love's Requiem (BIG SPOILER ALERT - but I probably won't ever finish it, so meh) the female lead has to hide that she's a woman because the society she finds herself in don't allow female soldiers. The society she's from does, though, but because of her own strict moral code she chooses to hide her gender and stay in the other society. Add in the fact that she's in love with her male cohort (who believes she's also a male) and helping him in his quest to find a bride... and she's got some hard choices to make.
Also, Narissa from RealmS has a lot of hard decisions to make. No spoilers here though.
I'm also quite mean to children characters. I can think of two games - one where one child becomes a slave and accidentally kills his owner (not a good thing!) and another where three kids are the only children left in the world and have to deal with a crazy nun trying to kidnap them, as well as a mysterious evil guy who turns out to be the best friend of their murdered parents.
Yeah, nothing too cruel, but a couple of challenges in order to make the resolution a bit sweeter.
S. F. LaValle
1069
post=102130post=102111... but they're totally being insightful. It's kind of hard to focus on character roles you're hard on when you focus on being mean to the player.
You guys are kind of missing the point here, a little...
This really has nothing to do with being mean to the players, and being mean to the players in no way correlates with being mean to characters (gameplay vs story, apples and oranges).
At the same time, this isn't as specific as character roles, either. Like Craze said, it could be heroes, villains, healers, npc's, whatever.
I find it interesting that Karsu punishes healers in that way. Could be a few things going on there; either he chooses the most innocent character type to be the meanest too because it amplifies the dramatic effect, or it could be his own personal religious viewpoints showing through (it's difficult for a writer to provide a convincing religion, particularly dogma, to appropriate characters when the writer themselves don't agree with it).
I don't know if Karsu's examples are subliminal or not, and I haven't created multiple games, but when I design, I never consciously say, "alright, I'm gonna be mean to so-and-so." If I did make multiple games and a motif does come up, it would certainly not be intentional.
I'm usually mean to religious fanatics. I don't usually play with religious themes in my games much because I don't really care to offend people, especially when I usually would rather focus on it being a fun silly adventure. When they're there, I'll make some fanatics that you need to get rid of because they're crazy. I usually make them some kind of anti-scientist people with all these weird rituals. It's actually fairly easy to pull inspiration from too, some fundamentalists say some really crazy things. "University is evil because it indoctrinates people to not believe in god" type of crazy or worse. If I have a church or something, I try not to make them evil though, they're usually in the background to provide an idea of what the life there is like, and I'll make the general religious people normal.
If not, I actually like being mean to the villains. It's nice seeing their hencemen fall, being surrounded, fall into a trap prepared by the heroes or being ambushed, and basically being screwed before their actual battle takes place. Even better when their plans constantly get ruined because the heroes are smarter. Either that or I make the villains really stupid. I always do something to the villains to screw them over.
But otherwise, I usually am pretty nice to my characters and they'll be just normal, no DARK HIDDEN PASTS or AMNESIA or whatever.
If not, I actually like being mean to the villains. It's nice seeing their hencemen fall, being surrounded, fall into a trap prepared by the heroes or being ambushed, and basically being screwed before their actual battle takes place. Even better when their plans constantly get ruined because the heroes are smarter. Either that or I make the villains really stupid. I always do something to the villains to screw them over.
But otherwise, I usually am pretty nice to my characters and they'll be just normal, no DARK HIDDEN PASTS or AMNESIA or whatever.
Ocean
But otherwise, I usually am pretty nice to my characters and they'll be just normal, no DARK HIDDEN PASTS or AMNESIA or whatever.
I think that this is a biggie. Some games, like The Witcher, pull this off well. Other games (see: anything made in XP) do not. However, when Karsu is mean to a character usually it is during the game itself and not through DARK HIDDEN PASTS. Viola in Harbinger, by interacting with the god of death for some time, realizes that everything she's learned about her God is false/man-made. Elesca and Nalah in Arian Wild (our current project) have emotions from the past, but they aren't one-two punched until the game's first few chapters.
One exception is Lyla in V&V, who was raped and stuff before the story. I feel that this is okay because it defines her entire personality - but not just how she is part of the time (see: average jRPGs). Everything Lyla says and does is influenced by her past, even the way she slowly confesses it all to Wanderer. Granted, the average jRPG takes place over many more days than V&V does, but whatever.
SFL: Maybe it's subliminal, maybe not. When I first started the three-week rush with Karsu for V&V, Lyla was immediately described as a "youth disillusioned with the world."
SFL
This really has nothing to do with being mean to the players, and being mean to the players in no way correlates with being mean to characters (gameplay vs story, apples and oranges).
Exactly. Stop posting about game design, folks; this is my one STORY topic so fucking talk about the STORY.
The protagonist of my favourite project idea's supposed to end up being the final boss and left tied to a tree in the middle of a deserted forest once defeated.
....yeah. I'm not really a fan of putting the hero in so much danger and then them able to avert it (feels too much like Harry Potter then) . None of my playable characters ever have dark pasts or the like but shit usually hits the fan for most of them in the late-middle stages.
....yeah. I'm not really a fan of putting the hero in so much danger and then them able to avert it (feels too much like Harry Potter then) . None of my playable characters ever have dark pasts or the like but shit usually hits the fan for most of them in the late-middle stages.
Kaempfer
1932
post=102174OceanI think that this is a biggie. Some games, like The Witcher, pull this off well.
But otherwise, I usually am pretty nice to my characters and they'll be just normal, no DARK HIDDEN PASTS or AMNESIA or whatever.
This... this is a joke, right? I have only played about an hour into the Witcher, but the introduction of the game (after watching all the cutscenes and listening to all the dialogue) makes NO FUCKING SENSE. It's one of the worst amnesia stories I've ever had unfold before my eyes. Maybe it is all tied up after the point that I couldn't take the meaningless fetch quests any more, but if you think this is a good example of an amnesia opening then... I... I don't know what to say.
They did such an awful job of detailing who you knew and what you were before you had amnesia that nothing made sense. Characters would act like they had never seen you before and then ask you to remember that time that you and they... were intimate... Ugh, just awful.
