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'I LOVE RPGS BECAUSE I LOVE TO EXPLORE WORLDS' -- DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS?
Posts
WeaselEliot
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CloseI've read many threads inviting posters to explain why they like RPGs, and a common answer is 'because I like to explore worlds.'
While I do not intend to disrespect anyone's, I think it's a bit of claptrap. You have games like Shenmue, Tim Schafer's games or even Fallout which (Hell, Super Mario Galaxy is probably one of the best examples of this..maybe we can extend this to games in general) that actually whisk me away to other worlds, but in your average Final Fantasy the setting feels more like a backdrop than an actual world, and in my experience, the games that genuinely 'transport' me to another world are the exception, not the rule (When it does happen, I'm usually blown away).
So whenever I design an RPG, I think how I can make the world feel real. I like Earthbound's example of allowing the player to access a bakery, a fast food restaurant or a convenience store to get health items, instead of just having the one convenience store. So when I'm designing, I tend to think about these micro-elements, or little interactive features which help bring the world to life. When I'm in RPG Maker, I feel guilty just dragging a bit of grass here or plopping a tree here or table or bookcase there, or making a forest because 'that's just what you do.' If I *do* do that, it's only a placeholder.
And maybe it's to do with the setting, too? Most RPGs could take place in the same world if you merged them. I read stories by Borges or watch films by Pixar, in which truly unfamiliar worlds are presented, and I'd like to play a game that plops you in a setting where your first instinct isn't to 'find the cave', or you are constantly experiencing some aspect of culture or geography in which you can actually interact with/experience. I guess this is why I like game designers such as Tim Schafer (Grim Fandango, Psychonauts), Yoshiaki Koizumi (Super Mario Galaxy) and of course, Shigeru Miyamoto.
This is what I'd like to explore when designing games. This doesn't even necessarily apply to 'WIDE OPEN WHOLE WORLDS' games, but even small one hour games.What's fantastic is that the RPG Maker games allow us to make this kind of thing work -- I think The Mirror Lied does this to an extent, and maybe Yume Nikki...except the latter has originality but no interaction. Which makes it pretty boring.
While I do not intend to disrespect anyone's, I think it's a bit of claptrap. You have games like Shenmue, Tim Schafer's games or even Fallout which (Hell, Super Mario Galaxy is probably one of the best examples of this..maybe we can extend this to games in general) that actually whisk me away to other worlds, but in your average Final Fantasy the setting feels more like a backdrop than an actual world, and in my experience, the games that genuinely 'transport' me to another world are the exception, not the rule (When it does happen, I'm usually blown away).
So whenever I design an RPG, I think how I can make the world feel real. I like Earthbound's example of allowing the player to access a bakery, a fast food restaurant or a convenience store to get health items, instead of just having the one convenience store. So when I'm designing, I tend to think about these micro-elements, or little interactive features which help bring the world to life. When I'm in RPG Maker, I feel guilty just dragging a bit of grass here or plopping a tree here or table or bookcase there, or making a forest because 'that's just what you do.' If I *do* do that, it's only a placeholder.
And maybe it's to do with the setting, too? Most RPGs could take place in the same world if you merged them. I read stories by Borges or watch films by Pixar, in which truly unfamiliar worlds are presented, and I'd like to play a game that plops you in a setting where your first instinct isn't to 'find the cave', or you are constantly experiencing some aspect of culture or geography in which you can actually interact with/experience. I guess this is why I like game designers such as Tim Schafer (Grim Fandango, Psychonauts), Yoshiaki Koizumi (Super Mario Galaxy) and of course, Shigeru Miyamoto.
This is what I'd like to explore when designing games. This doesn't even necessarily apply to 'WIDE OPEN WHOLE WORLDS' games, but even small one hour games.What's fantastic is that the RPG Maker games allow us to make this kind of thing work -- I think The Mirror Lied does this to an extent, and maybe Yume Nikki...except the latter has originality but no interaction. Which makes it pretty boring.
This is really interesting. I think this type of setting application works best in certain types of games, like Adventure games, where everything you do is about affecting your setting. Myst and The Dig are great examples of games that are as much about the world around you as the characters themselves.
Myst is cool, yeah.
Persona 4 is very, very good at this. You live in a small Japanese town and really get to know your characters... because you adventure inside their minds (figuratively). The World Ends With You is fan-fucking-tastic - Shibuya is a blast to explore every day (shopppinnnggg).
What I/we tend to do for Crazegames/Krazumangames is have a single, distinct setting. V&V takes place in a village, our current game takes place (for most of the game) in a capital city, Diablocide takes place inside a tower that, well, is quite a unique setting. While not a 100% surefire way to make a perfect world (which I don't think that we have done yet), it makes it easier when creating a culture and that culture's reactions. Just a tip!
Persona 4 is very, very good at this. You live in a small Japanese town and really get to know your characters... because you adventure inside their minds (figuratively). The World Ends With You is fan-fucking-tastic - Shibuya is a blast to explore every day (shopppinnnggg).
What I/we tend to do for Crazegames/Krazumangames is have a single, distinct setting. V&V takes place in a village, our current game takes place (for most of the game) in a capital city, Diablocide takes place inside a tower that, well, is quite a unique setting. While not a 100% surefire way to make a perfect world (which I don't think that we have done yet), it makes it easier when creating a culture and that culture's reactions. Just a tip!
post=110063
This is really interesting. I think this type of setting application works best in certain types of games, like Adventure games, where everything you do is about affecting your setting. Myst and The Dig are great examples of games that are as much about the world around you as the characters themselves.
I gotta play Myst, although I listened to a 1UP Retronauts episode that bitched about the series.
I think placing more emphasis on setting would help some RPGs, which are usually about navigating a world/place emphasis on plot (Unless it's the dungeon crawler variety). Maybe as a more 'natural' kind of dungeon. This is all extremely vague though, and tonight I may get to starting a very small project that places emphasis on this.
That reminds me, I hear Chibi-Robo is also good with this. And I agree that both TWEWY and Persona do this well. It's funny -- I have a really short attention span with games, but I've spent a long time playing the ones above. Oh, and Bioshock from the half hour I've played...
maladroithim
1495
I think that an area to explore feels larger if there are confines placed around it. Sometimes this makes the game feel much more epic. Compare Fable or Dragon Age to Oblivion. Many Japanese RPGs excel at this also, because they tend to have large, empty world maps, but the places to visit are bustling and very detailed.
facesforce
442
But my main problem with these worlds is that none of them really take real life. People exist in these worlds to convince YOU that this is their life, but I have not seen any games where they become a real people them selves. That is to say, I would like rpgs more if they had a fully fuctioning world, where variables can reassign people with personality to cange jobs from a farmer to a knight and then to a fisherman at the end of his life. You know, a real virtal world where an story of the heroes can truly take life.
WolfCoder
3554
That's all fine and dandy but that would be a little hard on me programmin' fingers. Especially when you're still trying to give your enemy AI more intelligence then a can opener.
Blind
2262
post=110133
I think that an area to explore feels larger if there are confines placed around it. Sometimes this makes the game feel much more epic. Compare Fable or Dragon Age to Oblivion. Many Japanese RPGs excel at this also, because they tend to have large, empty world maps, but the places to visit are bustling and very detailed.
Yeah this basically. I believe it's largely the level of detail that defines the extent of immersion, not simply size or open-endedness. If you can convince your player that they're interacting with a world that extends far beyond simply what they see, you've pretty much succeeded in this effort.
If it's a MMO RPG, then hell no; too busy grinding to get better crap and etc.
Things like Elder Scrolls and Fallout, I like to stroll around and look at the scenery.
Things like Elder Scrolls and Fallout, I like to stroll around and look at the scenery.
WolfCoder
3554
I feel the opposite. I like exploring for the sake of exploring in MMOs- there's nothing like finding new maps to fight stuff on. In a game where there's no rails to follow I actually walk around to find other players or more places to loot and fight.
In games with rails I tend to race through those finely crafted maps to accomplish the points in whatever mission in the story I've been given.
In games with rails I tend to race through those finely crafted maps to accomplish the points in whatever mission in the story I've been given.
facesforce
442
post=116391I've done a great deal of programing myself and I don't even want to attempt the bloody task of making a system like that. Its just a distant dream of mine to play a game that takes life.
That's all fine and dandy but that would be a little hard on me programmin' fingers. Especially when you're still trying to give your enemy AI more intelligence then a can opener.
I find that open-ended RPG and MMOs to be boring because of the lack of goals and no clear end in sight. Give me rails. In fact, one of the funnest RPGs I've played of late was Dragon Quest Swords.
But, back to the discussion at hand: immersion is as much a facet of writing as it is of world design. It is a tricky act to present the player with a world's worth of information without overwhelming them. For us little people, its probably best to go ahead and create that finely crafted world but only present the parts of it relevant to the game the player is playing and keep the rest to yourself and use it to make the gameworld consistent.
But, back to the discussion at hand: immersion is as much a facet of writing as it is of world design. It is a tricky act to present the player with a world's worth of information without overwhelming them. For us little people, its probably best to go ahead and create that finely crafted world but only present the parts of it relevant to the game the player is playing and keep the rest to yourself and use it to make the gameworld consistent.
ZPE
1562
The best game I found for exploring was Shadow of the Colossus. No other game had that same depth of exploration and awe factor. Of course that was in the PS2 era so maybe Uncharted 2 has raised the bar but for me, SotC will remain the ideal game to build an exploration-based game on.
A lot of RPGs destroy exploration on the world map by throwing in obtrusive random battle encounters like DQ VIII.
A lot of RPGs destroy exploration on the world map by throwing in obtrusive random battle encounters like DQ VIII.
ferris95
50
Well I like exploring only in games made for that, like the Elder Scrolls series and Fallout3. When they reward me for exploring, I'm inclined to keep doing it. If walking around got me nowhere but a random battle, I wouldn't bother stepping outside the main regions.
Illustrious
520
I was extremely impressed by a game from our community because of its sense of immersion. This game would be the latest demo of Ascendence. I could tell so much work was put into this game, yet it doesnt seem to have as much downloads as I would think for a game of its callibre. I really think no other rpgmaker game did such a great job making me feel like I was within its world. I have seen games with a great story, or great graphics, or custom systems that have failed to be memorable because I ultimately felt detatched. Its rewarding when you find an rpg so full of life.
Ascendence - you wont find many games like this.
Ascendence - you wont find many games like this.
Considering the fact it is only a short demo, Ascendence has gotten plenty of attention, and certainly far more popularity than many quality finished games. It'll probably win a bunch of Misaos too, though I can't be sure of that given the new format. It would have in previous years.
It is also one of the most downloaded games on this site, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Either way, I don't really see the game being under-appreciated or realized.
Anyway, generally speaking this is something commercial games have an edge in due to the visual nature of it, but I've played a few RM* games that benefit from it. A few include: Money and Power, Love and War, Master of the Wind.
It is also one of the most downloaded games on this site, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Either way, I don't really see the game being under-appreciated or realized.
Anyway, generally speaking this is something commercial games have an edge in due to the visual nature of it, but I've played a few RM* games that benefit from it. A few include: Money and Power, Love and War, Master of the Wind.
Illustrious
520
Karsuman, you are right. I based my idea it got little attention on its RS6 link which showed like 330 downloads. (that was the one I played, didnt know about the other link) When I searched the game again I found the main link which had 2.5k downloads, thats a good showing.
