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SORRY, BUT I LOVE THE IDEA OF MAKING FANGAMES.
Posts
Decky
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CloseOn one hand, if a fangame has good writing, it usually has horrible gameplay.
On the other hand, if a fangame has excellent gameplay, it usually features abysmal writing and mapping.
I must admit that my experience with RPG Maker fangames is pretty limited, though. If someone could find a fangame OF an RPG Maker game, then that would be epic.
On the other hand, if a fangame has excellent gameplay, it usually features abysmal writing and mapping.
I must admit that my experience with RPG Maker fangames is pretty limited, though. If someone could find a fangame OF an RPG Maker game, then that would be epic.
I have plans for doing exactly that.
And it has already been done (for the same creator).
Look up The Red Contestant.
And it has already been done (for the same creator).
Look up The Red Contestant.
^ That sounds fantastic.
I do think that Aznchipmunk is also right; IF you see game design or whatever as a serious investment/'art'/youknowwhatImean, then having 'something to say' through original work is no doubt more important than piggybacking off of existing works for the rest of your life.
I *do* have original projects floating around at the back of my mind -- certain 'things' to say' -- but I want to keep them in the backburner for now because they're too ambitious (No, and not in the 100+ hr gameplay 50 party member sense) I like the idea of making fangames 'cos:
+ I get to express my love for certain games, have fun
+ Game making underestimated, even with RPG Maker. Making fangames allows me to rip/edit existing graphics without feeling too bad about it. There is *no way* I'm using ripped graphics or RTP to create my original works. And to tell myself that 'oh hey I'll create all the graphics and all the audio and the plot and everything myself' is unrealistic at this busy point in my life.
+ While I rip and edit and write plots for fan games, I'm learning about the craft without thinking TOO MUCH about it. This is the most important thing in regards to doing my original projects justice. It's what they say with art and imitation. You have to start imitating blahblah
Also, games based on existing brands and games based on games: yes, it's kind of different, but only because you have game mechanics from the original work to live up to. With Chrono Trigger, I would not dare attempt a fan game in, say, RPG Maker 2003. eg. people would obviously see a Chrono game with a separate battle screen as infer --- oh, hey (That was a genuine 'oh hey')
post=134599
But I mostly agree with Azn on the originality issue, and I'd still rather try and create my own stuff than taking something directly from other sources. Of course, you can make a fangame that is original in a lot of aspects. But not only that is hard, but you run the risk of corrupting what is good on the source material. I, for once, HATE seeing characters I like from games (like Locke, Terra, Magus) in fangames. It always looks like mockery.
I do think that Aznchipmunk is also right; IF you see game design or whatever as a serious investment/'art'/youknowwhatImean, then having 'something to say' through original work is no doubt more important than piggybacking off of existing works for the rest of your life.
I *do* have original projects floating around at the back of my mind -- certain 'things' to say' -- but I want to keep them in the backburner for now because they're too ambitious (No, and not in the 100+ hr gameplay 50 party member sense) I like the idea of making fangames 'cos:
+ I get to express my love for certain games, have fun
+ Game making underestimated, even with RPG Maker. Making fangames allows me to rip/edit existing graphics without feeling too bad about it. There is *no way* I'm using ripped graphics or RTP to create my original works. And to tell myself that 'oh hey I'll create all the graphics and all the audio and the plot and everything myself' is unrealistic at this busy point in my life.
+ While I rip and edit and write plots for fan games, I'm learning about the craft without thinking TOO MUCH about it. This is the most important thing in regards to doing my original projects justice. It's what they say with art and imitation. You have to start imitating blahblah
Also, games based on existing brands and games based on games: yes, it's kind of different, but only because you have game mechanics from the original work to live up to. With Chrono Trigger, I would not dare attempt a fan game in, say, RPG Maker 2003. eg. people would obviously see a Chrono game with a separate battle screen as infer --- oh, hey (That was a genuine 'oh hey')
Oh, so you're making a fangame yourself! That explains everything.
Seems like you're trying to rationalize your choice of making a fangame instead of an original game (i.e. you're not capable of coming with an original story and characters and/or translate them into game form). It's actually quite similar to people editing ripped sprites because they are too afraid of attempting to draw one from scratch (due to expected negative comments from more experienced spriters).
I'm not judging you, just making an observation.
Seems like you're trying to rationalize your choice of making a fangame instead of an original game (i.e. you're not capable of coming with an original story and characters and/or translate them into game form). It's actually quite similar to people editing ripped sprites because they are too afraid of attempting to draw one from scratch (due to expected negative comments from more experienced spriters).
I'm not judging you, just making an observation.
Speaking of sprites, all your responses have been pretty two-dimensional. You're wrong, but have fun making your baseless observations.
What a stupid thing to say. People have to start somewhere, especially when it comes to a hobby like this where the amateur/indie developer has to wear multiple hats.
post=134648
It's actually quite similar to people editing ripped sprites because they are too afraid of attempting to draw one from scratch (due to expected negative comments from more experienced spriters).
What a stupid thing to say. People have to start somewhere, especially when it comes to a hobby like this where the amateur/indie developer has to wear multiple hats.
You are almost doomed to failure if the first RM any game you make is filled with custom artwork and music and intricate custom systems.
catmitts
4862
kinda off topic but i do wonder how having ready-to-go rtp graphics has warped the way people think about this. every other gamemaking community i know takes it for granted that you start out with cruddy programmer art and then develop naturally from there (or find some halfway decent workaround) but the attitude with RM games seems to be that there's no point using custom stuff unless it looks better (or more detailed, at any rate) than ripped graphics. this is not a big thing with gamemaker or construct or AGS, at least that i've noticed. you dont see platformer guys preferring yoshi's island rips to basic custom stuff on the grounds that it's more polished. people here seem to hesitate at the immediate visual downgrade once you switch from rips to beginner's custom and so just stick with rips. apparantly custom means a phd from PIXEL U.
Is there something wrong with wanting games to look nice? I usually agree with your points, catmitts, but that just seems weird. I don't even use rips, but I like things to look not-crummy.
catmitts
4862
it's not wrong with wanting them to look nice and i'm not gonna get into another CUSTOM V RIPS argument but it seems odd that if you look at somewhere like tigsource or wherever one of the big things is the idea of uh simplistic and stripped-down but still stylish pixel art like in cactus games
and as far as i know this has never come over to rpg maker at all. apart from that one Cavern Of Doom game maybe but when you consider this is basically the house art style of indie games pretty much then yeah it's a strange difference!
and as far as i know this has never come over to rpg maker at all. apart from that one Cavern Of Doom game maybe but when you consider this is basically the house art style of indie games pretty much then yeah it's a strange difference!
RTP may be the culprit, but it may also be the audience RPG maker is marketed towards. RM practically screams "MAKE YOUR OWN FINAL FANTASY OR DRAQON QUEST GAME!" A lot of people are attracted to it for exactly that reason.
catmitts: Chromatose, Wooby RPG, all of Lennon's work, and some other stuff is like that... but that's not really important.
I get what you mean now! I thought you were saying UGLY CUSTOM > DECENT RIPS, but, uh, no. I understand and agree with you now.
I get what you mean now! I thought you were saying UGLY CUSTOM > DECENT RIPS, but, uh, no. I understand and agree with you now.
post=134581
Okay posting. I'll keep this short as possible but I want to contribute.
Second: Fangames, by nature, tend to lack originality. They need an extra push in the creativity department to make them stand out, making them boring very easily. Creators also will try to emulate the "formula" of the original game and this makes the game either super predictable or even more unoriginal. For example a fangame may try to copy cities or bosses or enemies from source material. I worked on a fangame of CT once, and I tried to copy a ton of things directly from CT: maps, locations, plot elements, characters, monsters, etc. Basically I put in a lot of work towards something that would've been much better being original, than spending time making sure my work was accurate to the source.
Third: Most of them are made by newbies or those less experienced. It's true. Most of the more experienced developers I've seen use their skills and efforts in creating their own personal original works.
Fourth: I honestly never enjoy a fangame as much as I enjoy something original. This also falls in with the idea of "judging it against source material."
My biggest issue with fangames? They are "tainted" -- fangames lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work. It's not really his work, it's borrowed from somewhere else. It's not really his own expression of creativity and passion but rather an attempt to follow someone else. It's like... being Luigi to someone's Mario. And then, most of the time when fangames do escape this "taint," they are original to the point where the only reason they are a fangame is because the author decided to title it as such.
to reiterate: fangames suck
I can understand the annoyance of going through and trying to make your game look like the original source. Ironically enough I am doing a CT fan game and trying to get it as close as possible to the source, or at least in the same style so people would think that it is chrono trigger-ish, and it is a pain in the ass(i'm only maybe 1/4 done with the combat engine). However it also made me realize how hard it must have been to create this stuff from scratch!!
I think fangames are a good place to learn to use the maker, and I encourage fan game making, but I wouldn't restrict myself to only making fan games. Now that I have explored, poked, and prodded around in the engine it gives me a better understanding of what I could make an original game do.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=134585This does not only apply to fan sequels. If you tag something with Final Fantasy, people will judge it against the real series. If you tag something with Dragon Warrior, likewise. It is not specific to being a sequel.
Short as possible, ay.
This only applies if the game is trying to be a fan sequel. In the case of the spin-off -- the kind of fangame I prefer, that is not necessarily applicable. If you decided to make a . Although it would lack the credibility of a FF title, are you saying that some of the more competent designers here couldn't make something better than Final Fantasy IV or heck Final Fantasy IV: The After?
post=134585This is kind of irrelevant. Such games are not original because the creator simply didn't use an originality. Fangames are unoriginal because they are fangames. The "it might as well be original" thing comes from the fact that many of the good fangames are not closely related to source material and the "Final Fantasy" or whatever only is a label.
Er, really, I think MOST games need a push in the creativity department. The 'original' game in which the empire of Lryzaphelia created the crystals of DSDAFDS etc. hey RTP + default battle system! is not more creative than, say, 'Tetris RPG' I don't understand the 'It might as well be original!' fallacy, because what if the idea is closely related to the source material? What if you like the idea of lightsabers? What if the idea is to deconstruct a particular work?
Also, I am not talking about RPGMaker. I'm just talking about the idea of fangames in general. I don't know why RTP or RPGMaker battle systems come into play in this conversation.
post=134585I didn't say anything about adaptations being bad but I clarified them being different from fangames. I love adaptations if they are well done. Oldboy is one of my favorite films and it is adapted from a comic. I really like The Book of Three and it is adapted from a book.
Do you have an issue with adaptations, too? Adaptations are essentially 'borrowed from somewhere else'. Naoki Urasawa's 'Pluto' manga works because we see an *icon* (Astro Boy) reinterpreted in a different light. It's like saying that the Tingle spin-off is bad because it lacks Shigeru Miyamoto's personal touch or that -- heck - - most of the Final Fantasies lack 'the creator's' personal touch. In the case of the Tingle game, the developers took the key characteristics of Tingle (Rupees) and made a strange, campy adventure game out of it. HECK, Star Wars KOTOR: The Sith Lords was made more interesting than the original game with the new creator's (Chris Avellone) personal touch! To say that he should have saved the story/characters fromt that game for his original work is missing the point.
While all the above are experienced developers, if we boil the idea of fangame to what it ACTUALLY IS, then that's what they are (Well, Pluto is a fan manga)
None of the examples you listed are actually examples of fangames. Tingle is a pretty shitty character and probably the worst Zelda character. The KOTOR and Final Fantasy games are in the original canon... an official sequel is not a fangame.
post=134694Maybe for learning but typically the best things are not created by people who are in the process of learning the basics but by people who already know what they are doing.
I think fangames are a good place to learn to use the maker, and I encourage fan game making, but I wouldn't restrict myself to only making fan games. Now that I have explored, poked, and prodded around in the engine it gives me a better understanding of what I could make an original game do.
And I agree with catmitts about RTP discouraging development. I began gamedesign with Games Factory and Multimedia Fusion... and with them, I drew everything by hand, even though the art was pretty bad. However, when I found RPGMaker, I stopped doing that for a long time because of RTP and rips.
Countless conversations like these are why I'm slowly edging towards the 'I literally don't give a shit about anything in the development process/what the game looks like/rips/original graphics/fangame/original concept/battle system/program used to make game/etc as long as its fun' camp. Honestly I think all of us spend too much time driving pointless minute shit into the ground instead of making, playing, and ultimately finishing games, and then ironically when we're confronted about it we throw up our hands and say 'I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO FINISH MAKING/PLAYING GAMES OKAY' *posts incessantly about stupid shit instead*
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.
post=134716
Countless conversations like these are why I'm slowly edging towards the 'I literally don't give a shit about anything in the development process/what the game looks like/rips/original graphics/fangame/original concept/battle system/program used to make game/etc as long as its fun' camp. Honestly I think all of us spend too much time driving pointless minute shit into the ground instead of making, playing, and ultimately finishing games, and then ironically when we're confronted about it we throw up our hands and say 'I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO FINISH MAKING/PLAYING GAMES OKAY' *posts incessantly about stupid shit instead*
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.
Name a "bad element of design" for RPGs and I can name a matching game that I adored. Bottom line is yes: we do get caught up in the "this versus that" fundamentals. Hell, some people get so high strung that they "refuse" to play a game if it has a concept they dislike.
Random battles? Oh no! Fixed encounters? Can't have those, so I won't play! And so on.
I solve the problem by not playing any games.
EDIT:
I am firmly in the "Do what you want but adjust expectations accordingly" camp.
EDIT:
I am firmly in the "Do what you want but adjust expectations accordingly" camp.
post=134718
I solve the problem by not playing any games.
But you make a shitton of them, so it balances itself out.
post=134718
I solve the problem by not playing any games.
EDIT:
I am firmly in the "Do what you want but adjust expectations accordingly" camp.
You really don't play other games?
post=134717post=134716Name a "bad element of design" for RPGs and I can name a matching game that I adored. Bottom line is yes: we do get caught up in the "this versus that" fundamentals. Hell, some people get so high strung that they "refuse" to play a game if it has a concept they dislike.
Countless conversations like these are why I'm slowly edging towards the 'I literally don't give a shit about anything in the development process/what the game looks like/rips/original graphics/fangame/original concept/battle system/program used to make game/etc as long as its fun' camp. Honestly I think all of us spend too much time driving pointless minute shit into the ground instead of making, playing, and ultimately finishing games, and then ironically when we're confronted about it we throw up our hands and say 'I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO FINISH MAKING/PLAYING GAMES OKAY' *posts incessantly about stupid shit instead*
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.
Random battles? Oh no! Fixed encounters? Can't have those, so I won't play! And so on.
Yeah it sorta reminds me when I worked in a restaurant and my girlfriend's dad used to be a professional chef, and like, hardcore food critics are the worst. Never get in a conversation about food with a bunch of chefs if you're not one of them.
"You mean these tomatoes were grown in Peru instead of Spain, therefore failing to meet my exact exceptions!? FUCK TOMATOES"
*goes on to have a heated debate on the exact temperature to cook a burger to decide whether it's either delicious or entirely not edible down to the 1/10 of a degree*
post=134720post=134718You really don't play other games?
I solve the problem by not playing any games.
EDIT:
I am firmly in the "Do what you want but adjust expectations accordingly" camp.
I don't play games. Commercial, RM or otherwise.
...except for the odd casual game like Plants vs Zombies or Forgotten Lands.
My Wii is sitting in a backpack in the storage room next to the boxes containing my NES, SNES, and Xbox. I find that making games is much more interesting than playing them.
