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LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS AND FINISHING YOUR GAME
Posts
calunio
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CloseTHIS TOPIC IS ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO'VE EVER FINISHED A GAME. IF YOU HAVEN'T, SHUT UP, READ AND LEARN.
So we were reading this article about finishing games and talking about it on #rpgmaker.net. There's been a lot of articles and topics on how to finish games, how to be strong-willed and smart and plan ahead etc.
But I believe one of the things that helps the most finishing games is LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS.
After working for some time in your game, you notice that doing what you wanted to do is harder than you thought, takes a lot more time than you expected. So you have two options: doing LESS than what you originally wanted, or sticking to the original plan, but risking never to finish it (which is usually what happens). I believe everyone who's ever finished a game had to lower its standards at some point and make sacrifices.
If that's your case, tell me how. Did you give up on using only custom graphics? Did you lower the number of characters? Of items, skills, monsters? Did you remove side quests or cutscenes?
So we were reading this article about finishing games and talking about it on #rpgmaker.net. There's been a lot of articles and topics on how to finish games, how to be strong-willed and smart and plan ahead etc.
But I believe one of the things that helps the most finishing games is LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS.
After working for some time in your game, you notice that doing what you wanted to do is harder than you thought, takes a lot more time than you expected. So you have two options: doing LESS than what you originally wanted, or sticking to the original plan, but risking never to finish it (which is usually what happens). I believe everyone who's ever finished a game had to lower its standards at some point and make sacrifices.
If that's your case, tell me how. Did you give up on using only custom graphics? Did you lower the number of characters? Of items, skills, monsters? Did you remove side quests or cutscenes?
I think it's less about lowering your standards and more about recognizing what you are actually capable of in the first place.
Aten
1570
I almost did this when I was making FFD, but I managed to pull through without making anything less than what I needed it to be. However, now making LoV and I'm stuck so bad (regarding level design) I was about to give up. But the other day I had an epiphany. Instead of making all towns different, why don't I just reuse the first town graphics, recolor them and reuse them for different towns. I guess thats lowering my standards but.... if I don't, the games stuck in limbo :\
I never gave up!
...and I'm still going. I think it can be good advice; new developers are prone to starting projects that are far too ambitious. But I wouldn't keep this philosophy after getting a certain amount of experience (lol). It's one thing to start a project you can never finish at your skill level, and quite another when you know it's within your ability and you just need more time or something.
...and I'm still going. I think it can be good advice; new developers are prone to starting projects that are far too ambitious. But I wouldn't keep this philosophy after getting a certain amount of experience (lol). It's one thing to start a project you can never finish at your skill level, and quite another when you know it's within your ability and you just need more time or something.
Ok, let me post my two cents regarding Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer. In this particular case there were sacrifices I made due to time restraints too:
-First of all, I wanted to use only original graphics. My first maps were ALMOST drawn from scratch. Then I had to make the city map, and I was looking for graphical references... when I found this amazing Streets of Rage map, and no matter how much I tried (I did try), nothing I did from scratch looked that good. So I gave up on the originality thing.
-My original idea was to have something like... 30 victims. You wouldn't have to get them all, but you'd have a wide pool to choose from. I had to make do with 5, and it was hard.
-There was supposed to be an extra NPC that you talk to you about dungeoneering. I took him off. In a game with less than 10 NPCs, one less is a lot.
-I was meaning to use some visible indicator of will levels (the same way the blood represents the health level), but that would at the very least duplicate my work.
Now, about what Soli said, I've been making games for a while, and I'm pretty aware of what I can and can't do... but you can't predict EVERYTHING, especially when you're trying new things... and that's why I said you were being optimistic.
-First of all, I wanted to use only original graphics. My first maps were ALMOST drawn from scratch. Then I had to make the city map, and I was looking for graphical references... when I found this amazing Streets of Rage map, and no matter how much I tried (I did try), nothing I did from scratch looked that good. So I gave up on the originality thing.
-My original idea was to have something like... 30 victims. You wouldn't have to get them all, but you'd have a wide pool to choose from. I had to make do with 5, and it was hard.
-There was supposed to be an extra NPC that you talk to you about dungeoneering. I took him off. In a game with less than 10 NPCs, one less is a lot.
-I was meaning to use some visible indicator of will levels (the same way the blood represents the health level), but that would at the very least duplicate my work.
Now, about what Soli said, I've been making games for a while, and I'm pretty aware of what I can and can't do... but you can't predict EVERYTHING, especially when you're trying new things... and that's why I said you were being optimistic.
So I've made really extensive games. Extremely detailed sims. Where I can spend a week 40+ hours programming what I consider frills. The end result is that months go by and the game is never released. Then a year later I start from scratch and do the same thing.
I'm trying to learn to not get bogged down in details.
I'm trying to learn to not get bogged down in details.
Zephyr
1241
Well I DID finish a game before, although it was pretty small.
Otherwise my current project COULD be considered "finished". It's just a matter of polishing it up a bit (a big bit actually).
I can recall a few things that turned out differently, but overall not much was cut from the resulting product.
Most that was left out was to be considered impossible in the game engine (rm2k3). Although, I did try to recreate it as much as possible.
Otherwise my current project COULD be considered "finished". It's just a matter of polishing it up a bit (a big bit actually).
I can recall a few things that turned out differently, but overall not much was cut from the resulting product.
Most that was left out was to be considered impossible in the game engine (rm2k3). Although, I did try to recreate it as much as possible.
gerkrt
488
I totally suck at doing practical things.
Krya: This game started 9 years ago. XD. In that time rpg2k crashed in my computer, so i couldnt make it. Also i didnt have internet. Later i had another PC, but without sound. 5 years ago i bought my own PC with my money. The project was revamped and make some things, anyway, i was too lazy and also i have been in a personal crisis in the later years.
Two years ago i recovered rpgmaking, recopile info and writed a 200 pages design document. I started own grafics,etc. But something is wrong. 7 years are too long. The stuff i created when i had 14 years now sucked. The other stuff didnt suck, but it wasnt too god, with some exceptions(i have created some things that i think still today are brilliant, some of they with 15-16 years). I have disconnected with the project. I also have to add a lot to filler to it: in origin, it was a novel, so i hadnt the videogame pace.
Too problems. There are 3 masive reestructures. I give up in a few months. My actual plan is to take the good things of that history and make it the centrl idea of a new, venn if this broke all the old argument, but this will be in a ot of time.
Dreamwreckers: I started this game 2 years ago with simplicity and improvitzation in mind. But the project grows and grows, and now it have a 250pag design document and 0 maps. 2k to XP.
Linnilean: 1 year ago. The idea was to improvize and start nice but my pc fails for two months, and dome other life problems amke that i forgot it. 2k to xp.
???: This summer. The same premise, t grows, but ot at all. 2k to XP. Now im trying to start doing some practic things.
Yes. I have writed like 600 pag about games but the actual one is at 1%,maybe, xd.
Too bad. Im started to think im a natural dreamer or something.
Krya: This game started 9 years ago. XD. In that time rpg2k crashed in my computer, so i couldnt make it. Also i didnt have internet. Later i had another PC, but without sound. 5 years ago i bought my own PC with my money. The project was revamped and make some things, anyway, i was too lazy and also i have been in a personal crisis in the later years.
Two years ago i recovered rpgmaking, recopile info and writed a 200 pages design document. I started own grafics,etc. But something is wrong. 7 years are too long. The stuff i created when i had 14 years now sucked. The other stuff didnt suck, but it wasnt too god, with some exceptions(i have created some things that i think still today are brilliant, some of they with 15-16 years). I have disconnected with the project. I also have to add a lot to filler to it: in origin, it was a novel, so i hadnt the videogame pace.
Too problems. There are 3 masive reestructures. I give up in a few months. My actual plan is to take the good things of that history and make it the centrl idea of a new, venn if this broke all the old argument, but this will be in a ot of time.
Dreamwreckers: I started this game 2 years ago with simplicity and improvitzation in mind. But the project grows and grows, and now it have a 250pag design document and 0 maps. 2k to XP.
Linnilean: 1 year ago. The idea was to improvize and start nice but my pc fails for two months, and dome other life problems amke that i forgot it. 2k to xp.
???: This summer. The same premise, t grows, but ot at all. 2k to XP. Now im trying to start doing some practic things.
Yes. I have writed like 600 pag about games but the actual one is at 1%,maybe, xd.
Too bad. Im started to think im a natural dreamer or something.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I did some things like this in Vindication.
I was planning to have a Wild Arms 3/Final Fantasy 9 type system of equippable skills, which would be different for each character, and have varying effects like making blue magic easier to learn, increasing attack power, lowering ability MP costs, etc. The main problem with this system was that Vindication is an RM2K3 game. I dreaded making the image versions of every single ability name and description, and making the interface to equip and unequip them using only picture events. To say nothing of implementing the actual effects, and adding ways to obtain them all. After about 20 hours of work I wasn't even a tenth of the way done, so I just scrapped the whole thing.
I also cut out plans for an extra hidden character. And plans to complete the plot holes in the story, and plans to add more dungeons to the later stages of the game. And plans to have a real final boss. However, all of these issues, I actually went back three years later and fixed. I had released the game as a finished work without them in 2006, and was more or less content with it, but I was never happy with all the things I hadn't done. It was only years later that I really got the motivation back to go back and clean it up.
From the time I started the game until the time I released it on RPGMaker.net was actually eight years. And I'm still making edits! I figured if I could go back and redo major parts of a finished game once, there's no reason I can't do it additional times.
The equippable skill system never did get put in though. Fuck that noise.
I was planning to have a Wild Arms 3/Final Fantasy 9 type system of equippable skills, which would be different for each character, and have varying effects like making blue magic easier to learn, increasing attack power, lowering ability MP costs, etc. The main problem with this system was that Vindication is an RM2K3 game. I dreaded making the image versions of every single ability name and description, and making the interface to equip and unequip them using only picture events. To say nothing of implementing the actual effects, and adding ways to obtain them all. After about 20 hours of work I wasn't even a tenth of the way done, so I just scrapped the whole thing.
I also cut out plans for an extra hidden character. And plans to complete the plot holes in the story, and plans to add more dungeons to the later stages of the game. And plans to have a real final boss. However, all of these issues, I actually went back three years later and fixed. I had released the game as a finished work without them in 2006, and was more or less content with it, but I was never happy with all the things I hadn't done. It was only years later that I really got the motivation back to go back and clean it up.
From the time I started the game until the time I released it on RPGMaker.net was actually eight years. And I'm still making edits! I figured if I could go back and redo major parts of a finished game once, there's no reason I can't do it additional times.
The equippable skill system never did get put in though. Fuck that noise.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I've been determined to finish what I've started at my level for some years now, and it's because of this that you can either play the 2007 quality version of DoaDV or the 2010 New World Demo quality. To be fair, well, it just wouldn't be fair to quit out now and make "meh" with the rest of the game, especially when all I have to do is take a break for a month or so and then come back to blow through a good section of the game.
Unlike other games (most likely what this thread is about), mine was never focused around CBS, CMS, ABS, and any other sort of long-winded idea, and I've only focused on improving what I've got while adding more to finish up the story I want to create.
Unlike other games (most likely what this thread is about), mine was never focused around CBS, CMS, ABS, and any other sort of long-winded idea, and I've only focused on improving what I've got while adding more to finish up the story I want to create.
We had to do this with Valthirian Arc, we cut down a lot of our plans just to reach the designated deadline by the leader and some of the quality :[
I can't seem to do it with my own games though, too hard.
I can't seem to do it with my own games though, too hard.
Ahahahahahahaha, oh man. I could go on and on about this.
First order of business: Eschew rips! To do this on a reasonable time scale, you usually have to adopt a "distinct" style - that's present in full force here. (<Craze> OH GOD THE TREES.) This is really compounded by the fact that I really, really sucked at pixeling at the time. I've gotten better since then, but the fact is that the sprites were minimalistic for a reason.
Dungeons were extremely basic, at that! I literally just made a sequence of rooms that were essentially linear - you got a key in location A, opened location B, got a key in B that let you go from A to C, etc. Monsters were liberally sprinkled on the map and I tried to let the player be reasonably evasive - that didn't always work out.
As for the monsters themselves, I tried to put as much emphasis on them as possible but it wasn't enough after all of the corner-cutting I did in other areas. I was determined to skip the whole "millions of battle events for every action" bullshit that most 2k3 games go through and ended up with "Fire damage / Water damage / Earth damage / Healing". I like to think that their placement made for some strategy, along with elemental shields and the like, but most people who played it know the truth - it was crappy DQ.
I wanted plot at the beginning of the project, but I dumped it about as fast as you can say "time constraints". Excuse plot go! I literally blazed as fast as possible through writing, and the consequences are rather evident.
First order of business: Eschew rips! To do this on a reasonable time scale, you usually have to adopt a "distinct" style - that's present in full force here. (<Craze> OH GOD THE TREES.) This is really compounded by the fact that I really, really sucked at pixeling at the time. I've gotten better since then, but the fact is that the sprites were minimalistic for a reason.
Dungeons were extremely basic, at that! I literally just made a sequence of rooms that were essentially linear - you got a key in location A, opened location B, got a key in B that let you go from A to C, etc. Monsters were liberally sprinkled on the map and I tried to let the player be reasonably evasive - that didn't always work out.
As for the monsters themselves, I tried to put as much emphasis on them as possible but it wasn't enough after all of the corner-cutting I did in other areas. I was determined to skip the whole "millions of battle events for every action" bullshit that most 2k3 games go through and ended up with "Fire damage / Water damage / Earth damage / Healing". I like to think that their placement made for some strategy, along with elemental shields and the like, but most people who played it know the truth - it was crappy DQ.
I wanted plot at the beginning of the project, but I dumped it about as fast as you can say "time constraints". Excuse plot go! I literally blazed as fast as possible through writing, and the consequences are rather evident.
Illustrious
520
Nah, don't lower your expectations. Just try to accomplish a few small goals at a time be persistent.
Ex:
This week's small goal - Make a game better than chrono trigger.
Ex:
This week's small goal - Make a game better than chrono trigger.
Okay I just read that article; It should be required reading around here.
http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
I set low goals (read: realistic goals) at the start of my project(s), and yet I was still faced with significant scope creep.
This is probably one of the more important steps - having a game you WANT to make and play really helps you to push through the grind and cut out the fluff and ignore the scope creep and resist the urge to start over.
In the beginning, I convince myself that I am satisfied with the RTP (or rips) and then focus on the things that I am better at. I don't know if that counts as lowering my standards, but it is definitely tempering my expectations and goals.
http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
I set low goals (read: realistic goals) at the start of my project(s), and yet I was still faced with significant scope creep.
This is probably one of the more important steps - having a game you WANT to make and play really helps you to push through the grind and cut out the fluff and ignore the scope creep and resist the urge to start over.
In the beginning, I convince myself that I am satisfied with the RTP (or rips) and then focus on the things that I am better at. I don't know if that counts as lowering my standards, but it is definitely tempering my expectations and goals.
kentona, that is a terrific article. (And in case you guys didn't catch the drift, it's by Derek Yu, who if you don't know you need to go do some extensive research/playing right now).
Neophyte
155
post=205919
http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
I have saved this to my computer.
