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Max McGee
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CloseThis article is a really in-depth (over-)analysis of the dungeon and puzzle design structure of Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. (I wasn't a fan of that Zelda game or any of the subsequent ones--I belong to a bit of an older generation, and Link To The Past is the only Zelda game with a place in my heart--but I know a LOT of people remember a little bit younger than me who stayed with Nintendo a little bit longer remember OoT fondly.)
I imagine you probably haven't seen this before as it's a bit outside our usual channels. It was written (many many years ago) by Gareth Rees (who is probably best known, relatively speaking, in the IF community, as the creator of Christminster but if you're not into IF that should mean exactly zilch to you). In any case, it's a very very very deep dissection complete with lots of diagrams, and I figured my fellow RPG designers would find it useful. : )
Not sure how much there is to discuss, but please discuss anyway!
I imagine you probably haven't seen this before as it's a bit outside our usual channels. It was written (many many years ago) by Gareth Rees (who is probably best known, relatively speaking, in the IF community, as the creator of Christminster but if you're not into IF that should mean exactly zilch to you). In any case, it's a very very very deep dissection complete with lots of diagrams, and I figured my fellow RPG designers would find it useful. : )
Not sure how much there is to discuss, but please discuss anyway!
I was actually playing zelda oot this morning before I read about the uber challenge. I'm not really the type of guy that tries that kinda stuff but I must say I am quite interested now.
Neophyte
155
I read this and thought it was only decent because it felt like some gamefaqs walkthrough, then read it again.
It's actually very good how this was written, because you're looking at the design process of a Zelda dungeon when they're polar opposites. On one hand, you have a dungeon where you have little to no tools at your disposal and is fairly linear, and another where you have a handful of tools and you're somewhat free to explore how you want. There is a certain balance you have to maintain between the tools a person can use, and the complexity of the dungeon itself. I've noticed that lots of rpgs (even the more complex ones) still don't go deep enough into this. Even when they give out tools to use, the dungeons are still very linear like the dungeon b image of figure 2. The rpgs that do try this Zelda method of being very complex usually fail because they mostly consist of *push block here* *click* "A clicking noise was heard somewhere in the dungeon!!" which is very one-dimensional and forces you to follow the developers candy trail. An entire mechanic needs to revolve around this rather than throwing random, 'unique' puzzles (aag) that aren't consistent. At the same time, you can't have too many layers like the water temple, which is a terrible dungeon.
Level design is very exciting, isn't it.
It's actually very good how this was written, because you're looking at the design process of a Zelda dungeon when they're polar opposites. On one hand, you have a dungeon where you have little to no tools at your disposal and is fairly linear, and another where you have a handful of tools and you're somewhat free to explore how you want. There is a certain balance you have to maintain between the tools a person can use, and the complexity of the dungeon itself. I've noticed that lots of rpgs (even the more complex ones) still don't go deep enough into this. Even when they give out tools to use, the dungeons are still very linear like the dungeon b image of figure 2. The rpgs that do try this Zelda method of being very complex usually fail because they mostly consist of *push block here* *click* "A clicking noise was heard somewhere in the dungeon!!" which is very one-dimensional and forces you to follow the developers candy trail. An entire mechanic needs to revolve around this rather than throwing random, 'unique' puzzles (aag) that aren't consistent. At the same time, you can't have too many layers like the water temple, which is a terrible dungeon.
Level design is very exciting, isn't it.
I liked the part about how the later in the game you introduce a new tool, the fewer places it can be used. That's a good idea.
author=kentona
I liked the part about how the later in the game you introduce a new tool, the fewer places it can be used. That's a good idea.
not always. twilight princess did that with the Spinner, and i always felt it was kind of gimmicky. sad, because i really liked the design for the item. i was psyched when i got it and was all rolling around tracks and shit, but without the tracks, it was... completely useless. you use it essentially twice in dungeons and there's one optional spinner track out in the field that you can run up to get a piece of heart. laaaame. would have been cool if it were some kind of hardcore desert transport system or something. speeding across the desert on it would have been cool. or using it to skim across water. or something. something that wasn't just 'portable moving platform lol'
I should qualify that by saying that OoT was the only Zelda game I've played for any significant length of time.
author=tardisauthor=kentonanot always. twilight princess did that with the Spinner, and i always felt it was kind of gimmicky. sad, because i really liked the design for the item. i was psyched when i got it and was all rolling around tracks and shit, but without the tracks, it was... completely useless. you use it essentially twice in dungeons and there's one optional spinner track out in the field that you can run up to get a piece of heart. laaaame. would have been cool if it were some kind of hardcore desert transport system or something. speeding across the desert on it would have been cool. or using it to skim across water. or something. something that wasn't just 'portable moving platform lol'
I liked the part about how the later in the game you introduce a new tool, the fewer places it can be used. That's a good idea.
I always hated those items - ones that require specific places/events. The best Zelda items were ones like Fire Rods, Ice Rods, and Boomerangs/Bow & Arrows, because not only were they used to solve puzzles (melt, freeze, hit switches) they were also useful for combat or getting rupees. Busting out the Fire Rod when you had full magic and didn't feel like swordfighting is always a treat.
And I'm gonna read the SHIT out of this article. looks neat.
Radnen
1806
loved the section on good dungeon design. My dungeons don't use keys, so it's not the same, but the geometrical layout is worth considering! :D
author=kentona
I liked the part about how the later in the game you introduce a new tool, the fewer places it can be used. That's a good idea.
Yeah actually, that's a really good axiom. It's almost algorithmic i.e. I feel like you could write an equation for it.
Glad people are enjoying the article.
WolfCoder
3554
"I feel like you could write an equation for it."
I know a friend who has. What's funnier is he was writing a program that arithmetically generates a random Zelda game complete with tools, dungeons, etc. He showed me a neat trick to get really natural and detailed outside maps using Praline Noise.
I know a friend who has. What's funnier is he was writing a program that arithmetically generates a random Zelda game complete with tools, dungeons, etc. He showed me a neat trick to get really natural and detailed outside maps using Praline Noise.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I've been wanting to make a game with Wild Arms/Zelda style tools, so this is incredibly useful. Thanks.
Natook
1000
I absolutely hated the water temple. It was a clever way TO WASTE MY TIME. The only temple where the fun factor dropped to zero. The rest, yeah the design was great. Zelda games always had a knack for making dungeons where there isn't only ONE TRUE DIRECTION but essentially the same thing needs to happen. Although Link's Awakening's third... maybe second? Dungeon (The one with the pot genie) had an extra key that went no where. But that's somewhat irrelevant.
Ideally:
Puzzles = fun
What tends to happen:
Puzzles = needless hassle without thought process (WATER TEMPLE)
Although, I think the intentions behind the Water Temple could've been done really well, but I hate it in games where if you screw up, you have to repeat steps 1-87 to get back to where you were. I think games tend to work better with a very small but noticeable throwback. Not OH SHIT YOU JUST FELL 3 STORIES, GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR AFTERNOON BACK.
Ideally:
Puzzles = fun
What tends to happen:
Puzzles = needless hassle without thought process (WATER TEMPLE)
Although, I think the intentions behind the Water Temple could've been done really well, but I hate it in games where if you screw up, you have to repeat steps 1-87 to get back to where you were. I think games tend to work better with a very small but noticeable throwback. Not OH SHIT YOU JUST FELL 3 STORIES, GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR AFTERNOON BACK.
from Natook
if you screw up, you have to repeat steps 1-87 to get back to where you were.
You mean like this, right?
the correct way to do the Water Temple is just to glitch through it because fuck it forever and nothing you get there is worth while
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Lennon
I really didn't find the water temple THAT bad. It only gets evil near the very end.
I was just thinking about the Water Temple a few days back. Sure, that central room where the water level has to be just right to proceed was a bit of a pain, but I was more focused on my dislike of the final boss, Morpha. He moves around just quick enough to have you longshot the walls and completely miss him, and then he comes up out of the water and flings you right into the wall.
