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DISCUSSION ISN'T DRAMA.
Posts
Solitayre
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CloseIt seems like a lot of reviews lately (including not a few of my own) have been generating a large number of comments. And there seems to be a stigma surrounding this that is absolutely ridiculous. Any review or forum thread in which discussion or arguing occurs is invariably labeled as "drama." Even the four pages of (mostly) civil discussion on my To Arms! review was labeled in the latest Snews as a "drama-storm," and that this was a sad thing to have happen in a review.
I completely disagree. Discussion should never be stigmatized. It should be encouraged. Especially considering the reams upon reams of reviews on the site that pass completely without comment from anyone, even often including the developers of the game themselves. The same often occurs for articles, blogs, almost everything on the site. Game development doesn't occur in a vacuum. It occurs with discussion, conversation, criticism, and often with input from others. Yet I see these kinds of discussions frowned upon or lamented. Is it a bad thing to have people talking about a game on a site about game development?
This kind of discussion should happen far more often. Never be afraid to voice your opinion or want to discuss something out of a fear of creating "drama." This creates a sea of sterile games that will never improve because this site cultivates an atmosphere that it is bad to ever disagree with someone. In my opinion, this is the worst thing that could ever happen here.
Go forth and discuss many more games.
This has been Solitayre with your weekly awareness raising rant. Thank you for reading.
I completely disagree. Discussion should never be stigmatized. It should be encouraged. Especially considering the reams upon reams of reviews on the site that pass completely without comment from anyone, even often including the developers of the game themselves. The same often occurs for articles, blogs, almost everything on the site. Game development doesn't occur in a vacuum. It occurs with discussion, conversation, criticism, and often with input from others. Yet I see these kinds of discussions frowned upon or lamented. Is it a bad thing to have people talking about a game on a site about game development?
This kind of discussion should happen far more often. Never be afraid to voice your opinion or want to discuss something out of a fear of creating "drama." This creates a sea of sterile games that will never improve because this site cultivates an atmosphere that it is bad to ever disagree with someone. In my opinion, this is the worst thing that could ever happen here.
Go forth and discuss many more games.
This has been Solitayre with your weekly awareness raising rant. Thank you for reading.
WolfCoder
3554
I do not think this community has a shortage of people afraid to give an honest opinion of something.
solitare is a young mog
also the drama was more due to legion's existence being ridiculous than the review itself
also the drama was more due to legion's existence being ridiculous than the review itself
AznChipmunk
4613
post=149489
Whoa back in the day this topic totally sounds like something I'd make.
Also Ciel is totally right.
I totally remember those days.
Behold RMN, where a legitimate concern leads to a stream of one-liners. After just one reply.
I feel the same as you, Solitayre. Every time someone posts a critique on a project, they get an avalanche of shit responses such as "RM is serious business!!1", "these are rm games no one cares about", "enough with the drama", and so on. It's like RMN is nothing more than a circlejerk, just without the jerking part. Many users never participate in discussions unless there's an opportunity to post some "clever" one-liners; mostly disillusioned vets indulge in such behavior (hello, TFT! hello, Karsuman!).
RMN is no longer about discussing games and improving oneself; now it's about posting your game and getting no feedback. I blame the game pages. They were supposed to move game discussions from the forums to the front page, but all it did was to quell any feedback on game mechanics, story, and any other part of game design. Pretty much the only thing people post on game pages is their opinion of finished games, not on games in progress. Back when creating a topic for your game on the forums was allowed, people got and posted more feedback on the games in progress. I guess that's why some people dislike the reviews in which reviewers continuously point out ways to improve the game in question, instead of evaluating the game as it is.
In short - RMN as a community sucks for anyone who is interested in creating a tight game and improve as a developer, and takes their hobby seriously. Which I guess is dumb, because "RM is serious business, lol!!", you know!
I feel the same as you, Solitayre. Every time someone posts a critique on a project, they get an avalanche of shit responses such as "RM is serious business!!1", "these are rm games no one cares about", "enough with the drama", and so on. It's like RMN is nothing more than a circlejerk, just without the jerking part. Many users never participate in discussions unless there's an opportunity to post some "clever" one-liners; mostly disillusioned vets indulge in such behavior (hello, TFT! hello, Karsuman!).
RMN is no longer about discussing games and improving oneself; now it's about posting your game and getting no feedback. I blame the game pages. They were supposed to move game discussions from the forums to the front page, but all it did was to quell any feedback on game mechanics, story, and any other part of game design. Pretty much the only thing people post on game pages is their opinion of finished games, not on games in progress. Back when creating a topic for your game on the forums was allowed, people got and posted more feedback on the games in progress. I guess that's why some people dislike the reviews in which reviewers continuously point out ways to improve the game in question, instead of evaluating the game as it is.
In short - RMN as a community sucks for anyone who is interested in creating a tight game and improve as a developer, and takes their hobby seriously. Which I guess is dumb, because "RM is serious business, lol!!", you know!
Neophyte
155
That's a problem with developers, not game pages. Feld's game creates tons of feedback (check his blogs), there just has to be a drive in the discussion and not just "Hey progress is good, here is xyz, bye!". People are not taking full advantage of what a game page and blog is for. I've seen lots of games improve based on feedback in game pages. Less than 24 hours ago I posted on the Evania game page about something that could be improved on and my suggestion has already been implemented. So I wouldn't throw all game pages under the same bus. It would be nice if they were more active in other areas of the site but I dunno, maybe they are just here for game hosting.
Anyway, games are fun! Do not forget this my friends...
Anyway, games are fun! Do not forget this my friends...
Darken
3952
I exchange a lot of feedback with several people that are part of the RMN community (at the least, I met them on #RMN). Granted a lot of it is behind the scenes, but we throw each other random screenshots/graphics/mini demos and stuff using RMN's neat little locker for quick access (the private option is nifty). Secretive as it is, you can't blame us for wanting to quietly work on our games and not drum up too much hype. Anyway, the point is not everything has to be recorded and analyzed on a public forum database thing. There are many people here who are worried this community is going to die or something if we don't get enough events, contests, reviews, comments, fullgams, stuffstuffstuffomgsomethingiswrongtheresnotenoughactivity. Sometimes I just don't get it.
RMN as a game database system, is fine. The problem as Neophyte said, you're probably not going to get much feedback if you don't have anything interesting (interestingly good or interestingly bad) to show. Not everyone is going to be happy. Yeah it sucks that some review of some game gets like 80 comments because of "discussion" reasons (it's drama let's be honest ok) while some potential obscure game screenshot is in need of c&c. But that's just the way it is I guess. If you think that should be changed, try to comment on every single blog post on the latest blogs. IDK I'm pretty sure people only comment on shit that catches their eye, I certainly do.
RMN as a game database system, is fine. The problem as Neophyte said, you're probably not going to get much feedback if you don't have anything interesting (interestingly good or interestingly bad) to show. Not everyone is going to be happy. Yeah it sucks that some review of some game gets like 80 comments because of "discussion" reasons (it's drama let's be honest ok) while some potential obscure game screenshot is in need of c&c. But that's just the way it is I guess. If you think that should be changed, try to comment on every single blog post on the latest blogs. IDK I'm pretty sure people only comment on shit that catches their eye, I certainly do.
Drama
...
4. any situation or series of events having vivid, emotional, conflicting, or striking interest or results: the drama of a murder trial.
...
Also, I love drama and I love it when strong emotion is elicited by RM games, reviews or articles!
...
4. any situation or series of events having vivid, emotional, conflicting, or striking interest or results: the drama of a murder trial.
...
Also, I love drama and I love it when strong emotion is elicited by RM games, reviews or articles!
Kaempfer
1932
Anything short of off-topic ad hominem attacks are pretty much fine with me in any discussion, although I do agree with DE on the disillusioned vets subject. It's getting a little old to see someone drop in halfway through a discussion about something RM-related with a one-liner about how stupid everyone is for liking RM in the first place and how therefore the entire argument is moot anyway. OH THANKS DIDN'T REALISE, PHEW
Although, DE, I think you might be confusing the forum aspect of RMN (which is worthless for specific developers but still fun) and the community as a whole. I'm not part of #rmn, but I do talk to several people who I met here outside of the forums in a more sincere fashion. Most people don't even know what game I'm working on right now, and I want to keep it that way until I have something to show for myself! When I do release something I intend to make full use of the gamepage. I think one of the reasons gamepages don't generate as much feedback as game topics is because with a gamepage you (the developer) have to actually provide content and discussion topics instead of just letting forum-goers natter away at each other or provide endless meaningless praise about screenshots.
All in all I think any serious discussion usually helps someone reading it. I often come away from reviews with a better understanding of what people want and what I should avoid, even if the game the review was aimed at doesn't change or the developer of said game just makes a butthurt reprisal instead of listening to the criticism.
Although, DE, I think you might be confusing the forum aspect of RMN (which is worthless for specific developers but still fun) and the community as a whole. I'm not part of #rmn, but I do talk to several people who I met here outside of the forums in a more sincere fashion. Most people don't even know what game I'm working on right now, and I want to keep it that way until I have something to show for myself! When I do release something I intend to make full use of the gamepage. I think one of the reasons gamepages don't generate as much feedback as game topics is because with a gamepage you (the developer) have to actually provide content and discussion topics instead of just letting forum-goers natter away at each other or provide endless meaningless praise about screenshots.
All in all I think any serious discussion usually helps someone reading it. I often come away from reviews with a better understanding of what people want and what I should avoid, even if the game the review was aimed at doesn't change or the developer of said game just makes a butthurt reprisal instead of listening to the criticism.
I guess one of the morals here is that it's okay to take ourselves and our craft seriously to a certain degree. There is a lot of comments like "RM IS SERIOUS BUSINESS" and "it's just rpgmakin who gives a fukkkk", but honestly once you've been a part of the community for years and you've gone as far as signing up on an internet message board to type about it, it pretty much speaks for itself; it's serious business. It's totally okay to be passionate about our craft and it's totally okay to care about it to the point where we take it seriously.
Like kentona said; I actually do love it when our little hobby elicits emotion and such a spirited response, it shows we actually do care, and that's what keeps our community growing. I don't like it when discussion and topics are closed for being 'dramafests' or whatever; if someone has something to say, disagreement with something (or someone) or if a sentiment needs to be shared, it's best to put that shit on the table outright for everyone to deal with it instead of stifling it in fear of 'drama' and nobody saying anything. That passive aggressive way of dealing with conflict or concern just makes it fester and doesn't do anything about it anyway; just makes it worse.
Also there's nothing inherently 'wrong' with this but I can see how it can get really, uh, old.
Like kentona said; I actually do love it when our little hobby elicits emotion and such a spirited response, it shows we actually do care, and that's what keeps our community growing. I don't like it when discussion and topics are closed for being 'dramafests' or whatever; if someone has something to say, disagreement with something (or someone) or if a sentiment needs to be shared, it's best to put that shit on the table outright for everyone to deal with it instead of stifling it in fear of 'drama' and nobody saying anything. That passive aggressive way of dealing with conflict or concern just makes it fester and doesn't do anything about it anyway; just makes it worse.
Many users never participate in discussions unless there's an opportunity to post some "clever" one-liners; mostly disillusioned vets indulge in such behavior
Also there's nothing inherently 'wrong' with this but I can see how it can get really, uh, old.
That's why you make 2 characters that hate each other discuss something. It makes it interesting.
EDIT: I read the post wrong.
ok you make 2 characters that like each other discuss something. It makes it dull.
EDIT: I read the post wrong.
ok you make 2 characters that like each other discuss something. It makes it dull.
AznChipmunk
4613
About what DE said, I agree that gamepages do prevent discussion in a way. When you post a topic in the forums where regulars visit multiple times every day it is very easy to get a lot of feedback, but with gamepages it's a lot harder to get people to actively discuss a lot. However, I don't want to blame gamepages, as I think they are a good thing. Neophyte is right that some people can generate a lot of discussion.
Although I've really stopped using RMN to get feedback, and instead I ask people personally outside of the forums for feedback and whatnot. I mean I upload a bunch of screenshots or blogs but people don't really talk about them much.
Although I've really stopped using RMN to get feedback, and instead I ask people personally outside of the forums for feedback and whatnot. I mean I upload a bunch of screenshots or blogs but people don't really talk about them much.
post=149484
people love drama, it's only frowned upon to maintain outward appearances
I agree. The fact that it generates a lot of comments means people like it. They call "drama" because it's a funny word.
About this game profile thing... maybe people aren't subscribing to many games anymore? Maybe we should make a "subcribe to any game you have the slightlest interest in" campaign?
I take offense to the claim that game profiles PREVENT discussion. The problem is that people just keep going to the forum index, don't see anything, and then refresh and see what comes up after that. Games on RMN are more than just a forum topic, unlike other, prefabbed sites.
Even with that, if there was a detrimental effect to DISCUSSION because of game profiles, I would easily take them again over keeping silly topics. They offer far more gains than any potential discussion loss.
Also, it's definitely drama going on and it's good. Drama is good and always has been. Business as usual is boring.
Even with that, if there was a detrimental effect to DISCUSSION because of game profiles, I would easily take them again over keeping silly topics. They offer far more gains than any potential discussion loss.
Also, it's definitely drama going on and it's good. Drama is good and always has been. Business as usual is boring.
