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WANTING TO MAKE YOUR GAME DIFFICULT.
Posts
Cardboard_Master
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CloseI see lots of people around here posting how they want to make their games hard. I'm not convinced it is such a good idea.
In general, people are not going to be as enthralled with your game as you are. So if you make your game tough because you want it to really feel epic and challenging, people aren't necessarily going to want to take that challenge. I think difficulty should vary within a game as the story and location changes. And if possible, a game should offer content to satisfy those who want a normal game and those who want a hard game, probably in the form of optional content.
What do other people think about hard games? Try to think of hard games you have played that are not your own!
-CM
In general, people are not going to be as enthralled with your game as you are. So if you make your game tough because you want it to really feel epic and challenging, people aren't necessarily going to want to take that challenge. I think difficulty should vary within a game as the story and location changes. And if possible, a game should offer content to satisfy those who want a normal game and those who want a hard game, probably in the form of optional content.
What do other people think about hard games? Try to think of hard games you have played that are not your own!
-CM
ariedonus
41
From what I have seen in the community (the portion that makes RPGs anyway), we are trying to make our games challenging and interesting, not hard. In the past, a lot of RM* games are nothing more than spamming attack and using your strongest spells. Pretty boring.
What do other people think about hard games?
If I find an RM game hard I just go in with the editor (and demolish any encryption on the way) and cheat my way through. Consequently, I'm not all that caring about difficulty and if I ever make a game it'd probably be on the easy side.
Of course, I play RPGs mostly for the story, so my approach is probably extreme and downright insulting to some.
cho
0
If a game is too easy then it's boring, and I don't know anyone who plays videogames to bore themselves. It's not like every game has to be utterly murderous, but you should at least have to do more than just spam normal attacks to get by.
post=KingArthurWhat do other people think about hard games?If I find an RM game hard I just go in with the editor (and demolish any encryption on the way) and cheat my way through. Consequently, I'm not all that caring about difficulty and if I ever make a game it'd probably be on the easy side.
Of course, I play RPGs mostly for the story, so my approach is probably extreme and downright insulting to some.
I go into the editor too. Encryption dosn't stop anyone...
Clest
0
I like and am trying to adapt to rpg form the system Super Robot Wars uses for dificulty setting in later games.
Essentially you always start on easy mode which is good for anyone to get familiar with the game, then each mission has a win requirement (defeat X, guy, defeat all guys, protect someone, get to point X) and a mastery requirement which is way harder to do and is optional, granting you a Mastery point. So the game ranks dificulty from then on by a measurement of how many mastery points you have compared to how many missions you went through.
This way the casual player just need to fulfill the basic requirements and can proceed normally.
The hardcore player will both have an extra challenge each mission as well as more dificulty overall, however going through hard usually unlocks some specific units and weapons or even an extra stage, but nothing story heavy for the most part, afterall, the challenging player is usually out for the skill and thrills and the guys who play for the story would be pissed if they missed out on story events because they went easy.
Now on my RPG version of this: Once you sign to a sidequest or enter a dungeon or some other challenge you are presented with the Task requirements, boith normal and extra requiment. A single dungeon may have different tasks such as crossing to point x, defeating x enemy, or avoiding x encounters and so on. The extra requiments would be like: get to point x in y minutes or deat x enemies in 2 turns each or avoid all enemies.
Each game part would have 3 versions: easy, normal and hard which would affect enemy stats, skills and sometimes behavior, as well as enemy encounter placements and puzzles.
However, those special achievements that lead you to harder modes give you extra bonuses, be it stats, skills, weapons or mech upgrades, nothing story related at all, but things that would be cool to have and helpful in the harder bits of the game.
Essentially you always start on easy mode which is good for anyone to get familiar with the game, then each mission has a win requirement (defeat X, guy, defeat all guys, protect someone, get to point X) and a mastery requirement which is way harder to do and is optional, granting you a Mastery point. So the game ranks dificulty from then on by a measurement of how many mastery points you have compared to how many missions you went through.
This way the casual player just need to fulfill the basic requirements and can proceed normally.
The hardcore player will both have an extra challenge each mission as well as more dificulty overall, however going through hard usually unlocks some specific units and weapons or even an extra stage, but nothing story heavy for the most part, afterall, the challenging player is usually out for the skill and thrills and the guys who play for the story would be pissed if they missed out on story events because they went easy.
Now on my RPG version of this: Once you sign to a sidequest or enter a dungeon or some other challenge you are presented with the Task requirements, boith normal and extra requiment. A single dungeon may have different tasks such as crossing to point x, defeating x enemy, or avoiding x encounters and so on. The extra requiments would be like: get to point x in y minutes or deat x enemies in 2 turns each or avoid all enemies.
Each game part would have 3 versions: easy, normal and hard which would affect enemy stats, skills and sometimes behavior, as well as enemy encounter placements and puzzles.
However, those special achievements that lead you to harder modes give you extra bonuses, be it stats, skills, weapons or mech upgrades, nothing story related at all, but things that would be cool to have and helpful in the harder bits of the game.
There's a tons of types of "difficulty". Mario challenges you to have good timing and depth perception (while jumping. FPS test you with quick reaction times and accurate movement. RPGs challenge you to use the strategy and prediction. I Wanna Be The Guy challenges you with rage issues. More seriously, the difficulty including random "Too Bad You Lose" traps that are completely unpredictable are different than games that make you think - and it's not just IWBTG that has them.
People enjoy difficulty that makes them think, because people like to feel smart. They like saying, "Aha, Squaresoft, you sneaky little bastard, if I use a Phoenix Down on the zombie boss he dies in one hit." If you have a boss that's challenging because he's complex and requires some mild thought process on the player's part, you have made a boss people will enjoy fighting. If you make a unstoppable boss with a ton of HP that hits your party for half their health every turn, you are a dick, and your players will either hate your game for making them grind, or quit.
On that note - Easy/Normal/Hard modes always struck me as a bit lame for RPGs, as they 99% of the time just involve increasing the stats of enemy monsters, because it's much easier to code. But in an RPG all this means is you have to grind more. A real challenge would be increased AI or at least extra spells that switch up the fights a little bit and makes the player think more.
People enjoy difficulty that makes them think, because people like to feel smart. They like saying, "Aha, Squaresoft, you sneaky little bastard, if I use a Phoenix Down on the zombie boss he dies in one hit." If you have a boss that's challenging because he's complex and requires some mild thought process on the player's part, you have made a boss people will enjoy fighting. If you make a unstoppable boss with a ton of HP that hits your party for half their health every turn, you are a dick, and your players will either hate your game for making them grind, or quit.
On that note - Easy/Normal/Hard modes always struck me as a bit lame for RPGs, as they 99% of the time just involve increasing the stats of enemy monsters, because it's much easier to code. But in an RPG all this means is you have to grind more. A real challenge would be increased AI or at least extra spells that switch up the fights a little bit and makes the player think more.
post=slashphoenix
On that note - Easy/Normal/Hard modes always struck me as a bit lame for RPGs, as they 99% of the time just involve increasing the stats of enemy monsters, because it's much easier to code. But in an RPG all this means is you have to grind more. A real challenge would be increased AI or at least extra spells that switch up the fights a little bit and makes the player think more.
I agree with this, except the statement about how just affecting stats is lame. Sometimes, a game be fun to rush through, but would be much more engaging if the enemies had, like, double HP and more damage (FF1 Dawn of Souls comes to mind) - simply presenting that option would make a lot of jRPGs more interesting. They might have interesting synergies, but it means nothing if you can wipe the deck with Fira.
That said, more boss skills, extra enemies, etc. doesn't hurt.
Everybody go play The World Ends With You.
Don't make your game hard. When you're competing against a ton of games... there's easier ones out there.
However, if you make a challenge, follow it up with something easy.
Also don't let the deaths take too much time. Get the player RIGHT BACK in the game.
There's the Mario method too, let people play a few hours before it gets tough.
However, if you make a challenge, follow it up with something easy.
Also don't let the deaths take too much time. Get the player RIGHT BACK in the game.
There's the Mario method too, let people play a few hours before it gets tough.
Clest
0
post=slashphoenix
There's a tons of types of "difficulty". Mario challenges you to have good timing and depth perception (while jumping. FPS test you with quick reaction times and accurate movement. RPGs challenge you to use the strategy and prediction. I Wanna Be The Guy challenges you with rage issues. More seriously, the difficulty including random "Too Bad You Lose" traps that are completely unpredictable are different than games that make you think - and it's not just IWBTG that has them.
The different dificulties is something I used to point a lot in topics like this. I am the slow as hell guy who only enjoys strategic challenges for the most part aside from some platformers or fighting games, but even on those I try to stay away from enemies firing projectiles from safe positions as much as possible.
post=slashphoenix
On that note - Easy/Normal/Hard modes always struck me as a bit lame for RPGs, as they 99% of the time just involve increasing the stats of enemy monsters, because it's much easier to code. But in an RPG all this means is you have to grind more. A real challenge would be increased AI or at least extra spells that switch up the fights a little bit and makes the player think more.
Thats mostly my point with adding spells and changing behavior of enemies. Also grinding in my game is no good aside from getting itens since battles only give you that (you only earn stat boosts or skills through itens or completing tasks, some tasks are battles themselves, but usually boss battles or mandatory battles anyway). The idea is: you either use strategy or you sit and enjoy easy mode.
post=slashphoenix
On that note - Easy/Normal/Hard modes always struck me as a bit lame for RPGs, as they 99% of the time just involve increasing the stats of enemy monsters, because it's much easier to code. But in an RPG all this means is you have to grind more. A real challenge would be increased AI or at least extra spells that switch up the fights a little bit and makes the player think more.
Final Fantasy Tactics A2 had an interesting way of doing this- in every battle there is a law you can adhere to to get bonus items and materials(which can be used to make the really good items) or you can choose to ignore, and you 1) won't get the bonuses and 2) if one of your dudes dies, you can't revive them for the rest of the battle. on the Normal difficulty, this is just a cool way to spice up the battles. on Hard, you need those damn items. here's the kicker- in Hard mode, the laws are way more hard-assed. the developers have set them up intentionally to be really really mean in relation to whatever the mission you have to carry out is. say you have to eliminate a bunch of spread out enemies- a law against ending a character's turn without standing next to another unit. boss is weak against fire spells? law against using anything fire elemental- weapons, items, spells, any of it. because you need them items, this forces a hardcore player to think more strategically in an already strategic game. critical success, i'd say.
Clest
0
This is very similar to the mastery system from super robot wars, I was just put off from FFA2 before knowing it though because the whole Magic Knight Rayearth intro with kids from our world going to another dimension and having a judge standing there to dictate the rules in battle sounded too weird for my tastes... maybe nowadays it wouldn´t :P
I think no one wants to make their games hard, just reasonably challenging. They're not just too good at balancing.
Clest
0
On that respect, it is different to make a game where you die easily or a game where enemies are hard to defeat.
Games where you die easily are not that cool for most ppl since it gives too much of a "failing" feeling. The later concept just gives you less of a winning feeling, but less fail too.
A big point in that is that some ppl design their games with one set key strategy in mind, so it is either discover that and follow through with it or die.
I think it is cool when you can still win by other means, just that you have a lot more hardship doing it diferently.
Games where you die easily are not that cool for most ppl since it gives too much of a "failing" feeling. The later concept just gives you less of a winning feeling, but less fail too.
A big point in that is that some ppl design their games with one set key strategy in mind, so it is either discover that and follow through with it or die.
I think it is cool when you can still win by other means, just that you have a lot more hardship doing it diferently.
Crystalgate
694
post=ariedonus
From what I have seen in the community (the portion that makes RPGs anyway), we are trying to make our games challenging and interesting, not hard. In the past, a lot of RM* games are nothing more than spamming attack and using your strongest spells. Pretty boring.
That sounds like a great goal.
Take Mario games as an example. Most of them aren't hard. However, even if they are easy, there's still a point in being skilled. You can beat the stage faster and even if you don't speedrun, being more skilled still means you're less likely to miss-time the jump and having to redo it. It also means you're less likely to get hit by an enemy and lose that fancy power up. In short, even if the game is easy, there are still advantages in becoming better.
However, in RPGs there's often no reward for handling the fights better. Giving the characters the right equipment selection and other out of battle adjustment usually gives you advantages, but being clever during the battles is pointless. Many skills are such that even if you use them when they work perfectly (sleep vs 100% vulnerable enemy, defense up vs enemies with physical attacks only) it's still faster to stick with offensive moves and heal up when needed.
Now for a theory of mine. Assume you have battles which are easy and does have the problem mentioned above. Under those conditions, increasing the difficulty will mainly add frustration. What's likely to happen is that certain skills are either mandatory or useless. Maybe enemies are now hitting so hard that you have to use that defense up move. However, any time that defense up move isn't necessary, it's pointless to use it. You will still not find yourself in situations where that move maybe isn't necessary to survive, but it's still convenient to have the extra defense.
Radnen
1806
post=Crystalgate
However, in RPGs there's often no reward for handling the fights better. Giving the characters the right equipment selection and other out of battle adjustment usually gives you advantages, but being clever during the battles is pointless.
This is why I like ARPG's like SoM or Chrono Trigger. You can get better with timing and what-not. Mario games are in constant motion. I think there's less "skill" involved on games that pause often or are turn based.
TheNecromancer
3160
post=Crystalgate
However, in RPGs there's often no reward for handling the fights better. Giving the characters the right equipment selection and other out of battle adjustment usually gives you advantages, but being clever during the battles is pointless. Many skills are such that even if you use them when they work perfectly (sleep vs 100% vulnerable enemy, defense up vs enemies with physical attacks only) it's still faster to stick with offensive moves and heal up when needed.
Unless you have very limited resources in which case taking less damage is crucial to actually surviving a whole dungeon. The problem there is that most games give you an excess of items and you can always just stock up and buy 99 potions. I used to play FF games and save my Mega Elixir and high powered attack items but then I'd never even need to use them. There was an RMN game that gave you very little potions and no healing spell through the first dungeon, that was hard and very rewarding to try and minimize your damage taken. I actually almost didn't make it and when I got to the end it felt like an accomplishment.
Also, I take personal satisfaction in handling a battle well so don't count it out completely ;)
post=Radnen
I think there's less "skill" involved on games that pause often or are turn based.
Hmm, those are different kinds of skill though. RPG's need strategy and resource management where Mario requires timing and reflexes.
Clest
0
post=Radnenpost=CrystalgateThis is why I like ARPG's like SoM or Chrono Trigger. You can get better with timing and what-not. Mario games are in constant motion. I think there's less "skill" involved on games that pause often or are turn based.
However, in RPGs there's often no reward for handling the fights better. Giving the characters the right equipment selection and other out of battle adjustment usually gives you advantages, but being clever during the battles is pointless.
Chrono Trigger is not an Action RPG as far as I know and I play it from time to time for the past 15 years :)
And I agree with Link, you might use support skills to prevent extensive damage to your party as long as you really have a reason to care for how much damage you take in battle. Sometimes it is better to put at least one enemy to sleep while you kill kill the rest and avoid massive damage on the first round, otherwise you end up spending a lot of time healing.
Crystalgate
694
post=Link_2112
Unless you have very limited resources in which case taking less damage is crucial to actually surviving a whole dungeon. The problem there is that most games give you an excess of items and you can always just stock up and buy 99 potions. I used to play FF games and save my Mega Elixir and high powered attack items but then I'd never even need to use them. There was an RMN game that gave you very little potions and no healing spell through the first dungeon, that was hard and very rewarding to try and minimize your damage taken. I actually almost didn't make it and when I got to the end it felt like an accomplishment.
Most games I've played that do give you very limited resources also makes healing the most efficient way to spend MP, thereby preventing that potential strategy. Done correctly though, your idea should work, it's just that few seem inclined towards implementing resource management correctly.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
People who are actually decent at games usually don't think games are worth playing unless they're hard. Easy games are appropriate for beginners, middle-of-the-road games are good for people who have played two or three RPGs before but aren't that good, and hard games are for those of us who know what we're doing.
RPG Maker tends to almost exclusively attract people who know what they're doing, since otherwise they wouldn't appreciate the nostalgia and would be turned off by the shitty graphics and outdated interfaces. There are exceptions, there are people who try amateur homebrew games of genres they've never played before, but that's the general case.
So for the most part, I'd say that making games that aren't hard is a waste of time. You can include an easy mode if you want, but don't expect most people to try it.
This is a problem that needs a solution. But it's not something you can fix with one single solution. You have to solve it for each ability and tactic you add to your game. You have to make it so being smart is either necessary or helpful in each and every case. If you can only solve this problem for some abilities, people won't use the others. If you can't solve it at all, you will end up making a really boring button-masher RPG. I've played a lot of really boring RPGs that had this problem.
RPG Maker tends to almost exclusively attract people who know what they're doing, since otherwise they wouldn't appreciate the nostalgia and would be turned off by the shitty graphics and outdated interfaces. There are exceptions, there are people who try amateur homebrew games of genres they've never played before, but that's the general case.
So for the most part, I'd say that making games that aren't hard is a waste of time. You can include an easy mode if you want, but don't expect most people to try it.
However, in RPGs there's often no reward for handling the fights better. Giving the characters the right equipment selection and other out of battle adjustment usually gives you advantages, but being clever during the battles is pointless.
This is a problem that needs a solution. But it's not something you can fix with one single solution. You have to solve it for each ability and tactic you add to your game. You have to make it so being smart is either necessary or helpful in each and every case. If you can only solve this problem for some abilities, people won't use the others. If you can't solve it at all, you will end up making a really boring button-masher RPG. I've played a lot of really boring RPGs that had this problem.
