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DUNGEON PUZZLES
Posts
Decky
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CloseI've been thinking about dungeon puzzles a lot lately. I like a decent amount of puzzles in RPG Maker games -- maybe not as many as the Zelda games, but certainly somewhere near the level of Xenosaga. How about you guys?
What kind of puzzles do you like to see in RPG Maker/indie games? What are some of your favorite indie puzzles?
What do you feel is an "ideal" number of puzzles per dungeon -- or, in more general terms, do you prefer a few/some/a lot?
As for me, I love everything from ice puzzles to water draining, invisible mazes, switch flipping, passwords...anything to add flavor to a dungeon. If it's just a long corridor or maze full of random battles, I get bored very quickly.
What kind of puzzles do you like to see in RPG Maker/indie games? What are some of your favorite indie puzzles?
What do you feel is an "ideal" number of puzzles per dungeon -- or, in more general terms, do you prefer a few/some/a lot?
As for me, I love everything from ice puzzles to water draining, invisible mazes, switch flipping, passwords...anything to add flavor to a dungeon. If it's just a long corridor or maze full of random battles, I get bored very quickly.
ferris95
50
I like having difficult puzzles in dungeons; Golden Sun did this really well. If you didn't play the game, what would happen is you would get a new power and you would wind up using it in really creative to solve the puzzles.
Not to mention most of the puzzles were harder than day-old gum.
Not to mention most of the puzzles were harder than day-old gum.
That's pretty neat. So if your character learns a fire spell, you can use it to melt an ice barrier?
ferris95
50
post=133913
That's pretty neat. So if your character learns a fire spell, you can use it to melt an ice barrier?
Yeah put it also incorporate just about every other spell you learned :P. The last dungeon was ridiculously hard for me.
Hmm...that gives me an idea. Say your character can learn an optional move called Sickleslash -- an attack-all sword move. Arrange a room with four switches in a tight square. Step in the center of it: "A sword strike could probably activate these switches at once. Use Sickleslash?"
nickad
261
God, my weakest aspect :(.
However, to answer your questions - I would say there isn't an exact number as to the appropriate number of puzzles. As much as it is a matter of personal preference as to the amount (or whether you put them in at all) of puzzles you implement, it all really depends on the style and purpose of your game. For instance, if your game is a puzzler or explorer, you would most definitely put some sort of puzzle in there.
I was also quite fond of the puzzles present in Balmung Cycle. If you haven't played it, I recommend you give it a go (http://rpgmaker.net/games/471/)!
However, to answer your questions - I would say there isn't an exact number as to the appropriate number of puzzles. As much as it is a matter of personal preference as to the amount (or whether you put them in at all) of puzzles you implement, it all really depends on the style and purpose of your game. For instance, if your game is a puzzler or explorer, you would most definitely put some sort of puzzle in there.
I was also quite fond of the puzzles present in Balmung Cycle. If you haven't played it, I recommend you give it a go (http://rpgmaker.net/games/471/)!
Speak of recommendations:
http://rpgmaker.net/games/27/
Best puzzle designs ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
One tip: puzzles and battles don't mesh well. No random encounters in a room with a switch puzzle, please.
http://rpgmaker.net/games/27/
Best puzzle designs ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
One tip: puzzles and battles don't mesh well. No random encounters in a room with a switch puzzle, please.
post=133940
Speak of recommendations:
http://rpgmaker.net/games/27/
Best puzzle designs ever. Simple, elegant, fun.
One tip: puzzles and battles don't mesh well. No random encounters in a room with a switch puzzle, please.
Agreed, unless it's a simple matter of one or two switches.
Puzzles are my favorite. Games like Lufia II and Alundra had it right. By adding difficult puzzles, a whole new aspect of challenge came into play. Now instead of just battling evil monsters and devising strategies to defeat them, the player had to wrack their brain over series of switches, moving blocks, mazes, traps, etc etc.
Oh, I almost forgot. In a community game I worked on for another site, I incorporated a dungeon with elemental shifts. For instance, turning a room from earth mode to ice mode may freeze the lakes and block paths with ice crystals. On the other hand, turning the room from earth to fire may convert the water into lava, while at the same time melting boulders and other obstacles.
It's kind of tough to explain.
It's kind of tough to explain.
Strange Journey had some fantastically sadistic dungeons. Un-mappable terrain plus warps plus movement floors plus one-way doors plus sleep tiles plus pitfalls? Yes.
Then again, everyone but me hated them.
Then again, everyone but me hated them.
Koff
1013
post=133933
Hmm...that gives me an idea. Say your character can learn an optional move called Sickleslash -- an attack-all sword move. Arrange a room with four switches in a tight square. Step in the center of it: "A sword strike could probably activate these switches at once. Use Sickleslash?"
the idea of using sickleslash to take out all four switches at once is fine, but the way you're presenting it is kind of silly. it's no fun for the player if you just ask him if that's what he wants to do. surely you see the problem with this?
and the player should be able to use sickleslash at his leisure, rather than being limited by prompts. in golden sun you use puzzle-solving spells straight out of the menu, whenever you damn well please, or assign them to the L and R buttons as shortcuts. sometimes the game will prompt you by automatically opening the menu (to suggest that you need to use a certain spell or item to continue) but this is fairly uncommon. also, if it's necessary for solving a vital puzzle, sickleslash probably shouldn't be an "optional move", either!
post=134014post=133933the idea of using sickleslash to take out all four switches at once is fine, but the way you're presenting it is kind of silly. it's no fun for the player if you just ask him if that's what he wants to do. surely you see the problem with this?
Hmm...that gives me an idea. Say your character can learn an optional move called Sickleslash -- an attack-all sword move. Arrange a room with four switches in a tight square. Step in the center of it: "A sword strike could probably activate these switches at once. Use Sickleslash?"
and the player should be able to use sickleslash at his leisure, rather than being limited by prompts. in golden sun you use puzzle-solving spells straight out of the menu, whenever you damn well please, or assign them to the L and R buttons as shortcuts. sometimes the game will prompt you by automatically opening the menu (to suggest that you need to use a certain spell or item to continue) but this is fairly uncommon. also, if it's necessary for solving a vital puzzle, sickleslash probably shouldn't be an "optional move", either!
Well, the puzzle wouldn't be vital. Probably something in an optional dungeon.
This is admittedly one of my weakpoints (it didn't USED to be, this is something I got WORSE at over time) so I'm interested to see how this topic develops.
Neophyte
155
After you play Alundra, all puzzles are easy. I dare any of you to play Alundra without a walkthrough. That being said, Alundra is a bad example of how to do puzzles. The game isn't accurate enough to execute it's Zelda like interactions, and its combat isn't accurate enough to be like an action game. =|
I have a problem with puzzles/interactions in RPGs. I could write a whole article about this, because I think I know what I am talking about for once. My point is, there is almost no RPG that can do them right. Block puzzles suck, ice sliding sucks, arrow ones suck, riddles suck. And they suck because developers half ass them. Not only that, but for some odd reason, there are almost never any puzzle/interactions outside of dungeons. Why is this?
Answer: Look above. Because they half ass them.
There are 2-3 game series I know off the top of my head that do these correctly. The Golden Sun series, the Wild ARMs series, and the Zelda series. No, not even Lufia 2 does this right. Even though the dungeons are filled with logic puzzles and all that (which it does very good), it doesn't take that extra step and implement them in places other than dungeons, even though it was perfectly capable of doing so. It's the first game of its kind, so I give it some slack. However in Golden Sun or Wild ARMs, every town has secrets that can be found through interacting with the tools at your disposal. These games realized that the interaction between your environments has to be constant, and not broken up into disjointed segments. To get all the Djinn in Golden Sun, you have to break holes in peoples roofs, dig holes to go underground in a town, and read peoples minds (among the dozens of other things you had to do). Likewise, in Wild ARMs AF there is a town that's flooded and you need a certain ability to raise/lower the water level (it was something like this, it's been awhile since I played it). Zelda does this too, I don't think I need to explain how. I absolutely love these games because of this.
I know you add interactions to break up the repetitive nature of dungeons, but to me they feel tacked on for the reasons I stated above. I know dungeons are the meat of a game, but it just blows my mind that not many people think about adding them to other environments. Either do it well, or don't do it at all!
At least that is how I feel. Also I don't like to use the word puzzle because it makes my brain puzzled and I associate the word with bad rpg puzzles. I prefer to call them interactions, because the games that do it right are about interactions and not making your brain hurt if that makes any sense.
I have a problem with puzzles/interactions in RPGs. I could write a whole article about this, because I think I know what I am talking about for once. My point is, there is almost no RPG that can do them right. Block puzzles suck, ice sliding sucks, arrow ones suck, riddles suck. And they suck because developers half ass them. Not only that, but for some odd reason, there are almost never any puzzle/interactions outside of dungeons. Why is this?
Answer: Look above. Because they half ass them.
There are 2-3 game series I know off the top of my head that do these correctly. The Golden Sun series, the Wild ARMs series, and the Zelda series. No, not even Lufia 2 does this right. Even though the dungeons are filled with logic puzzles and all that (which it does very good), it doesn't take that extra step and implement them in places other than dungeons, even though it was perfectly capable of doing so. It's the first game of its kind, so I give it some slack. However in Golden Sun or Wild ARMs, every town has secrets that can be found through interacting with the tools at your disposal. These games realized that the interaction between your environments has to be constant, and not broken up into disjointed segments. To get all the Djinn in Golden Sun, you have to break holes in peoples roofs, dig holes to go underground in a town, and read peoples minds (among the dozens of other things you had to do). Likewise, in Wild ARMs AF there is a town that's flooded and you need a certain ability to raise/lower the water level (it was something like this, it's been awhile since I played it). Zelda does this too, I don't think I need to explain how. I absolutely love these games because of this.
I know you add interactions to break up the repetitive nature of dungeons, but to me they feel tacked on for the reasons I stated above. I know dungeons are the meat of a game, but it just blows my mind that not many people think about adding them to other environments. Either do it well, or don't do it at all!
At least that is how I feel. Also I don't like to use the word puzzle because it makes my brain puzzled and I associate the word with bad rpg puzzles. I prefer to call them interactions, because the games that do it right are about interactions and not making your brain hurt if that makes any sense.
I luuuuuurve puzzles, of all kinds - block pushing, flicking switches, grappling hooks, all that stuff. They don't have to be super-hard but it adds so much to a game to have something to do besides battling. Although there's a tricky balance between "give the player something to do" and "waste the player's time to pad out the length". I reckon the biggest danger is the backtracking and repetition that comes with many kinds of puzzles, so maybe the best approach is little-and-often. I liked in Soul Reaver 2 how basically the whole dungeon was one big puzzle and you just did little bits of it as you went along, especially in the light tomb. Definitely a lot more interesting than just "oh, someone left a block right next to this switch for no good reason". That's a bit tricky for most game makers though!
EDIT: Great call, Neophyte! If you're going to do puzzles (especially manipulating-your-environment puzzles) they should be everywhere. I loved getting out of a dungeon in Zelda and running around robbing people's houses with the new tool I'd just got.
EDIT: Great call, Neophyte! If you're going to do puzzles (especially manipulating-your-environment puzzles) they should be everywhere. I loved getting out of a dungeon in Zelda and running around robbing people's houses with the new tool I'd just got.
