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CRAZE HATES DUNGEON CRAWLING
Posts
Crystalgate
694
Crystalgate
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Closepost=213490
The problem with most dungeon crawlers is simple: infinite grind.
People like getting stronger, but they don't like doing the same thing over and over and over, especially after it becomes trivially easy. Most dungeon crawlers don't provide any sort of limiter on your power, or any sort of short-term goals, so it's easy to just decide, "Well, I can continue forward in the game, or I can get stronger. But I'm going to have to get stronger eventually. And hell, the entire game is about getting stronger. Let's just get a few hours of grind over with now before continuing."
I'm curious about how many people actually has that problem. Personally, I don't grind unless I feel that I have no other option (other options includes reverting to an earlier save file and getting some helpful items) or there's a cool reward for a minimum amount of effort. The majority of RPGs nowadays neither require grinding, the enemies you encounter on your way are enough, nor are they set up so that I can keep heaping in big rewards for no effort. Even if I'm, say 3 battles, away from learning a cool skill, those three battles will come by just progressing so there's no point in running around in circles unless the game requires me to be at specific places to equip new skills.
Progressing trough the game is usually the fastest way to get stronger. New dungeons means monsters who gives up more exp than the monsters in the earlier dungeon did. If you stop and grind, it will actually slow down the getting stronger process since you're fighting monsters worth less exp. Of course, grinding will make you stronger compared to the monsters you're facing, but your actual strength gain will be slower. Even if I eventually have to grind, something that again doesn't happen in most games, the longer I can hold the grinding off the less time the grind will take.
To make it simple, having the option to bore myself with grinding is not a problem for me since I don't take that option. Do other people really feel a strong urge to grind if presented with that option though?
I refuse to grind unless absolutely necessary. Usually, if I need to grind, I start trying to sequence break (I did this most recently in FF: Four Heroes of Light and managed to make my way to a new city with cool items for sale). If I can't do anything more, I'll probably quit the game, or at least turn it off for a long time.
I really like what LockeZ said about short-term goals!
Even if it's just "please kill fifteen sheepmen for me," it's a goal. There is likely a bonus incentive, whether it's gold or an increased reputation with the Strongg Vendors or whatever. Of course, goals can be more subtle - if there are some, say, Angelic Seals blocking your path in three directions, and you know that collecting Angelic Keys will let you remove some of the seals, and you know that you can find Angelic Keys by exploring areas thoroughly...
(hi chaos; rofl)
I really like what LockeZ said about short-term goals!
post=213490
People like getting stronger, but they don't like doing the same thing over and over and over, especially after it becomes trivially easy. Most dungeon crawlers don't provide any sort of limiter on your power, or any sort of short-term goals, so it's easy to just decide, "Well, I can continue forward in the game, or I can get stronger. But I'm going to have to get stronger eventually. And hell, the entire game is about getting stronger. Let's just get a few hours of grind over with now before continuing."
Even if it's just "please kill fifteen sheepmen for me," it's a goal. There is likely a bonus incentive, whether it's gold or an increased reputation with the Strongg Vendors or whatever. Of course, goals can be more subtle - if there are some, say, Angelic Seals blocking your path in three directions, and you know that collecting Angelic Keys will let you remove some of the seals, and you know that you can find Angelic Keys by exploring areas thoroughly...
(hi chaos; rofl)
Crystalgate
694
This does bring up the age old problem with RPGs, battles tending to be about executing the same command over and over again. Since dungeon crawlers are dependent on the gameplay than the story-heavy character driven type of RPG, this is extra bad for them. If you do solve that problem, it's going to be a huge benefit for your dungeon crawler.
Anyway, about short terms goals. If the player is to travel trough dungeons, I think the dungeons (replace dungeon with floor if appropriate) should serve more than a pathway into the next dungeon. Obviously, beating them will lead to another, but if that's the only benefit then the player may not feel like he's accomplishing much until he beats the whole game. I have several times had the feeling that I'm not getting anywhere, but suddenly I find myself face to face with the big bad evil.
I think providing multiple shorter goals that goes along with the overall goal of beating the big bad evil would help a lot. If you don't make your story barebone, you can use it to provide temporary goals. Even if you just make the story into an excuse for clobbering monsters, you can always make the player rescue someone, find a McGuffin or heck, go the Azure Dreams route and let the player spend the treasure on something that adds flavor. Of course, there's always the additional task of making the short term goals actually satisfying ("Thank you for rescuing me, I shall now go to one of the houses and repeat 'thank you for rescuing me' every time you get the foolish idea of interacting with me").
Anyway, about short terms goals. If the player is to travel trough dungeons, I think the dungeons (replace dungeon with floor if appropriate) should serve more than a pathway into the next dungeon. Obviously, beating them will lead to another, but if that's the only benefit then the player may not feel like he's accomplishing much until he beats the whole game. I have several times had the feeling that I'm not getting anywhere, but suddenly I find myself face to face with the big bad evil.
I think providing multiple shorter goals that goes along with the overall goal of beating the big bad evil would help a lot. If you don't make your story barebone, you can use it to provide temporary goals. Even if you just make the story into an excuse for clobbering monsters, you can always make the player rescue someone, find a McGuffin or heck, go the Azure Dreams route and let the player spend the treasure on something that adds flavor. Of course, there's always the additional task of making the short term goals actually satisfying ("Thank you for rescuing me, I shall now go to one of the houses and repeat 'thank you for rescuing me' every time you get the foolish idea of interacting with me").
