PACING VS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

Posts

Pages: first prev 1234 last
author=Jericho
I don't disagree with your argument now that you have explained it further, ghostman. I think much of the disagreement came from your initial post with paragraphs like this

Games don't benefit from complex villains. Games benefit from good gameplay. Stories benefit from strong character development and complex villain/hero relationships. There is nothing narrow about it. A game with redundant or boring gameplay may benefit from good story

where a contradiction is made almost immediately.
That said
I don't really understand your most recent post. Characters develop because of catalysts? Well, yeah.


I believe the original thread was about how to fit character development into a story. As I said, "obviously this" is how characters develop. Depending on the character and the way in which they develop, different time lengths and events must occur. Simple story-writing mechanics.
I would hope everyone could understand that, though.

But then it's been a while since I've played any jRPGs.
STOP TALKING ABOUT GAMES GOD DAMNIT.

When I meant "game" I meant RPG, as with what we all should use. Stop being so damn general in your posts, guys... Otherwise I'm sitting here thinking Pong has a story, and it clearly does not.

To save my own hide. I had earlier said: "games are defacto stories" I meant RPG's. :P

RPG's have interesting stories, and you'd better be a god damned good writer. RPG's aren't easy, they are indeed the hardest type of game to make, let alone write for. "Lore" is implicit in any RPG. I may not be an RPG master by a long shot, but I do know "lore" is heavily involved, and I do know that if you aren't a good writer (sorry for being blunt earlier), then get some editors who do know how to write and help you mold the story.

This thread was supposed to be about pacing vs character development. Not what constitutes a good RPG. But because lore and other things constitute character development, you are indeed slowing down the pace to explain things. This is where I'll let my argument stand.

Let's get back on track people.

Edit: Dang people post fast here... :/ Ghostman now has the right idea (as of top of page 4)... When earlier he did not.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You guys are so ruffled at each-other that you don't even notice that you don't disagree. Unbelievable. Quit bickering about semantics and go to bed.

Anyway, you said this was the first page of an actual "novel"? It is very interesting and creative, but although I'm not expert on writing, I certainly think this could be written more tactfully, as in with better assembly.
Oh dear lord no, there are no positive qualities to this writing. It is 100% camp. If there is anything acceptable about it, let me know so I can change it.

I never wrote more than about 10 pages. It started with last year's NaNoWriMo and ended around Nov 3. Graive Wruin headed to a machine shop run by a nazi pole dancer, they exchanged a long series of increasingly unbearable double-entendres, and then wizard bikers crashed the joint by driving through the windows on flying motorcycles. I gave up when I got to the action scene.
With no sleep all night and chromodawn swiftly approaching, Grave was not more than a little not irritated.
" I hope you all are looking forward to your stay in the technodump. Cause it's time to take out the trash."

A not quite unhearable hum presented itself forthwith as Grave powered up his magnabike, slipping on his EMP G.L.O.V.E. at the same time
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
That is fantastic and I would like to hire you as a consultant for my future works
author=Radnen
STOP TALKING ABOUT GAMES GOD DAMNIT.

When I meant "game" I meant RPG, as with what we all should use. Stop being so damn general in your posts, guys... Otherwise I'm sitting here thinking Pong has a story, and it clearly does not.

To save my own hide. I had earlier said: "games are defacto stories" I meant RPG's. :P

RPG's have interesting stories, and you'd better be a god damned good writer. RPG's aren't easy, they are indeed the hardest type of game to make, let alone write for. "Lore" is implicit in any RPG. I may not be an RPG master by a long shot, but I do know "lore" is heavily involved, and I do know that if you aren't a good writer (sorry for being blunt earlier), then get some editors who do know how to write and help you mold the story.

This thread was supposed to be about pacing vs character development. Not what constitutes a good RPG. But because lore and other things constitute character development, you are indeed slowing down the pace to explain things. This is where I'll let my argument stand.

Let's get back on track people.

Edit: Dang people post fast here... :/ Ghostman now has the right idea (as of top of page 4)... When earlier he did not.


I agree mostly. Just note that while games in a general sence don´t need a story, any game could have a story to some degree, deep or shallow. Chocobo Racing is a race game and has a story, same for a weird japanese racing game I got based on kits playing with radio controlled cars. But I get your point ;)

LokerZ: I like your first page a lot, but more than anything what got me interested is the setting and background. I come from a roleplaying game background and as such I like to imagine more on how would I live in the settings of stuff I play/watch/read than to just follow the characters per se.

So while I don´t like long narration pauses (at least not forced ones) in any media to convey setting and lore, I do love loads of optional content like in some novels where you have a separate secrtion with a therm glossary, maps, character name meanings, curiosities and such.

And to me RPGs have an edge on books, or better, they CAN have if well executed regarding exposure of lore and the setting since you have certain things already showing through graphics, you have sounds and you have the player moving more freely which can give them the option to just stick to main plot or wander around and see how life is on the setting, what happened in the past and other information.

Also as Radnen said, sometimes the lore is not seen directly by the player, but it was there making things work consistently, preventing weird contradictions and other issues. The rpgs usually praised by good story have some really well thought basis behind them.

After all that I just gotta say again what I said somewhere before: By that I´d probably be more up to western rpgs where you make your character and just "live" and "roleplay" as them. Unfortunely I´ve never seen a game like that which gave me a troue porpose and most of the time the lack of a solid plot left me uncertain of what I should do first. Also it didn´t feel like anyone knew me previously or that my character had a past or anyone I would care to do anything for anyway. So having characters and plot in an RPG give me that drive.
"Lore" is implicit in any RPG. I may not be an RPG master by a long shot, but I do know "lore" is heavily involved, and I do know that if you aren't a good writer (sorry for being blunt earlier), then get some editors who do know how to write and help you mold the story.

I think you're being really broad with your definition of lore. I myself have never seen good or original lore as it is just JRR Tolkien variants strung together (one exception might be planescape torment... i guess?). Having importance on your lore does not mean your characters, hooks, conflicts are any better, just a different way of telling a story.

edit: unless you are making a fantasy rpg where it is town dungeon town dungeon town dungeon lol
author=LockeZ
You guys are so ruffled at each-other that you don't even notice that you don't disagree. Unbelievable. Quit bickering about semantics and go to bed.

I hate when a single irrational person during a debate causes both parties to appear irrational or disagreeable. I wish people would pay attention to the immature pseudo-intellectual who was chucking insults and the person who was identifying his reasoning whilst dealing with said rudeness.

author=LockeZ
Oh dear lord no, there are no positive qualities to this writing. It is 100% camp. If there is anything acceptable about it, let me know so I can change it.

Okay then, I'll be completely honest. The substance is good enough for a game, but for a novel the writing is adolescent and smells of MMORPGs.

author=Radnen
STOP TALKING ABOUT GAMES GOD DAMNIT

When I meant "game" I meant RPG, as with what we all should use. Stop being so damn general in your posts, guys... Otherwise I'm sitting here thinking Pong has a story, and it clearly does not.

To save my own hide. I had earlier said: "games are defacto stories" I meant RPG's. :P

RPG's have interesting stories, and you'd better be a god damned good writer. RPG's aren't easy, they are indeed the hardest type of game to make, let alone write for. "Lore" is implicit in any RPG. I may not be an RPG master by a long shot, but I do know "lore" is heavily involved, and I do know that if you aren't a good writer (sorry for being blunt earlier), then get some editors who do know how to write and help you mold the story.

This thread was supposed to be about pacing vs character development. Not what constitutes a good RPG. But because lore and other things constitute character development, you are indeed slowing down the pace to explain things. This is where I'll let my argument stand.

Let's get back on track people.

Edit: Dang people post fast here... :/ Ghostman now has the right idea (as of top of page 4)... When earlier he did not.

I've had the "right" idea the entire time, whether or not I was adhering to your idea(s) is not a matter of right or wrong, and people getting confused and misconstruing ideas does not help.

And I disagree. RPGs are the easiest type of game to make. That's why everybody here makes those almost exclusively, not because they are all champions of good-story writing worthy of their very own publishers.

---------

About lores, which seems to be the 'now' topic, they are fun, even in an RPG with little story or character development. They don't have to be long or complex, just something about said enemy + how it relates to the world around you. Even Pikmin 2 has them for its enemies, and it actually adds some intrigue. It's the self-indulgent, long-winded and verbose lores which do not create any atmosphere and simply illuminate the writer's nerdiness.
author=Darken
"Lore" is implicit in any RPG. I may not be an RPG master by a long shot, but I do know "lore" is heavily involved, and I do know that if you aren't a good writer (sorry for being blunt earlier), then get some editors who do know how to write and help you mold the story.
I think you're being really broad with your definition of lore. I myself have never seen good or original lore as it is just JRR Tolkien variants strung together


Lore well, is a broad concept, and has therefore a broad definition. It's like the word "Trope", no one can really claim an original trope nowadays.

Mass Effect had an original Lore.
Star Wars and Star Trek have the largest most written lores to date.
The Splinter Cell series, for what its worth has a lore involving the "third echelon".
Fallout has a lore of a fictional post nuclear world.
FF6 has a great lore of machinery and what-not.

Those were just quick examples. Lore defines a games history, and story. Not everything is a derivative or Tolkien's work. Tolkien derived his lore from actual folklore which is where the word "lore" comes from. And in post-modern literature, every idea has been taken. Lore just makes it look different. It's why people swear to god that Mass Effect looks a lot like Star Wars in nature, but has varying elements so as to call it "different". They are both space operas with good and evil, but where their differences lie is in how the galaxies are different. What species were added, what weapons are used, etc.

But for the basis of the OP's discussion, explaining lore based elements to define characters can slow the pace down. But RPG's were never games of fast pace (outside of the battle system, anyways).
I hate when a single irrational person during a debate causes both parties to appear irrational or disagreeable. I wish people would pay attention to the immature pseudo-intellectual who was chucking insults and the person who was identifying his reasoning whilst dealing with said rudeness.


A "Pseudo Intellectual". Are you aware of the cliché "Pot calling the kettle black"? You say one thing, contradict yourself in the next paragraph and then proceed to complain and condescend to the people calling you out on it.

I've had the "right" idea the entire time, whether or not I was adhering to your idea(s) is not a matter of right or wrong, and people getting confused and misconstruing ideas does not help.


People aren't "confused", you're just doing a poor job of conveying your thoughts.

And I disagree. RPGs are the easiest type of game to make. That's why everybody here makes those almost exclusively, not because they are all champions of good-story writing worthy of their very own publishers.


RPGs are actually difficult to make and balance properly and again, you oversimplify. Let's go ask the folks at bioware how "easy" it was making Mass Effect. Hell, let's ask NeoK how "easy" it was making Alter Aila. RPGs aren't inherently harder or easier to make than any other genre. It all depends on what the game actually tries to accomplish.

I could say the same to Radnen's assertion; but at least Radnen isn't being a complete twat.

About lores, which seems to be the 'now' topic, they are fun, even in an RPG with little story or character development. They don't have to be long or complex, just something about said enemy + how it relates to the world around you. Even Pikmin 2 has them for its enemies, and it actually adds some intrigue. It's the self-indulgent, long-winded and verbose lores which do not create any atmosphere and simply illuminate the writer's nerdiness.


Good lore is good, bad lore is bad. Astonishing revelation.

There is no universal answer as to how lore should be handled. I think the issue has already been answered well enough to not have to warrant further discussion.
author=Nightblade
A "Pseudo Intellectual". Are you aware of the cliché "Pot calling the kettle black"? You say one thing, contradict yourself in the next paragraph and then proceed to complain and condescend to the people calling you out on it.

Someone is self-conscious. Can you list these imaginary contradictions? In order to call me out you need list it so I can at least debate the substance. And yes, I have heard of the pot calling the kettle black. I've also heard of projecting. Using the terms "complain" and "condescend" would fit that definition.

author=Nightblade
People aren't "confused", you're just doing a poor job of conveying your thoughts.

You are confused and doing a poor job reading or debating.

author=Nightblade
RPGs are actually difficult to make and balance properly and again, you oversimplify. Let's go ask the folks at bioware how "easy" it was making Mass Effect. Hell, let's ask NeoK how "easy" it was making Alter Aila. RPGs aren't inherently harder or easier to make than any other genre. It all depends on what the game actually tries to accomplish.

I didn't realize I had to say "In my opinion" after any ambiguous statement. "In my opinion" RPGs are easy to make, and that statement is further backed up by the fact that everyone here makes RPGs almost exlucisvely. If you have difficulty making them, so be it. I do not. I didn't know my opinion made such a difference to you. I'm flattered.

author=Nightblade
I could say the same to Radnen's assertion; but at least Radnen isn't being a complete twat.

Pay attention to the person who is "condescending" and "complaining", everyone. He calls people on forums "twats" and "stupid" because they do not deem it necessary to include complex villains in games.

author=Nightblade
Good lore is good, bad lore is bad. Astonishing revelation.

I am not surprised that you're so upset at me that you're randomly attacking anything I say with cheap and tactlessly adorned sarcasm. Very mature. Very classy.

author=Nightblade
There is no universal answer as to how lore should be handled. I think the issue has already been answered well enough to not have to warrant further discussion.

Is that your insult and run last-ditch or....? Need I add "in my opinion" after every noticeably opinion-required statement? I believe this person has it out for me because of my use of the word "benefit". Strange. As a suggestion, the next time you try to engage someone in debate, you should actually do something called "back up your statements" so that I have the opportunity to analyze and debate them. Calling someone "stupid" is not an argument.

Back to the thread's original topic(Unfortunately I am still babysitting) - Do you actually plan on inserting character development into a game you're making, or are you simply curious? I cannot think of many truly plot-driven or heavy games. Most games aren't even that coherent in plot or story. Let alone containing character development.
author=The_Ghostman
Back to the thread's original topic(Unfortunately I am still babysitting) - Do you actually plan on inserting character development into a game you're making, or are you simply curious? I cannot think of many truly plot-driven or heavy games. Most games aren't even that coherent in plot or story. Let alone containing character development.

I watch House, a local television show and he would say: "You're an idiot". Because why would you respond to the "offtopic" portion and then ask for turning back to the original topic? I'm uncertain of your intelligence, good sir. Because you know someone would try to respond... It takes two to bicker, and you certainly aren't helping.

I'm done here. I'll just stop talking. I had to stop myself from replying to a few things. So all I ask is for anone else involved: Nightblade, Ghostman, LockeZ and perhaps Clest to stop.
author=Radnen
author=The_Ghostman
Back to the thread's original topic(Unfortunately I am still babysitting) - Do you actually plan on inserting character development into a game you're making, or are you simply curious? I cannot think of many truly plot-driven or heavy games. Most games aren't even that coherent in plot or story. Let alone containing character development.
I watch House, a local television show and he would say: "You're an idiot". Because why would you respond to the "offtopic" portion and then ask for turning back to the original topic? I'm uncertain of your intelligence, good sir. Because you know someone would try to respond...

Excuse me, I'm attempting to stay on topic, but I cannot ignore such unnecessary rudeness. I'd appreciate it if Nightblade would IM me if he has further animosities towards my opinions. That is all.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
I'm left wondering where it's set into law that "Lore" must be given to the player, mandatory or no. If you want to build a complex plot, start with the lore of the land, be it another world or U.G. Shibuya (TWEWY <3).

Optional reading seems the best medium here. I read all of the bestiary flavors (FFXII) and Secret Reports (TWEWY) on my own time, not when the game crammed them down my throat in a cutscene (because they didn't).
I'm done here. I'll just stop talking. I had to stop myself from replying to a few things.

Yeah, I think this is a good idea.

By the way Ghostman, someone else already explained what you asked me.
author=ChaosProductions
I'm left wondering where it's set into law that "Lore" must be given to the player, mandatory or no. If you want to build a complex plot, start with the lore of the land, be it another world or U.G. Shibuya (TWEWY <3).

Optional reading seems the best medium here. I read all of the bestiary flavors (FFXII) and Secret Reports (TWEWY) on my own time, not when the game crammed them down my throat in a cutscene (because they didn't).

An even better solution is not to show any of the lore to the player. You can get away with a subpar lore if you don't show it too much. I love world-building and all that jazz but I equally know that no player ever is interested in it. (except for those two, you know who I'm talking about) This means you can just come up with some basic lore and try not to have stuff that contradict each other in the game and not show the player everything.

I mean... let's just take... oh I don't know...
Some games tell good stories. Fun games don't need them. And no thanks, I'll pass on Half Life 2.

Half-Life 2. At every corner that game SEEMS to have insane amounts of lore. Does it show it all to the players in strange data terminals? Fuck no. In fact it's better for not revealing all its cards. Some people who make RPGs seem to have this strange idea that everyone is as interested in their fantastic world they created as they are and want to put huge libraries of worldbuildling stuff in the first village just so the players can read and know just how awesome the maker was.

I'm telling you now. Don't do this. Reveal non-important details casually in conversation or in pieces of scenery. The player will think "Holy shit this player worked hard on this backstory!" but not actually know what the backstory is. In fact you yourself can get away with not actually knowing the backstory if you are so inclined. Less work for you. More enjoyment for the player.

It's win-win.
Pages: first prev 1234 last