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WHO ARE YOU MEAN TO?
Posts
Craze
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CloseDuckman, did you play the original? I started the enhanced edition which supposedly has a much better script. If we played the same version... we have different views. Horrors.
post=102146
I find it interesting that Karsu punishes healers in that way. Could be a few things going on there; either he chooses the most innocent character type to be the meanest too because it amplifies the dramatic effect, or it could be his own personal religious viewpoints showing through (it's difficult for a writer to provide a convincing religion, particularly dogma, to appropriate characters when the writer themselves don't agree with it).
I don't know if Karsu's examples are subliminal or not, and I haven't created multiple games, but when I design, I never consciously say, "alright, I'm gonna be mean to so-and-so." If I did make multiple games and a motif does come up, it would certainly not be intentional.
I am (try to be) fairly even-handed when it comes to religion, actually. It is worth noting that I don't necessarily link healers with religion, either (one of my most recent game's two major healers is actually ignorant of religion), and I don't equate elemental magic with morality or anything like that, either (necromancers can be good, etc.). Craze mentioned the Harbinger example, but he didn't mention that the religious characters in the game are treated in a relatively positive light - as generally good people, anyway, regardless of what they believe.
As for who I pick to be 'mean' to, it is probably not as simple as 'hey let's make the healer incredibly unstable'. I don't really over-analyze it myself - when I make a characters, I most focus on giving them great potential for interaction with the others. That is, a character's values, traits and personality are generally crafted in such a way as to make interesting dialogue with fellow party members and NPCs. After all, it is boring when all your party members agree with one another.
I guess the 'healer characters' have gotten the short end of the stick in my recent game ideas, but I can plainly say that it is not out of an extreme distaste for them.
Kaempfer
1932
post=102192
Duckman, did you play the original? I started the enhanced edition which supposedly has a much better script. If we played the same version... we have different views. Horrors.
I played the enhanced version. There was never any mention at any point that the Witcher knows anyone from the group of Witchers he lives with (until he is suddenly informed that he does). That isn't good writing. Maybe OVERALL the plot was presented well, but the dialogue itself felt like it had massive gaps in it. The voice acting was good, but there weren't enough words. You wake up and these two guys are rescuing you then one guy starts to train you again and then SUDDENLY AN ATTACK ON THE CASTLE. It is sort of heavy handedly implied that you were once a mighty Witcher about forty minutes into the game. That is too late, sorry! If it wasn't for the excellent visuals and voice acting, nobody would have liked Witcher.
In the idea I've got, (Probably impossible if I can't scrounge up sixty dollars for XP.) everyone gets "picked on". The main hero is usually the unnoticed, but always thrashed thing in games.Nope, not a goblin. And he also gets crap from the other people who do the same thing. It's meant in a comedic way though.
WolfCoder
3554
post=102146post=102130This really has nothing to do with being mean to the players, and being mean to the players in no way correlates with being mean to characters (gameplay vs story, apples and oranges).post=102111... but they're totally being insightful. It's kind of hard to focus on character roles you're hard on when you focus on being mean to the player.
You guys are kind of missing the point here, a little...
...
However, I said that because it has everything to do with being mean/nice to the players to me personally. This is because I always see these characters as things the player will play as. If the player does not play them (NPCs), I see it as characters meant to cause the player to react some way.
In my latest project, many of my characters are screwed over in one way or another. Heck, the whole point of it is that the main hero's out to get revenge over something that the main antagonist did to him, his girlfriend, and the entire kingdom he's in command of, which is now a bad memory he wishes to block out. Oh, and don't get me started on the main antagonist's back story...
post=102265
However, I said that because it has everything to do with being mean/nice to the players to me personally. This is because I always see these characters as things the player will play as. If the player does not play them (NPCs), I see it as characters meant to cause the player to react some way.
Stop this. I don't care about this discussion (and it's not pertinent to the topic anyway!).
If you've made or at least designed more than one game, are there any themes in who you're the biggest jerk to? Is it the hero, the villain, the healer, the wise old man? Are you generally benevolent instead?
I love being a jerk to the main protagonist, starting as some kind normal guy then hit him with so much stuff he's like, let's just get this over with ugghhh I don't care anymore sort of thing. (In D&D terms, Neutral Good - Chaotic Evil) and I love giving them bad endings...which is probably really bad.
WolfCoder
3554
post=102323post=102265Stop this. I don't care about this discussion (and it's not pertinent to the topic anyway!).
However, I said that because it has everything to do with being mean/nice to the players to me personally. This is because I always see these characters as things the player will play as. If the player does not play them (NPCs), I see it as characters meant to cause the player to react some way.
Then why are you responding to me at all?
WolfCoder
3554
You're the one who started getting snippy. Just because you view characters and players as separate things while I view them as one and the same was no need to start topic-bashing me. From my viewpoint, those who talked about how they treat the player was as on topic and insightful as anything to me.
How else do you expect someone like me to respond to that?
post=102323
...
Stop this. I don't care about this discussion....
How else do you expect someone like me to respond to that?
OP
If you've made or at least designed more than one game, are there any themes in who you're the biggest jerk to? Is it the hero, the villain, the healer, the wise old man? Are you generally benevolent instead?
Blah blah blah I'm a rebel. I don't care because it doesn't apply. This is getting out of hand and I really don't want to see a topic die on the second page. If you make another off-topic comment, I'm just going to have karsu lock this and send it to the dump.
Craze, there are ways to get points across without coming across as a jackass. It tends to work better too, online and off. I mean to be totally honest, the subject of this topic is pretty vague to begin with. Why do you think so many people were off in their responses? Cut some slack and defuse situations instead of acting like an ass and threatening to fetch Karsu to nuke the topic instead of civilly trying to steer it back on course.
To be on topic, now that I think about it, I can kind of be an asshole to actual assholes within the story. Antagonists with (purposefully) baseless, shallow goals tend to get the short end of the stick in my writing. I figure it's sort of like Xenogears, where the two bit, dickhole like Shakhan or Stien, or simply the dumb ones, like Vanderkaum, get it in the worst way.
To be on topic, now that I think about it, I can kind of be an asshole to actual assholes within the story. Antagonists with (purposefully) baseless, shallow goals tend to get the short end of the stick in my writing. I figure it's sort of like Xenogears, where the two bit, dickhole like Shakhan or Stien, or simply the dumb ones, like Vanderkaum, get it in the worst way.
Relyt
1242
post=102422
Craze, there are ways to get points across without coming across as a jackass. It tends to work better too, online and off. I mean to be totally honest, the subject of this topic is pretty vague to begin with. Why do you think so many people were off in their responses? Cut some slack and defuse situations instead of acting like an ass and threatening to fetch Karsu to nuke the topic instead of civilly trying to steer it back on course.
To be on topic, now that I think about it, I can kind of be an asshole to actual assholes within the story. Antagonists with (purposefully) baseless, shallow goals tend to get the short end of the stick in my writing. I figure it's sort of like Xenogears, where the two bit, dickhole like Shakhan or Stien, or simply the dumb ones, like Vanderkaum, get it in the worst way.
The more I frequent these forums, the more I like you Feld.
S. F. LaValle
1069
While I feel that topic creators should get to discuss the things they want, and reserve the right to try to usher things back on course, I also don't feel it's necessary to put a cork in someone who is offering insights to game making practices; be it on topic or not (Relyt, on the other hand...).
So, Craze, I leave the fate of this topic to you.
So, Craze, I leave the fate of this topic to you.
MrWaltz
387
post=102415OPBlah blah blah I'm a rebel. I don't care because it doesn't apply. This is getting out of hand and I really don't want to see a topic die on the second page. If you make another off-topic comment, I'm just going to have karsu lock this and send it to the dump.
If you've made or at least designed more than one game, are there any themes in who you're the biggest jerk to? Is it the hero, the villain, the healer, the wise old man? Are you generally benevolent instead?
lol, why do you care so much about your topics? if they're getting out of hand, just pay the thread no mind
I'm not mean to my own characters, I'm mean to the player. Taunting him with unreachable chests and unexpected circumstances and interesting puzzles, etc.
Erilex
3452
Paladins. Oh, poor, poor paladins. Not only do I make them jerks without any redeemable qualities, I also kill them in horrible ways over the course of the story... sometimes more than once.
Giving my characters horribly twisted, tragic backstories is the way I actually show my love for them. Paladins don't even get that.
...I once played a paladin in Diablo II. God, that was boring.
Giving my characters horribly twisted, tragic backstories is the way I actually show my love for them. Paladins don't even get that.
...I once played a paladin in Diablo II. God, that was boring.
