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SORRY, BUT I LOVE THE IDEA OF MAKING FANGAMES.
Posts
AznChipmunk
4613
AznChipmunk
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CloseI disagree with a bunch of the things said in this topic but I can't be bothered to write a long post right now!
I feel like plugging for my Touhou fangame here. Hopefully you guys can help me do right what other people who make fangames do horribly wrong. ;o
About fangaming x cloning:
I'd rather see a game that is conceptually original but deliberately clones the system of some other good game(s) than seeing a game that is a fangame but twists the systems of the original game.
For instance... I'd rather see a game called "Whoof" that clones Sonic but uses a green dog instead of a blue hedgehog than seeing a Sonic fangame with RM2K3 DBS.
I'd rather see a game that is conceptually original but deliberately clones the system of some other good game(s) than seeing a game that is a fangame but twists the systems of the original game.
For instance... I'd rather see a game called "Whoof" that clones Sonic but uses a green dog instead of a blue hedgehog than seeing a Sonic fangame with RM2K3 DBS.
sunshinesan
534
Making a fangame for me was a great way of catapulting me in making RPGs in general. It is definitely more difficult, at least in my experience, to try and establish a world yourself, than to work with a pre-existing one. I'm not saying that working with characters, worlds, etc. that already exist is cake walk, but relatively, its still easier.
Though one thing about fan games is that the criticism for failure is a lot harsher, and it makes a lot of sense. People grew up with the characters, stories, places that fangames make use of, and to screw that up, is like giving the finger to all those people.
Plus, if it is based on existing material, it is inevitably going to be compared to it, and it is very hard, maybe impossible for a fangame to surpass that of its original source.
Though one thing about fan games is that the criticism for failure is a lot harsher, and it makes a lot of sense. People grew up with the characters, stories, places that fangames make use of, and to screw that up, is like giving the finger to all those people.
Plus, if it is based on existing material, it is inevitably going to be compared to it, and it is very hard, maybe impossible for a fangame to surpass that of its original source.
post=134342
About fangaming x cloning:
I'd rather see a game that is conceptually original but deliberately clones the system of some other good game(s) than seeing a game that is a fangame but twists the systems of the original game.
For instance... I'd rather see a game called "Whoof" that clones Sonic but uses a green dog instead of a blue hedgehog than seeing a Sonic fangame with RM2K3 DBS.
Yeah, unless you're going to turn Sonic into an RPG in the 'accurate' way that Nintendo turned Mario into an RPG, then it's pointless. It defeats the whole spirit and 'point' of the series (Well, it's been already defeated by Sega but don't stomp a hedgehog when it's down)
post=134382
Making a fangame for me was a great way of catapulting me in making RPGs in general..
Same here.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=134329
I was actually looking forward to what you had to say, Azn.
I will give my input later but I am having a busy time right now as I have to decide within about a week where I am going for college!
Toss their letters toward a tree. Closest one to the tree is the one you go to. Write a post, already!
As a fan-game maker myself I try to put a creative spin on the game by not just throwing a bunch of random characters into a random world.
I try to think of my story as 'inspired' by the games I'm sourcing from rather than a direct copy. Same with a number of other things present in Cosplay Crisis.
I also try to think of my characters as 'more' than what they were in the game their derived from. I try to embellish points I feel were lacking in order to make the character feel that little bit more real, or I add/change things to make the character distinguishable from their originals but still accurate and a proper homage.
I think fangames generally get given a bad rap for the reasons mentioned here: made by newbies, young, and want to replicate their favourite games. I'm not saying I'm an apple far from that tree, but I try to execute my ideas with a bit of style and flair.
I think this needs to be done with any decent fan-game. Also, while trying to be original, I also try to invoke a feeling of nostalgia through playing for veterans of the series's. If not a veteran, it just plays as you would a normal game.
I failed at making a direct 'sequel' and I am trying to sort of redeem myself for that horrific mess of an idea.
It wasn't necessary and there are just too many theories for a sequel to be plausible if made by a fan rather than someone who actually wrote/knows the story accurately.
All in all I have to support fangames and crossovers. I no longer support, nor will I ever again, the idea of making a sequel/prequel/I don't care. It's unrational and pretty dang stupid.
I try to think of my story as 'inspired' by the games I'm sourcing from rather than a direct copy. Same with a number of other things present in Cosplay Crisis.
I also try to think of my characters as 'more' than what they were in the game their derived from. I try to embellish points I feel were lacking in order to make the character feel that little bit more real, or I add/change things to make the character distinguishable from their originals but still accurate and a proper homage.
I think fangames generally get given a bad rap for the reasons mentioned here: made by newbies, young, and want to replicate their favourite games. I'm not saying I'm an apple far from that tree, but I try to execute my ideas with a bit of style and flair.
I think this needs to be done with any decent fan-game. Also, while trying to be original, I also try to invoke a feeling of nostalgia through playing for veterans of the series's. If not a veteran, it just plays as you would a normal game.
I failed at making a direct 'sequel' and I am trying to sort of redeem myself for that horrific mess of an idea.
It wasn't necessary and there are just too many theories for a sequel to be plausible if made by a fan rather than someone who actually wrote/knows the story accurately.
All in all I have to support fangames and crossovers. I no longer support, nor will I ever again, the idea of making a sequel/prequel/I don't care. It's unrational and pretty dang stupid.
I think DE is taking amicability lessons from nightblade.
But I mean it's not like I don't BASICALLY agree with the last statement.
But I mean it's not like I don't BASICALLY agree with the last statement.
I myself support any type of fan-game, sequels, crossovers, or spin-off's with minor characters now playing the main role in their own story. Speaking as someone who is making a fan-sequel I know that sometimes the events from the end just beg to have a game created for it. Or maybe you forsee another adventure/story taking place in that universe and you want to be the one that tells it. However I do not like a story that tries to force the characters from the original game into personalities that they plainly are not, you can't just change a defined personality because you think it would be better another way. It's okay to change a story to fit the universe of a game, after all you are working with characters whose personalities are already defined and whose universe works in a certain way, but do not try to make the game fit the story. It is not cool to change the spunky hero from the original game into a disgruntled hero that is bitter and jaded, unless of course you provide story reasons for such a change. If you've got an awesome story but you would need to drasticaly change the universe of the game that you want to set it in then go make an original game. It would be recieved better and, most likely, would be better. That is just my two cents though.
Sometimes certain game developers -- RPG devs in particular, leave things in their games that are SCREAMING for extra attention (Btw, I think there are also things that scream for extra attention that should be ignored. Like certain aspects of say, the movie Cloverfield. Because the creator intended to leave things ambiguous). And although it's foolish to think that some random RM dev could do it justice, I feel that's the most attractive element of fangamemaking. Also, certain games will never receive follow-ups because of how the industry is.
I prefer spin-offs to sequels, btw.
sunshinesan
534
post=134528
I myself support any type of fan-game, sequels, crossovers, or spin-off's with minor characters now playing the main role in their own story. Speaking as someone who is making a fan-sequel I know that sometimes the events from the end just beg to have a game created for it. Or maybe you forsee another adventure/story taking place in that universe and you want to be the one that tells it. However I do not like a story that tries to force the characters from the original game into personalities that they plainly are not, you can't just change a defined personality because you think it would be better another way. It's okay to change a story to fit the universe of a game, after all you are working with characters whose personalities are already defined and whose universe works in a certain way, but do not try to make the game fit the story. It is not cool to change the spunky hero from the original game into a disgruntled hero that is bitter and jaded, unless of course you provide story reasons for such a change. If you've got an awesome story but you would need to drasticaly change the universe of the game that you want to set it in then go make an original game. It would be recieved better and, most likely, would be better. That is just my two cents though.
I feel like one of the draws of making fan-games is that you can build new stories off of the existing characters' demeanors and the interactions that are produced due to that.
If you really wanted to change the attitudes, traits of an existing character, you might as well make original characters in the first place.
AznChipmunk
4613
Okay posting. I'll keep this short as possible but I want to contribute.
I do not really like fangames. Most of them suck. However, fangames are not NECESSARILY worse but there are multiple reasons as why they usually worse. But... well... first, there have been several things in this topic I would like to categorize and clarify:
1. Adaptations. (of literature or whatnot) These are not fangames. Example: Book of Three. This is like... calling a film adaptation of a book a "fanmovie." No. It's just an adaptation. It's an attempt at interpreting direct source material.
2. Fangames. Works that take place in a pre-imagined setting, use characters from someone else's work... basically stuff like FF:Shattered Lands, FF:Endless Nova... Those CT fangames, etc. etc.
(2a. Also, a group that can be counted as a subset of fangames are parodies, but that's really an entirely different story. Cosplay Crisis falls into this category.)
3. Works inspired by other works. Pretty much EVERYTHING YOU DO FALLS INTO THIS CATEGORY. Fangames included, but it's a "square is a rectangle but rectangle is not always a square" situation. True originality is not very common and people who specifically strive to create something completely different usually create garbage. That's why "tried and true" formulas of game design exist. If you make an RPG, you will have RPG elements inspired or taken from RPGs you have played (like having battles). If you make a platformer, same deal (like jumping). Hero's Realm and Dragon Fantasy fall only into this category out of the three I have listed.
Now, if you take a cross section of what really is the "fangames" category, you will pretty much get a bunch of shitty games. So let's tackle it. Why do fangames suck?
First: Fangames try to imitate source material but almost never attain the quality of the source material and players familiar with the source material will probably judge the work against it. Your FF6 fangame will not be as good as FF6.
Second: Fangames, by nature, tend to lack originality. They need an extra push in the creativity department to make them stand out, making them boring very easily. Creators also will try to emulate the "formula" of the original game and this makes the game either super predictable or even more unoriginal. For example a fangame may try to copy cities or bosses or enemies from source material. I worked on a fangame of CT once, and I tried to copy a ton of things directly from CT: maps, locations, plot elements, characters, monsters, etc. Basically I put in a lot of work towards something that would've been much better being original, than spending time making sure my work was accurate to the source.
Third: Most of them are made by newbies or those less experienced. It's true. Most of the more experienced developers I've seen use their skills and efforts in creating their own personal original works.
Fourth: I honestly never enjoy a fangame as much as I enjoy something original. This also falls in with the idea of "judging it against source material."
My biggest issue with fangames? They are "tainted" -- fangames lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work. It's not really his work, it's borrowed from somewhere else. It's not really his own expression of creativity and passion but rather an attempt to follow someone else. It's like... being Luigi to someone's Mario. And then, most of the time when fangames do escape this "taint," they are original to the point where the only reason they are a fangame is because the author decided to title it as such.
to reiterate: fangames suck
I do not really like fangames. Most of them suck. However, fangames are not NECESSARILY worse but there are multiple reasons as why they usually worse. But... well... first, there have been several things in this topic I would like to categorize and clarify:
1. Adaptations. (of literature or whatnot) These are not fangames. Example: Book of Three. This is like... calling a film adaptation of a book a "fanmovie." No. It's just an adaptation. It's an attempt at interpreting direct source material.
2. Fangames. Works that take place in a pre-imagined setting, use characters from someone else's work... basically stuff like FF:Shattered Lands, FF:Endless Nova... Those CT fangames, etc. etc.
(2a. Also, a group that can be counted as a subset of fangames are parodies, but that's really an entirely different story. Cosplay Crisis falls into this category.)
3. Works inspired by other works. Pretty much EVERYTHING YOU DO FALLS INTO THIS CATEGORY. Fangames included, but it's a "square is a rectangle but rectangle is not always a square" situation. True originality is not very common and people who specifically strive to create something completely different usually create garbage. That's why "tried and true" formulas of game design exist. If you make an RPG, you will have RPG elements inspired or taken from RPGs you have played (like having battles). If you make a platformer, same deal (like jumping). Hero's Realm and Dragon Fantasy fall only into this category out of the three I have listed.
Now, if you take a cross section of what really is the "fangames" category, you will pretty much get a bunch of shitty games. So let's tackle it. Why do fangames suck?
First: Fangames try to imitate source material but almost never attain the quality of the source material and players familiar with the source material will probably judge the work against it. Your FF6 fangame will not be as good as FF6.
Second: Fangames, by nature, tend to lack originality. They need an extra push in the creativity department to make them stand out, making them boring very easily. Creators also will try to emulate the "formula" of the original game and this makes the game either super predictable or even more unoriginal. For example a fangame may try to copy cities or bosses or enemies from source material. I worked on a fangame of CT once, and I tried to copy a ton of things directly from CT: maps, locations, plot elements, characters, monsters, etc. Basically I put in a lot of work towards something that would've been much better being original, than spending time making sure my work was accurate to the source.
Third: Most of them are made by newbies or those less experienced. It's true. Most of the more experienced developers I've seen use their skills and efforts in creating their own personal original works.
Fourth: I honestly never enjoy a fangame as much as I enjoy something original. This also falls in with the idea of "judging it against source material."
My biggest issue with fangames? They are "tainted" -- fangames lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work. It's not really his work, it's borrowed from somewhere else. It's not really his own expression of creativity and passion but rather an attempt to follow someone else. It's like... being Luigi to someone's Mario. And then, most of the time when fangames do escape this "taint," they are original to the point where the only reason they are a fangame is because the author decided to title it as such.
to reiterate: fangames suck
Short as possible, ay.
This only applies if the game is trying to be a fan sequel. In the case of the spin-off -- the kind of fangame I prefer, that is not necessarily applicable. If you decided to make a . Although it would lack the credibility of a FF title, are you saying that some of the more competent designers here couldn't make something better than Final Fantasy IV or heck Final Fantasy IV: The After?
Er, really, I think MOST games need a push in the creativity department. The 'original' game in which the empire of Lryzaphelia created the crystals of DSDAFDS etc. hey RTP + default battle system! is not more creative than, say, 'Tetris RPG' I don't understand the 'It might as well be original!' fallacy, because what if the idea is closely related to the source material? What if you like the idea of lightsabers? What if the idea is to deconstruct a particular work?
*This* is the only problem with fan games, and why they will almost never be good.
Do you have an issue with adaptations, too? Adaptations are essentially 'borrowed from somewhere else'. Naoki Urasawa's 'Pluto' manga works because we see an *icon* (Astro Boy) reinterpreted in a different light. It's like saying that the Tingle spin-off is bad because it lacks Shigeru Miyamoto's personal touch or that -- heck - - most of the Final Fantasies lack 'the creator's' personal touch. In the case of the Tingle game, the developers took the key characteristics of Tingle (Rupees) and made a strange, campy adventure game out of it. HECK, Star Wars KOTOR: The Sith Lords was made more interesting than the original game with the new creator's (Chris Avellone) personal touch! To say that he should have saved the story/characters fromt that game for his original work is missing the point.
While all the above are experienced developers, if we boil the idea of fangame to what it ACTUALLY IS, then that's what they are (Well, Pluto is a fan manga)
First: Fangames try to imitate source material but almost never attain the quality of the source material and players familiar with the source material will probably judge the work against it. Your FF6 fangame will not be as good as FF6.
This only applies if the game is trying to be a fan sequel. In the case of the spin-off -- the kind of fangame I prefer, that is not necessarily applicable. If you decided to make a . Although it would lack the credibility of a FF title, are you saying that some of the more competent designers here couldn't make something better than Final Fantasy IV or heck Final Fantasy IV: The After?
Second: Fangames, by nature, tend to lack originality. They need an extra push in the creativity department to make them stand out, making them boring very easily. Creators also will try to emulate the "formula" of the original game and this makes the game either super predictable or even more unoriginal. For example a fangame may try to copy cities or bosses or enemies from source material. I worked on a fangame of CT once, and I tried to copy a ton of things directly from CT: maps, locations, plot elements, characters, monsters, etc. Basically I put in a lot of work towards something that would've been much better being original, than spending time making sure my work was accurate to the source.
Er, really, I think MOST games need a push in the creativity department. The 'original' game in which the empire of Lryzaphelia created the crystals of DSDAFDS etc. hey RTP + default battle system! is not more creative than, say, 'Tetris RPG' I don't understand the 'It might as well be original!' fallacy, because what if the idea is closely related to the source material? What if you like the idea of lightsabers? What if the idea is to deconstruct a particular work?
Third: Most of them are made by newbies or those less experienced. It's true. Most of the more experienced developers I've seen use their skills and efforts in creating their own personal original works.
*This* is the only problem with fan games, and why they will almost never be good.
My biggest issue with fangames? They are "tainted" -- fangames lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work. It's not really his work, it's borrowed from somewhere else. It's not really his own expression of creativity and passion but rather an attempt to follow someone else. It's like... being Luigi to someone's Mario. And then, most of the time when fangames do escape this "taint," they are original to the point where the only reason they are a fangame is because the author decided to title it as such.
Do you have an issue with adaptations, too? Adaptations are essentially 'borrowed from somewhere else'. Naoki Urasawa's 'Pluto' manga works because we see an *icon* (Astro Boy) reinterpreted in a different light. It's like saying that the Tingle spin-off is bad because it lacks Shigeru Miyamoto's personal touch or that -- heck - - most of the Final Fantasies lack 'the creator's' personal touch. In the case of the Tingle game, the developers took the key characteristics of Tingle (Rupees) and made a strange, campy adventure game out of it. HECK, Star Wars KOTOR: The Sith Lords was made more interesting than the original game with the new creator's (Chris Avellone) personal touch! To say that he should have saved the story/characters fromt that game for his original work is missing the point.
While all the above are experienced developers, if we boil the idea of fangame to what it ACTUALLY IS, then that's what they are (Well, Pluto is a fan manga)
Still you couldn't name a single good fangame.
--edit---
Now that I think of it...
You mentioned Marvel Brothel... it was part of a fangames contest, like I said. There were 3 other entries, and all of them, in my opinion, are good games (yeah, I'm including my own). So I'm defeating my own argument of "I've never seen a good fangame".
Still, they're games based on existing brands, but not existing games. It's different. I think making a "Sex and the city" fangame is completely different than making a "Kingdom Hearts" fangame. I don't think I really need to explain that.
But I mostly agree with Azn on the originality issue, and I'd still rather try and create my own stuff than taking something directly from other sources. Of course, you can make a fangame that is original in a lot of aspects. But not only that is hard, but you run the risk of corrupting what is good on the source material. I, for once, HATE seeing characters I like from games (like Locke, Terra, Magus) in fangames. It always looks like mockery.
--edit---
Now that I think of it...
You mentioned Marvel Brothel... it was part of a fangames contest, like I said. There were 3 other entries, and all of them, in my opinion, are good games (yeah, I'm including my own). So I'm defeating my own argument of "I've never seen a good fangame".
Still, they're games based on existing brands, but not existing games. It's different. I think making a "Sex and the city" fangame is completely different than making a "Kingdom Hearts" fangame. I don't think I really need to explain that.
But I mostly agree with Azn on the originality issue, and I'd still rather try and create my own stuff than taking something directly from other sources. Of course, you can make a fangame that is original in a lot of aspects. But not only that is hard, but you run the risk of corrupting what is good on the source material. I, for once, HATE seeing characters I like from games (like Locke, Terra, Magus) in fangames. It always looks like mockery.
