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SORRY, BUT I LOVE THE IDEA OF MAKING FANGAMES.
Posts
Decky
View playlists
CloseI don't play games. Commercial, RM or otherwise.
...except for the odd casual game like Plants vs Zombies or Forgotten Lands.
My Wii is sitting in a backpack in the storage room next to the boxes containing my NES, SNES, and Xbox. I find that making games is much more interesting than playing them.
Fair enough. For a second, I thought you were one of those "I make games but don't play anyone else's because they suck" people. Would have been a sad moment :)
post=134701My point is: What is a fangame, if it isn't someone else *not the original creator* putting their spin on a certain universe? Chris Avellone is not George Lucas. The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company. The word fangame has bad connotations but when you look at it from a design/art perspective, there's no difference. If you look at Sonic Chronicles, the only thing Bioware had over say, Sonic Fan Games HQ is resources, staff, etc. The Bioware Doctor behind that game probably dug up his reserve of Sonic fanfiction for that game, and if Enterbrain gave us slightly better software then anyone could have made that game. But let's just agree to disagree.
AznChipmunk
(And no, Tingle is great. Regardless of whether you like him or not, his games are good and reflect the character well.)
post=134716
Countless conversations like these are why I'm slowly edging towards the 'I literally don't give a shit about anything in the development process/what the game looks like/rips/original graphics/fangame/original concept/battle system/program used to make game/etc as long as its fun' camp. Honestly I think all of us spend too much time driving pointless minute shit into the ground instead of making, playing, and ultimately finishing games, and then ironically when we're confronted about it we throw up our hands and say 'I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO FINISH MAKING/PLAYING GAMES OKAY' *posts incessantly about stupid shit instead*
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these conversations on the fundamentals of games; they give a lot of insight, but god damn.
*Blushes*
I do agree with you. The people really who care about this shit are busy making their games instead of talking about it. I'LL GO MAKE NOW
Neophyte
155
post=134722
"You mean these tomatoes were grown in Peru instead of Spain, therefore failing to meet my exact exceptions!? FUCK TOMATOES"
*goes on to have a heated debate on the exact temperature to cook a burger to decide whether it's either delicious or entirely not edible down to the 1/10 of a degree*
Haha, that was great.
By the way, JKB is making a pretty rad Megaman game. It looks fun.
Some commenting on the last posts:
WeaselEliot: I don't agree with some of the things you say, and you made a post that made me believe you're making a fangame because you're too lazy to make an original one. I'm really in no mood to discuss this phrase-by-phrase like some of you are doing... I'll just say that if you're really working on a fangame, after this topic you have a big responsability in your hands. Huge.
catmitts: Like Craze said, you're actually wrong. There is a good deal of receptiveness for custom art in this community (see the games he named). And my taste agrees with you on this, I love completely custom art, no matter how weird. But I like beautiful rips too.
Feld: I don't understand your post. I agree that there are lots of pointless discussions in this community, but this is not one of them.
kentona: It's your choice not to play any games, I just think you shouldn't be so proud about it. You're an example for this community, and in this particular case, a bad one.
WeaselEliot: I don't agree with some of the things you say, and you made a post that made me believe you're making a fangame because you're too lazy to make an original one. I'm really in no mood to discuss this phrase-by-phrase like some of you are doing... I'll just say that if you're really working on a fangame, after this topic you have a big responsability in your hands. Huge.
catmitts: Like Craze said, you're actually wrong. There is a good deal of receptiveness for custom art in this community (see the games he named). And my taste agrees with you on this, I love completely custom art, no matter how weird. But I like beautiful rips too.
Feld: I don't understand your post. I agree that there are lots of pointless discussions in this community, but this is not one of them.
kentona: It's your choice not to play any games, I just think you shouldn't be so proud about it. You're an example for this community, and in this particular case, a bad one.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=134739
My point is: What is a fangame, if it isn't someone else *not the original creator* putting their spin on a certain universe? Chris Avellone is not George Lucas. The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company. The word fangame has bad connotations but when you look at it from a design/art perspective, there's no difference. If you look at Sonic Chronicles, the only thing Bioware had over say, Sonic Fan Games HQ is resources, staff, etc. The Bioware Doctor behind that game probably dug up his reserve of Sonic fanfiction for that game, and if Enterbrain gave us slightly better software then anyone could have made that game. But let's just agree to disagree.
"The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company."
Yes, and this is a lot. KOTOR is part of an "official" canon because it is appraised by LucasArts, which is a subsidiary of LucasFilm. People ACTUALLY INVOLVED with the group that created the Star Wars films are involved with putting out KOTOR. Chris Avellone is not just some random dude on the street and KOTOR is not merely the result of him, nor is Star Wars merely the result of George Lucas.
Meanwhile, your CT/FF6/FF7/DW fangame made on RPGMaker will never get noticed by Square-Enix.
The person most tied to being the "creator" or a film is the director (I'm a occasional filmmaker myself) and yes, George Lucas "created" Star Wars. But did you know George Lucas only directed one out of three of the original Star Wars films? Two different other guys directed V and VI. Would you call those "fanmovies?" I don't think so.
We can agree to disagree if you can't defend your point anymore (lol you give up) but honestly, you just sound like you're providing excuses for the fact that you are making a fangame.
post=134766
WeaselEliot: I don't agree with some of the things you say, and you made a post that made me believe you're making a fangame because you're too lazy to make an original one. I'm really in no mood to discuss this phrase-by-phrase like some of you are doing... I'll just say that if you're really working on a fangame, after this topic you have a big responsability in your hands. Huge.
Yeah. After all you've said... You better produce a mindblowingly good fangame or we'll all be severely disappointed.
post=134766
kentona: It's your choice not to play any games, I just think you shouldn't be so proud about it. You're an example for this community, and in this particular case, a bad one.
lol. kentona.
I forgot to comment on this:
I see this somehow on reverse: if you are making a serious investment in game design, you should be something of a people-pleaser, and heavily basing your projects on previously successful ones is actually going to be a good idea. That's if you want to be a professional game-maker, or even an amateur one but making games that get 239484389 downloads. On the other hand, if you take game making more lightly, do it for fun, because you feel like it, then you'll be doing that just for expression's sake... in which case you won't be necessarily ORIGINAL, but at least you'll reflect your own views and personality, instead of repeating existing stuff.
I do think that Aznchipmunk is also right; IF you see game design or whatever as a serious investment/'art'/youknowwhatImean, then having 'something to say' through original work is no doubt more important than piggybacking off of existing works for the rest of your life.
I see this somehow on reverse: if you are making a serious investment in game design, you should be something of a people-pleaser, and heavily basing your projects on previously successful ones is actually going to be a good idea. That's if you want to be a professional game-maker, or even an amateur one but making games that get 239484389 downloads. On the other hand, if you take game making more lightly, do it for fun, because you feel like it, then you'll be doing that just for expression's sake... in which case you won't be necessarily ORIGINAL, but at least you'll reflect your own views and personality, instead of repeating existing stuff.
post=134775post=134739"The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company."
My point is: What is a fangame, if it isn't someone else *not the original creator* putting their spin on a certain universe? Chris Avellone is not George Lucas. The only dividing line between a fan game and an official sequel is appraisal by the company. The word fangame has bad connotations but when you look at it from a design/art perspective, there's no difference. If you look at Sonic Chronicles, the only thing Bioware had over say, Sonic Fan Games HQ is resources, staff, etc. The Bioware Doctor behind that game probably dug up his reserve of Sonic fanfiction for that game, and if Enterbrain gave us slightly better software then anyone could have made that game. But let's just agree to disagree.
Yes, and this is a lot. KOTOR is part of an "official" canon because it is appraised by LucasArts, which is a subsidiary of LucasFilm. People ACTUALLY INVOLVED with the group that created the Star Wars films are involved with putting out KOTOR. Chris Avellone is not just some random dude on the street and KOTOR is not merely the result of him, nor is Star Wars merely the result of George Lucas.
The person most tied to being the "creator" or a film is the director (I'm a occasional filmmaker myself) and yes, George Lucas "created" Star Wars. But did you know George Lucas only directed one out of three of the original Star Wars films? Two different other guys directed V and VI. Would you call those "fanmovies?" I don't think so.
We can agree to disagree if you can't defend your point anymore (lol you give up) but honestly, you just sound like you're providing excuses for the fact that you are making a fangame.
Since you called me out, I'm going to continue arguing. The reason I said 'agree to disagree' is because internet back and forth quote analysing makes me very tired.
You said that fangames suck because they 'lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work'. KOTOR 2 is NOT George Lucas's vision, it is Chris Avellone's/Obsidian's vision of the Star Wars universe and has Chris Avellone's 'touch.' It is Avellone writing a Star Wars fanfic Lucas may have kept an eye on it to make sure no Force Samurai were involved but he *did not create it* Also, Avellone *happens* to be one of the best writers in the business. I'm sure there are writers just as good as...well, I'm sure there are writers just as good as Hironobu Sakaguchi that don't work for a video game company. Heck, the KOTOR stuff is *better* than George Lucas's Episode I.
What you fail to realise is that aside from the obvious, there are no particular design qualities that a fan game must have. A fan game is only as good as the person making it, and you cannot seem to snap out of 'lol fangames' and separate what they *actually* are (Games based on existing games/works/whatever), and what they have come to be in the amateur game-making scene. You seem to be suggesting that if I dunno, George R R Martin picked up RPG Maker one day and made a Final Fantasy game, it wouldn't be a 'good game' because it hasn't received the title of officialdom from Square Enix, which is just ridiculous. It'd still be a fangame.
And what about mods? Now Square-Enix would never do this, but Bioware/Valve have recruited people on the basis that they've made derivative works. That is to me, acknowledging that some random person can do justice to the game they're basing their fangame on if they're good enough.
Shinan
4314
No. It is NOT a fangame if it's officially authorized. That's sort of the whole idea about fanworks that it isn't officially authorized. The second you get sanctioning from an author or corporation or whatever it ceases to be a fanwork and becomes... official.
There are hundreds and hundreds of superhero comic authors out there. Hundreds of people have taken a stab at interpreting Batman. Those interpretations you see in comic book stores. They're not fanfiction. The interpretations you can find at some guy's home page is.
It's quite a simple definition really.
Of course in the end this says nothing of the quality of the work. An officially sanctioned batman comic may be a lot worse than the fancreated batman comic.
Though I guess it is true that the further away from "the personal touch of the creator" a work goes the worse it usually gets (see Fallout, X-com, Leisure Suit Larry). Until it's so far away that there's really no canon anymore and people can do whatever they like with it and then it can go anywhere. (See The Dark Knight Returns and Superman: Red Son and all kinds of weird reboot things they do in comics)
There are hundreds and hundreds of superhero comic authors out there. Hundreds of people have taken a stab at interpreting Batman. Those interpretations you see in comic book stores. They're not fanfiction. The interpretations you can find at some guy's home page is.
It's quite a simple definition really.
Of course in the end this says nothing of the quality of the work. An officially sanctioned batman comic may be a lot worse than the fancreated batman comic.
Though I guess it is true that the further away from "the personal touch of the creator" a work goes the worse it usually gets (see Fallout, X-com, Leisure Suit Larry). Until it's so far away that there's really no canon anymore and people can do whatever they like with it and then it can go anywhere. (See The Dark Knight Returns and Superman: Red Son and all kinds of weird reboot things they do in comics)
post=134800
No. It is NOT a fangame if it's officially authorized. That's sort of the whole idea about fanworks that it isn't officially authorized. The second you get sanctioning from an author or corporation or whatever it ceases to be a fanwork and becomes... official.
Are you replying to me? You do know that I'm saying the exact same thing: That the factor that distinguishes a fanwork from official work is the sanctioning from the original creator. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the product.
Which leads to this...
Of course in the end this says nothing of the quality of the work. An officially sanctioned batman comic may be a lot worse than the fancreated batman comic.
And a good fancreated Batman comic may not 'miss the point' anymore than the original work does. The Nu-Sonic series is essentially what you get when a shitty fanfic author takes the helm.
This is not difficult to understand. The comic thing is also a good example, but regardless of whether there 'is really no canon anymore' there are still conventions that make Batman Begins/TDK a BATMAN movie.
Shinan
4314
Yeah the convention that makes it Batman. is that it has a guy called Batman in it. Just look at all the DC or Warner Brothers sanctioned Batman stuff there is. The only real similarity between Adam West Batman and Frank Miller Batman is that there's a guy that calls himself Batman in it.
Batman's been with us for so long that there's essentially officially sanctioned postmodern batmans by the dozen.
Batman's been with us for so long that there's essentially officially sanctioned postmodern batmans by the dozen.
I think I see what Weasel Eliot is trying to say. The difference between a fan work and an official work is authorized sanction. However, what FUNDAMENTAL quality does officially sanctioned 'fan work' have that regular fancreated works don't when it comes to how ENJOYABLE something is?
Let's say, for example you're a Star Wars fan. And you play two Star Wars video games, Star Wars 1 and Star Wars 2 (example names) unknown of who was responsible creating it. You enjoyed Star Wars 1 IMMENSELY and you think its one of your favorite games ever, however you didn't like Star Wars 2 at all and you thought it was really bad.
Later on, you find out that Star Wars 1 was a complete fan work, and you find out that Star Wars 2 was completely official, licensced, Lucas Works, the whole shebang. Now that you know this about both games, are you going to RETROACTIVELY change your opinion and go "WAIT NO STAR WARS 1 WASN'T REALLY THAT FUN IT WAS A FANGAME UHHH STAR WARS 2 IS PROBABLY BETTER THAN I REMBERED"
Think about it.
Let's say, for example you're a Star Wars fan. And you play two Star Wars video games, Star Wars 1 and Star Wars 2 (example names) unknown of who was responsible creating it. You enjoyed Star Wars 1 IMMENSELY and you think its one of your favorite games ever, however you didn't like Star Wars 2 at all and you thought it was really bad.
Later on, you find out that Star Wars 1 was a complete fan work, and you find out that Star Wars 2 was completely official, licensced, Lucas Works, the whole shebang. Now that you know this about both games, are you going to RETROACTIVELY change your opinion and go "WAIT NO STAR WARS 1 WASN'T REALLY THAT FUN IT WAS A FANGAME UHHH STAR WARS 2 IS PROBABLY BETTER THAN I REMBERED"
Think about it.
AznChipmunk
4613
post=134795
You said that fangames suck because they 'lose the personal touch of a creator upon his work'. KOTOR 2 is NOT George Lucas's vision, it is Chris Avellone's/Obsidian's vision of the Star Wars universe and has Chris Avellone's 'touch.' It is Avellone writing a Star Wars fanfic Lucas may have kept an eye on it to make sure no Force Samurai were involved but he *did not create it* Also, Avellone *happens* to be one of the best writers in the business. I'm sure there are writers just as good as...well, I'm sure there are writers just as good as Hironobu Sakaguchi that don't work for a video game company. Heck, the KOTOR stuff is *better* than George Lucas's Episode I.
The whole part with George Lucas being involved makes a whole world of difference. Like I pointed out and you seemed to ignore, two of the original three Star Wars trilogy films were not directed by George Lucas. Hell, he did not even write the screenplay for Episode V. This is not a "fan film" because it is authorized sanction.
Saying KOTOR is like a fanfic is the same as calling two-thirds of the more popular half of the trilogy fanfics.
So 66% of the original official canon is just some dudes making a fanfic/film that has been "canonized" by george Lucas?
post=134831
I think I see what Weasel Eliot is trying to say. The difference between a fan work and an official work is authorized sanction. However, what FUNDAMENTAL quality does officially sanctioned 'fan work' have that regular fancreated works don't when it comes to how ENJOYABLE something is?
Let's say, for example you're a Star Wars fan. And you play two Star Wars video games, Star Wars 1 and Star Wars 2 (example names) unknown of who was responsible creating it. You enjoyed Star Wars 1 IMMENSELY and you think its one of your favorite games ever, however you didn't like Star Wars 2 at all and you thought it was really bad.
Later on, you find out that Star Wars 1 was a complete fan work, and you find out that Star Wars 2 was completely official, licensced, Lucas Works, the whole shebang. Now that you know this about both games, are you going to RETROACTIVELY change your opinion and go "WAIT NO STAR WARS 1 WASN'T REALLY THAT FUN IT WAS A FANGAME UHHH STAR WARS 2 IS PROBABLY BETTER THAN I REMBERED"
I am seeing what he's trying to say, I just disagree. I did say that fangames are not necessarily worse in my post 2 pages back (the first one where I started disagreeing.) Fangames are not automatically worse or better.
post=134803Yes it does. While it is not inherently better, you are not taking into account the fact that the people who create the official work have "authorized sanction" because they know what they are doing and can produce quality. I'm not saying it's not possible to make a good fangame, as I stated in my first argument post, fangames are not necessarily any worse but there is like a 80% chance they just suck, because there are many flaws inherent in making a fangame.
Are you replying to me? You do know that I'm saying the exact same thing: That the factor that distinguishes a fanwork from official work is the sanctioning from the original creator. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the product.
Aznchipmunk
Yes it does. While it is not inherently better, you are not taking into account the fact that the people who create the official work have "authorized sanction" because they know what they are doing and can produce quality. I'm not saying it's not possible to make a good fangame, as I stated in my first argument post, fangames are not necessarily any worse but there is like a 80% chance they just suck, because there are many flaws inherent in making a fangame.
post=134857
Official sanctioning is quality control.
Quality control that is not always effective. I can give you a list of series/franchises that have been placed into new hands and suffered for it. In the case of the Star Wars trilogy, I did not call it fanfiction because it is obviously NOT, but if you take away the negative connotations of 13 year old fanboy Marysue insertation fic, fanfiction is merely using someone else's property that has not received official sanctioning. That is all. Yes, it's more likely to suck if it's a fangame because most fangamemakers are 'a certain way', but 99 per cent of everything sucks ANYWAY. 'Don't make a fangame because it will suck' is silly, because if that's the case, whatever the person creates will most likely suck. As for the idea that you could be spending time making something original instead, why do you care? As long as the game is good in the end that's all that matters.
George Lucas obviously had a good chunk of involvement in Star Wars V/VI even if he didn't direct them, but if a bunch of people were in a room making up Star Wars-related stuff without his direct input, the process is no different to a fanfiction writer.
George Lucas's Friends:
I'm going to make a sequel to Star Wars in which a Jedi is on the run. Her name is Partha and she meets a one legged Wookie during her adventures.
George Lucas:
Okay, I agree! You receive my blessing!
= official work
Random Person:
I'm going to make a sequel to Star Wars in which a Jedi is on the run. Her name is Partha and she meets a one legged Wookie during her adventures.
George Lucas:
Dear Thomas Bilby , thank you for your submission. Due to the high volume of submissions, we may not always be able to issue replies to every entrant. Yours sincerely, Lucasarts
= fanfic
It seems as if you want me to say 'ha ha, Star Wars V/VI is fanfiction!' so you can all laugh at what a ridiculous idea this is. I am not saying that, because they are obviously not fan movies. I'm directly responding to your 'fangames lack the personal touch of the creator' comment because you make it seem as if fangames are doomed because of that, when if you look at the number of 'official' works out there with minimal involvement from the creator, that's clearly not true.
Shinan
4314
post=134864
'Don't make a fangame because it will suck'
I think it's mostly a case of "Don't play a fangame because it will suck"
And like so many other general rules like this it's a good one to live by even though you'll come across an exception or two on the road of life.
This discussion's becoming more idiotic with every post.
Listen, Weasel, I get that you like fangames and are working on one. That's fine, game making is a hobby, if that's what pleases you then go ahead, no one should be telling you how to spend your spare time.
But why do you persist in trying to persuade everyone that fangames are God's gift to humanity? If others don't like fangames then that's fine too, it's their choice just as yours is to like them. It's not like you're going to change anyone's mind on the Internet, man. It doesn't work like that.
'Cause, you know, you're trying to come up with a definition of fangame that is so detached from what's commonly been accepted that it's just silly. The main difference between a fangame and an official game (movie/book/whatever) is that fangames are made by amateurs with no or very limited budget, whereas official works do have a budget; furthermore, the producer of such game has paid for the rights to use the exclusive material that belongs (usually) to the original author/company. SO, if Lucas sells Star Wars right to a company that creates a manga version of Star Wars, then it's an official product and not a fangame. Whether the original creator had any direct input does not matter (I mean, is the original writer of Star Trek even still alive?); furthermore, whether it'll come to be regarded as canon is a different matter altogether.
The reason why so many dislike fangames is because they're made (to reiterate) by amateurs and their quality is very, very low compared to games with actual budget (= team of pros). With fangames you have something to compare them to, and the fangame will always pale in comparison to the original. Original games are in a better position, because they're not based on any existing work in particular.
Listen, Weasel, I get that you like fangames and are working on one. That's fine, game making is a hobby, if that's what pleases you then go ahead, no one should be telling you how to spend your spare time.
But why do you persist in trying to persuade everyone that fangames are God's gift to humanity? If others don't like fangames then that's fine too, it's their choice just as yours is to like them. It's not like you're going to change anyone's mind on the Internet, man. It doesn't work like that.
'Cause, you know, you're trying to come up with a definition of fangame that is so detached from what's commonly been accepted that it's just silly. The main difference between a fangame and an official game (movie/book/whatever) is that fangames are made by amateurs with no or very limited budget, whereas official works do have a budget; furthermore, the producer of such game has paid for the rights to use the exclusive material that belongs (usually) to the original author/company. SO, if Lucas sells Star Wars right to a company that creates a manga version of Star Wars, then it's an official product and not a fangame. Whether the original creator had any direct input does not matter (I mean, is the original writer of Star Trek even still alive?); furthermore, whether it'll come to be regarded as canon is a different matter altogether.
The reason why so many dislike fangames is because they're made (to reiterate) by amateurs and their quality is very, very low compared to games with actual budget (= team of pros). With fangames you have something to compare them to, and the fangame will always pale in comparison to the original. Original games are in a better position, because they're not based on any existing work in particular.
This discussion's becoming more idiotic with every post.
To be honest DE, your one liners weren't helping.
Sure, fan games aren't inherently bad, but there's a certain stigma attached to them. Many RM* developers' first game is a fangame because they haven't yet had an interesting idea of their own. As a result of that, most people that play RM games tend to see a fangame and dismiss it as a newbie's first game and ignore it, as first games always suck.
No one's stopping you from making a fangame if that's what you want to do. Sure, no one will play it, but nothing's stopping you from making it.
No one's stopping you from making a fangame if that's what you want to do. Sure, no one will play it, but nothing's stopping you from making it.
