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WHY CAN'T I JUST POISON HIM A LITTLE BIT!?
Posts
Sailerius
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Closepost=141551
The thing about status effects is that a lot of them are inherently "instant win". If you paralyze an enemy, it can no longer do anything at all. If you make it do half damage, or take double damage, you can easily overpower it. If you poison it, you win 10 rounds later even if you do nothing but heal and defend for the rest of the battle. Minor debuffs to enemy stats do not give you an "instant win" mechanic, and therefore should be no problem to use against bosses - they are therefore outside the scope of this debate.
That's assuming that your bosses aren't designed around the assumption that the players will use status effects like that on them. You're suggesting that you tone down or outright disable status effects against bosses to account for poor design--that is, that you didn't take into account from the beginning that bosses might be made too easy by the use of status effects.
In Vacant Sky, every status effect (positive or negative) is just as effective against any enemy or ally in the game. However, in general, party members with a large diversity of status ailments are also pretty poor at dealing damage, so bringing them into battle means sacrificing one of your heavy damage dealers or tanks. Some bosses are even made to be very challenging if you don't employ certain status effects--such as having a helper NPC with extremely powerful heal spells that can't easily be taken down without paralyzing it.
Yeah, Sai brings up a good point: even if the main boss is fairly immune to states, its minions - which could be formidable in their own right - could still be susceptible.
This just ties into the "secret reward lies" that is the Craze game design. Next topic I make, maybe, will be about th -
This just ties into the "secret reward lies" that is the Craze game design. Next topic I make, maybe, will be about th -
Kaempfer
1932
Uh, Sailerius, did you read the rest of his post? He specifically said that if the boss is still difficult after being debuffed (which I use as a catch-all for bad things because that is how I learned the term + it is shorter than typing status effect, although I use both constantly and interchangably because I am a rebel!) then obviously that boss is next to impossible without the status effects, at which point you are forcing the player to use status effects.
To be honest, you should never force the player to use a specific tactic. A more limited range of tactics or a different mix of tactics, yes, but the second a boss because immune to everything but fire you might as well be watching the computer fight the battle for you (Fire, Fire, Fire, Ether, Fire, Fire, Heal, Fire, Fire YOU WIN).
Bosses shouldn't be impossible without status effects. The status effect should help just as much in a boss battle as it does in a regular battle, or perhaps more since the cost ratio goes up. If I poison the boss and he hates poison, he should get that much easier and make all my other skills easier to pull off. If I don't poison him, I should still be able to win. I should just have a few more broken bones and big ol' chest wounds, and maybe a few more potions to go around. Enemies should be about figuring out how to win, not EXACTLY WHAT THEIR PINPOINT WEAKNESS IS AND THEN EXPLOIT THAT WEAKNESS UNTIL THEY ARE DEAD because that just isn't fun. Like I said, you might as well turn on autoplay if that is your entire battle engine.
To be honest, you should never force the player to use a specific tactic. A more limited range of tactics or a different mix of tactics, yes, but the second a boss because immune to everything but fire you might as well be watching the computer fight the battle for you (Fire, Fire, Fire, Ether, Fire, Fire, Heal, Fire, Fire YOU WIN).
Bosses shouldn't be impossible without status effects. The status effect should help just as much in a boss battle as it does in a regular battle, or perhaps more since the cost ratio goes up. If I poison the boss and he hates poison, he should get that much easier and make all my other skills easier to pull off. If I don't poison him, I should still be able to win. I should just have a few more broken bones and big ol' chest wounds, and maybe a few more potions to go around. Enemies should be about figuring out how to win, not EXACTLY WHAT THEIR PINPOINT WEAKNESS IS AND THEN EXPLOIT THAT WEAKNESS UNTIL THEY ARE DEAD because that just isn't fun. Like I said, you might as well turn on autoplay if that is your entire battle engine.
post=141568
Enemies should be about figuring out how to win, not EXACTLY WHAT THEIR PINPOINT WEAKNESS IS AND THEN EXPLOIT THAT WEAKNESS UNTIL THEY ARE DEAD because that just isn't fun. Like I said, you might as well turn on autoplay if that is your entire battle engine.
You are going to love Edifice and hate boss Breaking. (In order to start doing damage to a boss, you have to either 1) Break its Barrier with a specific action/action type or 2) waste turns doing ten one-damage normal attacks to only remove its Barrier (whereas Breaking lowers the bosses' stats)).
I mean "specific" as in "USE THIS EXACT ITEM ON IT." Hooray for hints and clues!
This ties in to the topic because sometimes you have to inflict a state on the boss and bosses are usually fine with being inflicted with stuff. Charm is the exception; it's way too overpowered on four-turn monstrosities when damage doesn't end the effect! Oh, and Toxins/Manaburn (HP degens) are stat-based like normal damage, so that's just like doing an additional attack each round.
Heh. In Edifice, the starting skill for Chaos characters is Seduction - their main tactic is "make stuff hit its allies gogogo." And since almost every enemy has an 80% success rate for incoming states...!
Rowan
131
post=141500
askfnlsadkfnsdalnf la roooooowwwwwwaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnn
Status effect = Poison, sleep, stun, etc.
Debuff = lowered stat
Well, if you put it that way, I have no status effects in my game. Just a ****load of buffs/debuffs. :P
Antilurker77
871
IMO, the best way to handle status effects with bosses is to still allow them to work, but make them have a reduced effect. For example, an ability that reduced ATK by 50% on a normal enemy. would reduce ATK by 10% on a boss. Or poison doing 2% damage instead of 10%. This way statuses still have an importance in bosses without being overpowered.
LightningLord2
230
I wanna try how to deal with issues with status:
Problem: Poison + Heal-Stall kills the boss easily.
Solution: Make the boss turn healing into damage. Or make Poison not percentage-based, or the boss could get an attack/intelligence buff somehow to break your stall.
Problem: Normal enemies are too weak to make status viable.
Solution: Make them stronger, duh.
Problem: The boss is too weak while statused/debuffed.
Solution: Try to give him something he can do while affected (e.g. a physical attacker boss could keep defending while his attack is lowered, or a silenced mage boss could throw item bombs at you). Sometimes, though, you have no other choice than to give the boss high resistance/immunity to that status.
Problem: Regular attacks are more useful than anything else.
Solution: Change the normal attack damage into a lower value.
Problem: Poison + Heal-Stall kills the boss easily.
Solution: Make the boss turn healing into damage. Or make Poison not percentage-based, or the boss could get an attack/intelligence buff somehow to break your stall.
Problem: Normal enemies are too weak to make status viable.
Solution: Make them stronger, duh.
Problem: The boss is too weak while statused/debuffed.
Solution: Try to give him something he can do while affected (e.g. a physical attacker boss could keep defending while his attack is lowered, or a silenced mage boss could throw item bombs at you). Sometimes, though, you have no other choice than to give the boss high resistance/immunity to that status.
Problem: Regular attacks are more useful than anything else.
Solution: Change the normal attack damage into a lower value.
post=142214
...Problem: Regular attacks are more useful than anything else.
Solution: Change the normal attack damage into a lower value.
My game, Crimson Sky, did this: basically, in the second dungeon (after the opening dungeon) and in the third dungeon, most enemies went down in anywhere from 3 to 4 hits from the highest physical-attacking character you had at the time (Haos). Some of those same enemies would go down in 1 or 2 hits with a skill or magic spell (either from Haos or Violet).
Hell, one enemy was strong against physical attacks so you'd have to had been
Y'know, in my previous games (and the one currently in progress), I did make bosses immune to status problems. My minibosses have always been vulnerable, though with a greatly reduced chance of being afflicted. But after seeing this thread, I decided: "What the heck! Bosses aren't THAT special!"
So I'm making certain status problems work against bosses this time. They'll still be immune to tide-turners like Sleep and Confuse, but debuffs, poison, and short-lived debilitations will all be fair game. That should improve things a little, I think.
So I'm making certain status problems work against bosses this time. They'll still be immune to tide-turners like Sleep and Confuse, but debuffs, poison, and short-lived debilitations will all be fair game. That should improve things a little, I think.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Giving bosses the ability to cast Esuna is a nice excuse to make them vulnerable to statuses. It still doesn't solve the problem of, say, paralyze or sleep, though. You pretty much have to make the boss be at least heavily resistant to that kind of thing, if not immune.
To say nothing of instant death spells. If you think that statuses should be usable in every battle, what do you think about instant death spells? What about fire spells, should those be usable in every battle?
Really, there's no good reason for every skill to be equally useful in every battle. We have elements for a reason. The player is given a variety of abilities. Making enemies have different vulnerabilities gives the player reasons to use different strategies in different battles. If the player can do the same thing in every battle, the game quickly gets old. It is useful to lock players out of certain things to add challenge. Though this can certainly go too far and make battles be ultra-boring if you lock them out of too much.
To say nothing of instant death spells. If you think that statuses should be usable in every battle, what do you think about instant death spells? What about fire spells, should those be usable in every battle?
Really, there's no good reason for every skill to be equally useful in every battle. We have elements for a reason. The player is given a variety of abilities. Making enemies have different vulnerabilities gives the player reasons to use different strategies in different battles. If the player can do the same thing in every battle, the game quickly gets old. It is useful to lock players out of certain things to add challenge. Though this can certainly go too far and make battles be ultra-boring if you lock them out of too much.
I agree with LockeZ; certain classes/characters are generally geared toward "bosskilling" or "random wiping."
Examples:
FFX-2: The Gun Mage dressphere is, uh, a blue mage with a gun. It's made to target specific enemy types (flan, drake, etc.) - so until you build up its blue magic arsenal, it's fairly useless against bosses.
Persona 4: Naoto gets mass instant-death skills and mass non-elemental magic. She's terrific against normal enemies, but only "meh" against bosses.
FFIV: Tellah is an utter weakling against random encounters, what with his limited MP and constantly-lowering physical stats. Bring up him against a boss, however, and he will pound it into the ground.
And then there's "every sub-class in Xenosaga 3 has a specific role" but I have work to do so I won't start beating that off. ::D
Examples:
FFX-2: The Gun Mage dressphere is, uh, a blue mage with a gun. It's made to target specific enemy types (flan, drake, etc.) - so until you build up its blue magic arsenal, it's fairly useless against bosses.
Persona 4: Naoto gets mass instant-death skills and mass non-elemental magic. She's terrific against normal enemies, but only "meh" against bosses.
FFIV: Tellah is an utter weakling against random encounters, what with his limited MP and constantly-lowering physical stats. Bring up him against a boss, however, and he will pound it into the ground.
And then there's "every sub-class in Xenosaga 3 has a specific role" but I have work to do so I won't start beating that off. ::D
LightningLord2
230
I think normal encounters should be more challenging to make status and stat changers more viable - enemies at the power level of a cardboard box are sure best dealt with just attacking, but beefy mooks with an attack buff that allows them to kill your weaker members in one hit should be a viable target for eg. insta-kill. Standard enemies need just as much attention of the designers as bosses.
People get caught in the trap of thinking monsters need to be getting exponentially stronger in every area and that all monsters in an area should be equivalent strength. There's nothing wrong with having a "Breather" area where encounters are weak, or having a wave of weak monsters hang out in a high level area. I generally feel there should be a mix of encounter strengths in any given area: weaker enemies you can mow down with impunity, and stronger enemies that might require some thought to defeat (thus making status effects a viable option instead of worthless because the monster will die on the next hit anyway.)
post=142741
People get caught in the trap of thinking monsters need to be getting exponentially stronger in every area and that all monsters in an area should be equivalent strength. There's nothing wrong with having a "Breather" area where encounters are weak, or having a wave of weak monsters hang out in a high level area. I generally feel there should be a mix of encounter strengths in any given area: weaker enemies you can mow down with impunity, and stronger enemies that might require some thought to defeat (thus making status effects a viable option instead of worthless because the monster will die on the next hit anyway.)
This, absolutely.
It's pretty easy to tire out a player if you don't do this. Give them the difficult fortress level, but also have the easy forest path to get to the next town. (Also have difficulty levels).
Neophyte
155
post=142741
People get caught in the trap of thinking monsters need to be getting exponentially stronger in every area and that all monsters in an area should be equivalent strength. There's nothing wrong with having a "Breather" area where encounters are weak, or having a wave of weak monsters hang out in a high level area.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JimmyLarsen/20100524/5219/Difficulty_Curves.php
Stupid graph names!
Drakonais
2787
When I'm getting destroyed in a high-level area, it's a relief to stumble upon a weak, lone enemy in an occasional random encounter. Perfect way to give the player some time to breathe. I try to incorporate this fairly often.
Anaryu
8848
Something fun I did in a game that I plan to use for future ones too:
1. Debuffs/States are stackable, but the more you have of the same, the faster they wear off.
Example:
* One "Stun" effect lasts 20 rounds
* A second "Stun" effect makes the first and this Stun go down at 2 rounds per round instead of one, so effectively 10 rounds each.
* A third "Stun" makes each go down by 3 rounds per round.
* As soon as one wears off the other slow back to a normal rate.
This works well as a way to temporarily debuff bosses into oblivion and makes it so you don't spam powerful status effects since having them 2x as asleep is no good, but lets you try to continue the effect by putting another up at the end of the first.
2. A "State" state
* Enemies have an elemental "state" for Status Effects; that's a 0 - 6 rating.
* All status effects and debuffs on an enemy go down at 1 + (State state) rounds per round. ie. a top rating means they'd eat up 7 rounds of a status effect or debuff each turn.
Bosses eat the status effects faster, but are not immune to them (since I don't use an instant-death effect.) This works well since usually you have to focus on a boss anyway, so managing their status effects/debuffs is more effective.
Also makes a character who specializes in debuffs/status effects powerful instead of useless, and status effects/debuffs as secondary effects to damage worthwhile.
3. Poison-type damage based on value instead of %
* By keeping enemy HP values within a certain balance range you can use pure damage instead of % so poison works on a boss.
* A high HP enemy is just more powerful against poison and boasts another weakness instead (like a very low status recovery rate)
Lots of MMOs do this (maybe newer games too?) - instead of your Warlock Curses causing % damage to enemies, they cause static damage over time like a normal attack. This makes them a new type of attack certain classes can use, but doesn't unbalance the gameplay or cause bosses to be immune all the time to keep it challenging.
(Imagine if lots of boss/elite World of Warcraft enemies were immune to DoTs!)
4. Status Effects and Debuffs almost always auto-hit but depend on attack to hit
* Most status effects or debuffs have a 100% hit rate
* The status/debuff only kicks in if the attack hits
1. Debuffs/States are stackable, but the more you have of the same, the faster they wear off.
Example:
* One "Stun" effect lasts 20 rounds
* A second "Stun" effect makes the first and this Stun go down at 2 rounds per round instead of one, so effectively 10 rounds each.
* A third "Stun" makes each go down by 3 rounds per round.
* As soon as one wears off the other slow back to a normal rate.
This works well as a way to temporarily debuff bosses into oblivion and makes it so you don't spam powerful status effects since having them 2x as asleep is no good, but lets you try to continue the effect by putting another up at the end of the first.
2. A "State" state
* Enemies have an elemental "state" for Status Effects; that's a 0 - 6 rating.
* All status effects and debuffs on an enemy go down at 1 + (State state) rounds per round. ie. a top rating means they'd eat up 7 rounds of a status effect or debuff each turn.
Bosses eat the status effects faster, but are not immune to them (since I don't use an instant-death effect.) This works well since usually you have to focus on a boss anyway, so managing their status effects/debuffs is more effective.
Also makes a character who specializes in debuffs/status effects powerful instead of useless, and status effects/debuffs as secondary effects to damage worthwhile.
3. Poison-type damage based on value instead of %
* By keeping enemy HP values within a certain balance range you can use pure damage instead of % so poison works on a boss.
* A high HP enemy is just more powerful against poison and boasts another weakness instead (like a very low status recovery rate)
Lots of MMOs do this (maybe newer games too?) - instead of your Warlock Curses causing % damage to enemies, they cause static damage over time like a normal attack. This makes them a new type of attack certain classes can use, but doesn't unbalance the gameplay or cause bosses to be immune all the time to keep it challenging.
(Imagine if lots of boss/elite World of Warcraft enemies were immune to DoTs!)
4. Status Effects and Debuffs almost always auto-hit but depend on attack to hit
* Most status effects or debuffs have a 100% hit rate
* The status/debuff only kicks in if the attack hits
meavor
0
I like some of the idea's Anaryu brought up.
In a game I'm working on status effects work like so
All status effects work based on an enemies Race, Affinity and Resistances. In this way certain Races have immunities (Machine=NoPoison) and weakness(Machine=YesRust)
All Humanoid and beast enemies can be poisoned, but some (mostly bosses) enemies have ways of dealing with it.Humanoid bosses can use Cure or Healing items, and beasts can find wild herbs. If you can keep a combo up you can prevent the enemies from healing. Poison also does a fixed amount based on the levels and Resistances for both Enemies and Players.
Their are only 2 Instant death skills, Perfect Assassination and Doom Clock. No enemies are immune to them including Bosses. PA works by you getting close to an enemy without it noticing you and charging a spell for 15 Seconds. While DC can only be used when you have a certain item, has a 12 sec cast time (per hour on the clock) and a 10% accuracy no matter what. PA can never be used against a boss as bosses always no of you presence and DC is to risky for the class that learns it. The class is frail and the you can only use one "Certain Item" per battle.
I believe status effects should generally be balanced and changed up depending on the game itself, and the Game maker's tastes. I personally added them just to giver weaker classes like thieves an alternative to regular combat since they cant cast spells.
Thief poisons boss and hides/dodges until it wares off or boss cures, repeat till Victory!
In a game I'm working on status effects work like so
All status effects work based on an enemies Race, Affinity and Resistances. In this way certain Races have immunities (Machine=NoPoison) and weakness(Machine=YesRust)
All Humanoid and beast enemies can be poisoned, but some (mostly bosses) enemies have ways of dealing with it.Humanoid bosses can use Cure or Healing items, and beasts can find wild herbs. If you can keep a combo up you can prevent the enemies from healing. Poison also does a fixed amount based on the levels and Resistances for both Enemies and Players.
Their are only 2 Instant death skills, Perfect Assassination and Doom Clock. No enemies are immune to them including Bosses. PA works by you getting close to an enemy without it noticing you and charging a spell for 15 Seconds. While DC can only be used when you have a certain item, has a 12 sec cast time (per hour on the clock) and a 10% accuracy no matter what. PA can never be used against a boss as bosses always no of you presence and DC is to risky for the class that learns it. The class is frail and the you can only use one "Certain Item" per battle.
I believe status effects should generally be balanced and changed up depending on the game itself, and the Game maker's tastes. I personally added them just to giver weaker classes like thieves an alternative to regular combat since they cant cast spells.
Thief poisons boss and hides/dodges until it wares off or boss cures, repeat till Victory!
