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COULD ANYONE THROW ME A FEW CITY MAPPING POINTERS?

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slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
I need some advice on mapping cities. I want to make it big, juicy and flavorful without being a waste of space.

In my game, you control a corporate businessman who runs an energy company and must fight off rebels and people who want your inventions for themselves. The setting is modern-ish. The first town is supposed to be a huge city surrounded by defensive walls. I wanted to make it huge, so I made the map... huge. I'm at work so I can't check, but it takes a solid 60 seconds just to walk straight from one end to the other. The more I look at it, and compare it to some of the more well-designed cities I've seen, I realize it's very boring.

I know this is hard to judge without a picture (and I'll provide one later, promise) but I've found myself adding NPCs that walk randomly around shouting nonsense to take up space. I can only give so many hints and tips without sounding repetitive.

I'm going to re-map it from scratch, but any tips would be appreciated. How do I give the idea of a sprawling metropolis without killing the gameplay or confusing the hell out of the player?
I shall wait for a pic of your city.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
How do you usually take pictures of your games, anyway? Just a screencap of your map in RM?
prt scrn button, and ms paint.

Detailed instructions listed here.

Press the Prt Scrn button on your keyboard.
Go to MS paint.
Select the cutting tool.
Right click on the white square that your picture will appear and select paste.
Save the file as a .JPG or .PNG
Go to Rpgmaker.net.
Go to Account>manage games>your game.
select images.
Go to the bottom of the page, and hit add image.
Hit the browse button, select the picture you need, then click submit.
If your map is too big, I'd recommend taking one shot of the map in 1/4 or 1/8 zoom (not in the event page: squares and grids make it hard to see), PLUS one ingame screen of a representativa section of the map.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Thanks for the tip. I'm going to have to take it in 1/8 because I'm pretty sure it's just that big. I'll throw a couple smaller examples out there too.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If you want it to seem more like a city, put the buildings side-by-side without any space in between. Cities are denser than countryside villages.

Not every building has to be enterable, but don't waste space. One method is to make buildings that you can't even get to the front of. Just don't give them doors, or the player might spend all day trying to find a way to get there!

You can make roads, rows of buildings, and anything else run off the edge of the map. This gives the impression that the town continues well beyond what the player can access. If your style of mapmaking includes the general rule "walking to the edge of a map takes you to the next area", then you'll have to get a little bit creative with how you do this.

Multiple heights can help - a brick wall that leads up or down from the main level, and on the other height are buildings you can only see parts of. The fact that they're a different height can work as a visual clue to the player that they're not part of the accessible town. Making them be darkened or washed-out colors can help too.
This is my city. Far from perfect, but it may give you some ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmv8pRXLvVk
Also, it's not a bad idea to have a "central" idea for your maps.... try planning them on paper first and you'll end up with something that doesn't feel like you just tossed a bunch of buildings together.
Do not make a catacomb of streets - whatever you do. Make sure to include alternate ways of getting way around the city - ie. sewers, bridges, allyways. All I got to say.
LockeZ knocked the nail on the head.
To add to it though, you need not make this city all in one map - you can have several different ones for different sections. Not only can you then spend time detailing and livening up each section, you can still have that sense of openness and grandeur; with inaccessible buildings acting to tell the player that the city goes on beyond what he or she can explore, and multiple maps making it seem large without actually being so.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Thanks for the advice everyone, it's definitely what I needed. I'm going to re-map it from scratch for a whole bunch of reasons, but the fact that I need 4 very obvious blockades to keep people from getting lost is a huge no-no.

The map size is 280x170.

http://rpgmaker.net/users/slashphoenix/locker/cityone_eighth.png
http://rpgmaker.net/users/slashphoenix/locker/closeup1.png
http://rpgmaker.net/users/slashphoenix/locker/closeup2.png
http://rpgmaker.net/users/slashphoenix/locker/closeup3.png

Sorry, I haven't actually uploaded a project page so I just put these in the Locker. I'm not sure how to inline them.
I loke those screens, they're not bad at all. I like how you designed the layout of the city. The only problem I see is too much empty space. Roads too wide, too much grass, etc.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Thanks! But yea, sparsity was my problem - like I said, it takes a good minute to walk from end to end, and, a lot of the NPCs there are filler and don't contribute much. I plan on keeping it very similar, but just on a condensed scale, possibly breaking off a couple of the sections into separate maps.

How do you like the chipset? I don't mind the bigger buildings, but the houses seem a little lame to me.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
It looks like a suburb, not a city. Get rid of the grass, replace it with cement. Or with buildings.

Here are two reasonably dense cities from FF6: Nikeah and Zozo. Nikeah has a sizable outdoor marketplace, while Zozo is a slum. You can get a lot of good ideas from both. Note the heavy use of cement and brick ground. Roads are all only two to four tiles wide in Nikeah, though Zozo has a couple of slightly larger areas because it's full of random battles. Both have plenty of buildings you can't get to - in Zozo they all run off the bottom edge of the map, while in Nikeah they just don't have doors.

If you want it to be really urban, here are some blurry maps of Koorong from SaGa Frontier. Note that only the upper left quarter of that image is the town proper. The three screenshots with neon signs are outdoors, while the others in that section are the insides of buildings. The rest of that image is the abandoned slums and sewers that serve as a dungeon. If you want your town to look less modern, just get rid of the neon signs. Once again, about half of the buildings aren't actually enterable. Though in this case I'm not sure why, since there are as many outdoor vendors as unenterable buildings... Maybe street peddlers felt more slummy to the designers?
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Lining the sidewalk with grass is a bit much now that you mention it. I'll tone it down and see how it looks, but I'll probably keep the park and some little planters with trees near the sidewalk. They're fairly common in most cities, and they add a little of the "rich untouched city" I'm going for. I'm trying to make the city a heavy contrast to a slum you visit later.
The biggest problem I have with it is that the houses have NO depth. make them look a little bit deeper, have 3-4 tiles of the roof stacked on top of each other to make it look like it's more than just a wall
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
I want to make it big, juicy and flavorful without being a waste of space.

I...question your choice of adjectives.

Calunio, your city is amazing, especially the cars and other moving events...it is also amazing that you were able to record that without any lag, that is a pretty huge map with tons of stuff going on.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
O.o

Damn calunio, how long did it take you to make that?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Calunio, I just watched that video.

Holy shit.
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