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CREATIVITY: THINKING ABOUT "EXPERIENCE/LEVELING SYSTEMS"
Posts
Mitsuhide_The_Vagrant
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CloseThere are plenty of different kinds of experience and leveling systems in RPGs: There is the non-complex, yet easy to learn systems where your goal is to do nothing more than gain experience points, and thereby increase the character's levels. There are hundreds of old-school RPGs I could name that use this system, so I don't think I really need to give an example.
There's the same approach, yet with a slightly more customizable feel to it. For Example, the Sphere Grid from Final Fantasy 10. You gained points after each battle (which you could kind of say were experience points, since they basically had the same function) to spend on moving around the Sphere Grid and, in a sense, "purchase" new spells or stat boosts.
Some games have made use of the traditional experience system, yet upon leveling up, you'd be given the chance to advance down a specific "tree" of skills and abilities. My immediate example of this I can give is World of Warcraft. All of your character's stats would increase, but you'd also be given something that was called a Talent Point to use in one or more skills trees (and these's trees would give you anything from another spell/skill, a passive ability, and so on).
These are just some examples as I'm sure there more types of systems in RPGs out there.
What I'd like to do is put our creative minds together so see what other types of experience/leveling systems we could come up with. Who knows, maybe we'll help somebody will get an idea from this...
So, have any of you ever thought up an original system, or maybe one that was a deviation from something preexisting? I'd like to here everyone's thoughts and ideas.
There's the same approach, yet with a slightly more customizable feel to it. For Example, the Sphere Grid from Final Fantasy 10. You gained points after each battle (which you could kind of say were experience points, since they basically had the same function) to spend on moving around the Sphere Grid and, in a sense, "purchase" new spells or stat boosts.
Some games have made use of the traditional experience system, yet upon leveling up, you'd be given the chance to advance down a specific "tree" of skills and abilities. My immediate example of this I can give is World of Warcraft. All of your character's stats would increase, but you'd also be given something that was called a Talent Point to use in one or more skills trees (and these's trees would give you anything from another spell/skill, a passive ability, and so on).
These are just some examples as I'm sure there more types of systems in RPGs out there.
What I'd like to do is put our creative minds together so see what other types of experience/leveling systems we could come up with. Who knows, maybe we'll help somebody will get an idea from this...
So, have any of you ever thought up an original system, or maybe one that was a deviation from something preexisting? I'd like to here everyone's thoughts and ideas.
Anyone for the FF8 magic to attribute linking??? naw jk...
In all seriousness however, I applaud this initiative. I don't know if it will work, has been done before, or etc.
But I think an idea of combining, the "Learn by using skill" type of leveling up, the "sphere grid" style, and finally, the Warcraft III style of leveling up your heroes, could work.
What would happen is whenever you finish a battle you gain points (like the sphere grid style) with those points, instead of spending them in specific places to gain stats or new abilities, instead apply them to different skills (Learn by using skill/Warcraft III style) only, however if you focused on that skill eventually you would earn the next tier. I'm not sure if that's fundamentally the same, or if I'm on to something here, but just something I thought up.
In all seriousness however, I applaud this initiative. I don't know if it will work, has been done before, or etc.
But I think an idea of combining, the "Learn by using skill" type of leveling up, the "sphere grid" style, and finally, the Warcraft III style of leveling up your heroes, could work.
What would happen is whenever you finish a battle you gain points (like the sphere grid style) with those points, instead of spending them in specific places to gain stats or new abilities, instead apply them to different skills (Learn by using skill/Warcraft III style) only, however if you focused on that skill eventually you would earn the next tier. I'm not sure if that's fundamentally the same, or if I'm on to something here, but just something I thought up.
Shinan
4314
Going for the tabletop approach there's also a couple from there that can be used as examples. The skill-based experience where you get points in a certain skill as you succesfully use it (usually limited to once/session in tabletop though easily exploited when used in a lot of crpgs). Those systems usually also have "general experience" they tend to give away after certain points in the game that the player can freely distribute amongst his skills (see Deus Ex or Vampire Bloodlines). Some games also use this general experience model in combination with leveling (Fallout).
Personally I'm a big fan of a level-less system. Though my personal game design things tend to go for very limited new learning in a game (because the scope isn't that gigantic) so there's perhaps only a couple of progressions in any given game.
There's also the powerup experience model. Picking up certain items will give the player more health or more magic or more of whatever stuff he might need.
Personally I'm a big fan of a level-less system. Though my personal game design things tend to go for very limited new learning in a game (because the scope isn't that gigantic) so there's perhaps only a couple of progressions in any given game.
There's also the powerup experience model. Picking up certain items will give the player more health or more magic or more of whatever stuff he might need.
This is conceptualized and then customized in nearly all of my even semi-recent games. And this is also something I deal with in my tabletop game and LARP design. Just to name a FEW examples:
Iron Gaia -- Carter and Xenos learn their skills by straight level progression (a regular skill every level or so, Rage Techniques every 10 levels) but Rover learns all his skills from items (program disks).
Iron Gaia: Virus -- You can't level up in the traditional way. In game currency, Nanites, are used to purchase skills, attribute boosts, and field abilities as well as items and equipment. The model here, to some degree, is System Shock 2. This system was evented and hence required a LOT more effort than the later models discussed here.
Mage Duel -- Somewhat a la D&D, every level endows you with a new class skill PICK, and every x levels endows you with a cross-class skill PICK. You choose your class and starting skills, and then you choose the skills you gain at each level. Again, evented. Leveling increases attributes normally.
Wanderer -- Main character almost CAN'T level up in the traditional way. Characters have innate skills but most skills are taught by using equipment a la FFIX. Scripts make it easy.
The Last Day (non-video-game) -- Uses a "sphere grid" a la FF10, but the sphere grid starts out 'blank'; initial picks are at random until experimentation, trial, and error reveal the character of the surrounding skills and let you make more educated choices.
Blood Machine -- Leveling up grants no direct attribute bonus. Basically, your attributes are determined by your parts. Better parts are heavier. Leveling up grants more Weight/Power ratio allowing you to equip better (heavier) parts increasing your attributes. Leverages the power of a KGC "Equipment Point" script to mimic/riff on the weight/power feature of the Front Mission games.
To Arms! -- In its current incarnation, uses a JP point-buy system very similar to Final Fantasy Tactics.
A few other RM games that did this really well are ABL (a draw system about 100x more fun than the one in Final Fantasy 8) and Three The Hard Way (LOTS of custom systems, but basically handled attribute gain at level-up in a very non-standard way).
Iron Gaia -- Carter and Xenos learn their skills by straight level progression (a regular skill every level or so, Rage Techniques every 10 levels) but Rover learns all his skills from items (program disks).
Iron Gaia: Virus -- You can't level up in the traditional way. In game currency, Nanites, are used to purchase skills, attribute boosts, and field abilities as well as items and equipment. The model here, to some degree, is System Shock 2. This system was evented and hence required a LOT more effort than the later models discussed here.
Mage Duel -- Somewhat a la D&D, every level endows you with a new class skill PICK, and every x levels endows you with a cross-class skill PICK. You choose your class and starting skills, and then you choose the skills you gain at each level. Again, evented. Leveling increases attributes normally.
Wanderer -- Main character almost CAN'T level up in the traditional way. Characters have innate skills but most skills are taught by using equipment a la FFIX. Scripts make it easy.
The Last Day (non-video-game) -- Uses a "sphere grid" a la FF10, but the sphere grid starts out 'blank'; initial picks are at random until experimentation, trial, and error reveal the character of the surrounding skills and let you make more educated choices.
Blood Machine -- Leveling up grants no direct attribute bonus. Basically, your attributes are determined by your parts. Better parts are heavier. Leveling up grants more Weight/Power ratio allowing you to equip better (heavier) parts increasing your attributes. Leverages the power of a KGC "Equipment Point" script to mimic/riff on the weight/power feature of the Front Mission games.
To Arms! -- In its current incarnation, uses a JP point-buy system very similar to Final Fantasy Tactics.
A few other RM games that did this really well are ABL (a draw system about 100x more fun than the one in Final Fantasy 8) and Three The Hard Way (LOTS of custom systems, but basically handled attribute gain at level-up in a very non-standard way).
You could give stat points or a whole level for completing different missions, or sidequests. And the harder the mission, the bigger the EXP.
post=132861
You could give stat points or a whole level for completing different missions, or sidequests. And the harder the mission, the bigger the EXP.
While that is simplistic, it's almost exactly the same way WoW does quests. The bigger the quest, the more experience you get. I'm trying to get people to think of something a little more complex.
Shinan
4314
post=132865post=132861While that is simplistic, it's almost exactly the same way WoW does quests. The bigger the quest, the more experience you get. I'm trying to get people to think of something a little more complex.
You could give stat points or a whole level for completing different missions, or sidequests. And the harder the mission, the bigger the EXP.
To be honest there's really no other fair way to give experience. (as long as you have a system of giving experience). If you overcome a challenge you should get experience. The harder the challenge the more reward you get. (occasionally the reward can come in awesome items or other stuff instead of course).
I mean it would be sort of dumb to give more experience for easier challenges. Or perhaps you could TAKE AWAY experience. I don't know. But if you work with experience points the only real way to give them is to give them away depending on how awesome the player is.
Final Fantasy II's stat levelling system, while a bitch, is probably a good example of thinking outside the box. Characters didn't have levels, they learned spells by buying them, and made them more powerful by using them. At the end of a fight, you had a chance to have any or all of your abilities go up, depending on the course of the fight. If you got hit a lot, your DEF might go up, if you almost died, your HP might go up. If you casted a lot of magic, your INT or Mp might go up.
Anyone who played the game before knows how easily exploitable the system was, but if you could work in a challenge rating type system to it, that maybe prevented stats from levelling no matter how badly you get the shit kicked out of you against those low level monsters, it would cut back on it somewhat. I am guilty of spending the first hour or so entering a fight, attacking my own guys until they're near dead, finishing the fight, and returning to an inn continuously, as I figure most people who played FF2 were as well.
Anyone who played the game before knows how easily exploitable the system was, but if you could work in a challenge rating type system to it, that maybe prevented stats from levelling no matter how badly you get the shit kicked out of you against those low level monsters, it would cut back on it somewhat. I am guilty of spending the first hour or so entering a fight, attacking my own guys until they're near dead, finishing the fight, and returning to an inn continuously, as I figure most people who played FF2 were as well.
Thinking outside the box with experience: a terrific way to confuse and frustrate the player!
I did a blog post on my current project's system: http://rpgmaker.net/games/1955/blog/2281/
Because I'm using a static amount of encounters in the game, I'm using 100% linear XP progression. 60 XP = a level. The average enemy drops 4 XP.
I did a blog post on my current project's system: http://rpgmaker.net/games/1955/blog/2281/
Because I'm using a static amount of encounters in the game, I'm using 100% linear XP progression. 60 XP = a level. The average enemy drops 4 XP.
Something I want to implement one day, but it's not as easy as it sounds, is progression exclusively by use.
Something like:
If you attack a lot, your attack increases;
If you defend a lot, your defense increases;
If you cast fire spells a lot, you learn more powerful fire spells;
If you lockpick a lock, you get better at lockpicking;
If you take damage a lot (without dying), your HP increases;
And things like that. I'd like to do it in a way that the player never directly choses stats boots or character progression... he'll just have to DO things.
I think that's interesting, because in a way the game would just recognize how you're using your characters, and make them better at that.
The difficulty in implementing such system is that you'd have to find a way to avoid inducing the player to dull repetitive tasks. Something similar to what happens in a MMORPGs.
Something like:
If you attack a lot, your attack increases;
If you defend a lot, your defense increases;
If you cast fire spells a lot, you learn more powerful fire spells;
If you lockpick a lock, you get better at lockpicking;
If you take damage a lot (without dying), your HP increases;
And things like that. I'd like to do it in a way that the player never directly choses stats boots or character progression... he'll just have to DO things.
I think that's interesting, because in a way the game would just recognize how you're using your characters, and make them better at that.
The difficulty in implementing such system is that you'd have to find a way to avoid inducing the player to dull repetitive tasks. Something similar to what happens in a MMORPGs.
I feel like most systems have already been done. Trying to come up with something brand new seems hard.
Maybe an age system? Like over-time you obtain more stats, or points.
Maybe an age system? Like over-time you obtain more stats, or points.
EnderX
562
Going with a variant of the 'talent tree' option.
Character has some number of 'slots' into which a 'tree' option can be fit - slots, once filled, are permanent. Each 'tree' has some set of skills, abilities, and/or stat boosts. It costs nothing (other than the slot) to add a new 'tree' to the list - purchasing entries within the tree costs exp. Yeah, the stuff that normally grants level-ups. I'm working on trying to toss the 'level' mechanism out on its ear; a character who does nothing with their earned exp will have the same stats, skills (if any) and abilities at the endgame as they did at the time they first appeared. The logic is that the 'exp' cost is a measure of time spent practicing/training, using what happened while earning the exp as a marker of what to practice in order to do better next time. Someone who doesn't bother to train, no matter how often they get into fights, won't get better.
Character has some number of 'slots' into which a 'tree' option can be fit - slots, once filled, are permanent. Each 'tree' has some set of skills, abilities, and/or stat boosts. It costs nothing (other than the slot) to add a new 'tree' to the list - purchasing entries within the tree costs exp. Yeah, the stuff that normally grants level-ups. I'm working on trying to toss the 'level' mechanism out on its ear; a character who does nothing with their earned exp will have the same stats, skills (if any) and abilities at the endgame as they did at the time they first appeared. The logic is that the 'exp' cost is a measure of time spent practicing/training, using what happened while earning the exp as a marker of what to practice in order to do better next time. Someone who doesn't bother to train, no matter how often they get into fights, won't get better.
I've got one that I'm thinking about for a PnP Game, which has a normal world and data world (Where most combat and action should take place). Basically character statistics in the Data world are carried over from the normal world, up to a maximum set by the Persona File's size.
These stats can be increased by training in the real world, e.g. going to the Gym to increase Strength and Vitality, or Studying to increase Intellect. After so many training sessions that statistic will increase by one.
Sooo basically the FF2 system... so much for originality...
These stats can be increased by training in the real world, e.g. going to the Gym to increase Strength and Vitality, or Studying to increase Intellect. After so many training sessions that statistic will increase by one.
Sooo basically the FF2 system... so much for originality...
Drakonais
2787
I find nothing more boring that a system where I gain a predetermined set of skills, each one at a certain level. If a game has an innovative manner of skill acquisition, that will always be a HUGE selling point for me.
Some ways to break up this monotony:
1.) Selectable class systems
2.) Non-traditional skill acquisition (like the aforementioned grid)
3.) Situational skill gain opportunities (like blue magic and/or skills based on terrain or monster type)
Just throwing out some ideas for discussion.
Some ways to break up this monotony:
1.) Selectable class systems
2.) Non-traditional skill acquisition (like the aforementioned grid)
3.) Situational skill gain opportunities (like blue magic and/or skills based on terrain or monster type)
Just throwing out some ideas for discussion.
post=132915
2.) Non-traditional skill acquisition (like the aforementioned grid)
3.) Situational skill gain opportunities (like blue magic and/or skills based on terrain or monster type)
Before I shut down creation of "Crimson Sky" I had stuff like this. Each character had a different way to obtain ablilities/magic.
One way was going to be, yes, by level. The magic-user was going to buy her magic. One character learned new skills through obtaining specific items. Another was having to fight a certain number of battles with a specific equipped weapon. etc...
Darken
3952
I'd like to play an RPG where everyone is basically a blue mage. Of course further design decisions like different characters get different skills from the same monster and having a limited number of skills leading to a very changing skillset as you progress along the game could make it more interesting
post=132935
I'd like to play an RPG where everyone is basically a blue mage. Of course further design decisions like different characters get different skills from the same monster and having a limited number of skills leading to a very changing skillset as you progress along the game could make it more interesting
Pokemon/SMT games are basically this, except you actually play as those skillsets.
DFalcon
2141
post=132896
I'd like to do it in a way that the player never directly choses stats boots or character progression... he'll just have to DO things.
I think that's interesting, because in a way the game would just recognize how you're using your characters, and make them better at that.
The difficulty in implementing such system is that you'd have to find a way to avoid inducing the player to dull repetitive tasks. Something similar to what happens in a MMORPGs.
The roguelike Dungeon Crawl has a decent way of handling this that avoids most of the FF2/Oblivion experience stupidity. Basically any time you get experience it goes into a pool. When you do something affected by a skill (e.g. Axes, Conjuration, Throwing, Traps & Doors) there's a chance that it will try to move XP from the pool, if there's any there, to that skill. If you're not interested in leveling particular skills you can turn their chance down a fair bit.
