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GOOD-LOOKING AREAS VS. GOOD-PLAYING PUZZLES
Posts
Shinan
4314
Shinan
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Closeauthor=Feldschlacht IV
I like minigames, because it offers a breath of fresh air from the normal mechanics and because it's optional, but not so minigame puzzles when its required.
Like those godsdamn hacking things in Bioshock and Mass Effect. !#¤"%!#
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
There are certain minigames I don't mind, like holy crap I think I've played more Triple Triad than I've played the rest of FF8. But 99% of the time, your butterfly-catching quest is just going to piss me right the hell off, your cooking contest is not nearly as fun as you think it is, and I don't understand why there isn't just a cut scene where I announce that I'm Captain Basch von Ronsenburg of Dalmasca.
In the OP, though, I really meant normal dungeon-traversal puzzles. This wall is in your way, so you have to hit a switch on the previous floor, but to hit that switch you have to hit a couple other switches to open the right path, and two of those switches are blocked by block puzzles while another one requires you to use the hookshot cleverly to get past a series of gaps with strong winds, and so forth.
In the OP, though, I really meant normal dungeon-traversal puzzles. This wall is in your way, so you have to hit a switch on the previous floor, but to hit that switch you have to hit a couple other switches to open the right path, and two of those switches are blocked by block puzzles while another one requires you to use the hookshot cleverly to get past a series of gaps with strong winds, and so forth.
There are certain minigames I don't mind, like holy crap I think I've played more Triple Triad than I've played the rest of FF8. But 99% of the time, your butterfly-catching quest is just going to piss me right the hell off, your cooking contest is not nearly as fun as you think it is, and I don't understand why there isn't just a cut scene where I announce that I'm Captain Basch von Ronsenburg of Dalmasca.
I like all those things because 99% they're optional. Puzzles aren't and they completely stonewall the game when I'm traipsing in a dungeon and I have to solve some dumb brain bender to even so much as go into the next room. The Final Fantasy series has some great mini games, Star Ocean 2 had a pretty badass cooking contest (and cooking skill entirely), Breath of Fire IV's minigames weren't bad because they powered up your dragon form, and the fishing system in Breath of Fire III was a great break from the game.
Mini games and distractions like that are fun because they're just that; distractions. I can come and go from them as I please and they're always either there or not there when I want them to be.
But puzzles? Eessh, I don't really like them, no. Mostly because you HAVE to do them, and they completely serve to stonewall the player from even going into the next room, even. I just don't have fun with them because...I don't know, I just don't. I'd even rather have a mandatory mini game than a puzzle. They're fine in a game where you expect them and they're part of the core mechanic, like Alundra, or even Wild Arms, but most of the time it's just like...eesh.
author=Feldschlacht IV
But puzzles? Eessh, I don't really like them, no. Mostly because you HAVE to do them, and they completely serve to stonewall the player from even going into the next room, even. I just don't have fun with them because...I don't know, I just don't. I'd even rather have a mandatory mini game than a puzzle. They're fine in a game where you expect them and they're part of the core mechanic, like Alundra, or even Wild Arms, but most of the time it's just like...eesh.
THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL. I haaattee puzzles and it kills me whenever I see one or make me really turn off from a game. I certainly don't want them on mine either but for some reason, a lot feel like it's a necessity or something D:
Neophyte
155
author=harmonic
Puzzles, as defined by how to navigate through the dungeon, are the definition of how to execute dungeon design. Some way to break the monotony of walking in a straight line from dungeon entrance to boss.
Yeah, I will expand on this. The word 'puzzle' is sometimes not a good word for this type of subject.
The problem (and this pertains mostly to rpg's) is that outside of battle, you are not doing anything. You are holding down a button or key and walking in a direction, looking at the (possibly nice?) scenery. No thinking is involved. There needs to be some interaction involved, otherwise it's lifeless and boring. Traditional rpg battles are still interesting and fun because they require you to think, and you're looking at flashy animations that show your input.
It's a make or break thing, really. Just like anything else in your game. A good game becomes great with unique designs, but can also make a turn for the worst. Creating good puzzle design is just like creating a good battle system. You can't just plug in generic things and think you've created an interesting environment. The puzzle design of...let's say...Lufia 2, is really ancient and not a good way to showcase good gameplay. There are random colored blocks in dark caves which look ridiculous compared to the environment around them. Signs are posted up giving you hints like "turn the sun stone 90 degrees clockwise to see the other side of this room", which does not stimulate your excitement in any fashion. Laying down some dynamite and seeing an entire room crumble, or just having some neat spells that change the environment around you to create more depth is more dynamic and exciting to look at. It also helps when there isn't just one solution only. It isn't necessary, but good design means a person can solve your challenge in more than one way. Play Puzzle Quest and to some extent, Zelda. Or just play your battle system. Your battles also have more than one solution (I hope).
If it's sloppy, it sucks. Unfortunately, this is the case 95% of the time. Good-looking areas vs. good-playing puzzles...a good designer knows how to make these co-exist.
Skie Fortress
2394
I don't mind puzzles and other such roadblocks in RPGs. I enjoy them most of the time even. If I didn't then I would have hated the Golden Sun and Wild ARMs series. But those are among my favorite RPGs. The way they integrate puzzles into dungeons is quite interesting and fun to solve.
I don't have such luck though. I would love to make interesting challenges integrated into the environment, but my puzzle design sense is almost nonexistent. My last attempt at puzzles was SEB and that didn't turn out so well as anyone who played can guess.
I still need to think on the matter because right now, my 'dungeons' are just a matter of walking through countless rooms unhindered with some touch encounters here and there. I won't have that.
I don't have such luck though. I would love to make interesting challenges integrated into the environment, but my puzzle design sense is almost nonexistent. My last attempt at puzzles was SEB and that didn't turn out so well as anyone who played can guess.
I still need to think on the matter because right now, my 'dungeons' are just a matter of walking through countless rooms unhindered with some touch encounters here and there. I won't have that.
LightningLord2
230
Puzzles should be incorporated depending how good you are at them. If can't get a decent puzzle together, you shouldn't make any.
from harmonicThis is pretty much how I define the notion of 'puzzle'. Anything that makes getting from Point A to Point B more interesting than merely walking there. Also, wow, seems there are a bunch of folks here who really can't stand puzzles!
Puzzles, as defined by how to navigate through the dungeon, are the definition of how to execute dungeon design. Some way to break the monotony of walking in a straight line from dungeon entrance to boss.
I'm curious to know, though, what kind of puzzles do you have in mind when you say you dislike them? Are there some kinds you like/hate more than others? Are there some things that meet my above definition of 'puzzle' that you wouldn't consider to be puzzles at all?
Also, more on-topic, I don't think these two are exclusive of each other. Quite the opposite, in my opinion. If a puzzle is properly incorporated into its environment, then it can make things even more interesting to look at and explore.
Blind
2262
I want to chime in and say that I think some people are confusing terminologies. Although 'realism' definitely plays a role in aesthetics within some mediums (paintings, perhaps?), it's seldom been my experience that it's come across in the form of a video game environment, especially in ameteur games. What genuinely affects the player's reaction is more-so what it evokes in them--the atmosphere, the feeling, the colors and design. I personally have never stopped in the midst of an RPGMaker game and marveled at how meticulously the buildings are aligned, how proportionate trees and houses and castles are to on-screen characters. I think generally visual appeal exists on a more subject scale.
As far as puzzles and interactive design, everyone probably knows my stance already. But I think for most conventional games, it's actually very essential. With some exceptions, games should never feel lifeless. They be immersive, exciting, challenging. Gameplay should routinely prompt for the player's input, but also manage to stay consistently fresh and dynamic. If your gameplay begins to feel monotonous, it's an issue. Good interactive design requires a multi-faceted creativity that can elevate projects above the mundane.
As far as puzzles and interactive design, everyone probably knows my stance already. But I think for most conventional games, it's actually very essential. With some exceptions, games should never feel lifeless. They be immersive, exciting, challenging. Gameplay should routinely prompt for the player's input, but also manage to stay consistently fresh and dynamic. If your gameplay begins to feel monotonous, it's an issue. Good interactive design requires a multi-faceted creativity that can elevate projects above the mundane.
Pokemaniac
3559
author=kentonawhyyyy they aren't even real puzzles they're trial and error ;(
I like mazes.
Nullmech
0
author=Pokemaniacauthor=kentonawhyyyy they aren't even real puzzles they're trial and error ;(
I like mazes.
They can be, though, if you do it right. Think the Lost Woods in Ocarina of Time... you could get through it by trial and error, but they integrated some hints (the song coming from the correct path) to suggest the correct path. A really simple example, obviously, but if you carried it out farther, you could actually get a fairly engaging puzzle maze that blended perfectly with its environment.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Neophyte
You can't just plug in generic things and think you've created an interesting environment. The puzzle design of...let's say...Lufia 2, is really ancient and not a good way to showcase good gameplay. There are random colored blocks in dark caves which look ridiculous compared to the environment around them. Signs are posted up giving you hints like "turn the sun stone 90 degrees clockwise to see the other side of this room", which does not stimulate your excitement in any fashion. Laying down some dynamite and seeing an entire room crumble, or just having some neat spells that change the environment around you to create more depth is more dynamic and exciting to look at.
This is at the heart of what I was trying to get at in the original post, I think. It strikes me as notable that you think the puzzle design of Lufia 2 is outdated and bad because it's incredibly visually disjointed. I will admit that a lot of my puzzles are still just like this. And although it's less common than it was five or ten years ago, many commercial games (like the Zelda series) still use this method a lot. Don't get me wrong, Zelda has a lot of puzzles that are integrated well into the environment, especially in the 3D games. But it also has a lot of block puzzles and moving platforms and colored switches, especially in the 2D games. I think it just has so many puzzles that visually integrating all of them would be almost impossible. I think most platformer games are in a similar boat, having a sort of strange mix of visually integrated and visually jarring puzzles. A lot of platformer games also have extremely unrealistic visual styles which are presumably designed primarily to make the stupid puzzles look less out-of-place.
Making visually integrated puzzles is certainly a lot harder than making prototypical block puzzles. It sounds like a lot of people think it's worth the effort though, and that ugly old school puzzles don't really make the cut.
Nullmech
0
author=LockeZMm-hmm. But I wasn't randomly restating this, I was just pointing out its application to mazes (and how they're not necessarily trial-and-error "puzzles").author=Neophyteauthor=harmonicThis is at the heart of what I was trying to get at in the original post, I think. It strikes me as notable that you think the puzzle design of Lufia 2 is outdated and bad because it's incredibly visually disjointed. I will admit that a lot of my puzzles are still just like this. And although it's less common than it was five or ten years ago, many commercial games (like the Zelda series) still use this method a lot. Don't get me wrong, Zelda has a lot of puzzles that are integrated well into the environment, especially in the 3D games. But it also has a lot of block puzzles and moving platforms and colored switches, especially in the 2D games. I think it just has so many puzzles that visually integrating all of them would be almost impossible. I think most platformer games are in a similar boat, having a sort of strange mix of visually integrated and visually jarring puzzles. A lot of platformer games also have extremely unrealistic visual styles which are presumably designed primarily to make the stupid puzzles look less out-of-place.
You can't just plug in generic things and think you've created an interesting environment. The puzzle design of...let's say...Lufia 2, is really ancient and not a good way to showcase good gameplay. There are random colored blocks in dark caves which look ridiculous compared to the environment around them. Signs are posted up giving you hints like "turn the sun stone 90 degrees clockwise to see the other side of this room", which does not stimulate your excitement in any fashion. Laying down some dynamite and seeing an entire room crumble, or just having some neat spells that change the environment around you to create more depth is more dynamic and exciting to look at.
Making visually integrated puzzles is certainly a lot harder than making prototypical block puzzles. It sounds like a lot of people think it's worth the effort though, and that ugly old school puzzles don't really make the cut.
Hoddmimir
200
I feel like the trick is subtlety. People don't want to do puzzles or mini-games in rpgs because it might as well be like pausing the game, picking up a sudoku book, and then resuming from where you paused. The puzzle needs to be subtle. Don't let them realize they are doing a puzzle at all!
Mazes are one of the easiest ways to do this if it is done well, but even they aren't perfect. If the maze is anything with a bit of difficulty to it then eventually they realize they are doing a puzzle. One way to improve that is to make the puzzle portion optional. Your player makes it through the dungeon to find that in the last room there is a treasure chest on a ledge with a doorway behind it... how to get that treasure chest? The exit is right in front of them but they may choose to go back in and do your maze to get the extra bonus.
Another way is to hide the clues to a puzzle (again optional if you like) in otherwise normal conversation. Two characters are talking about some topic and naturally that won't seem weird to the player. No disjointedness there. Later when the puzzle comes along they already have half the solution without having to work for it!
Something simple, like having a locked door that you need to get a key for can be a fun and subtle puzzle if you first show a rat running away with the key. Then the player knows how to solve it already. Find the rat and kill it. Maybe you give them an option though. They can just kill rats until they get it OR they can hit some levers to turn on the fans that waft the smell of that cheese they found earlier through the dungeon and bringing the rat to you. Not a perfect example of subtle but the point is that it isn't terribly complicated to figure out the goal and on top of that battles help disguise the fact that it is just a puzzle.
Minigame puzzles almost never do this. They are obvious and disjointed and that is the problem. If puzzles are disguised well, aren't too complicated, and give the player a KNOWN reward (Like an obviously visible treasure chest) they are FAR more enjoyable. At least that's my opinion. For what it's worth.
I feel I should retract my opinion somewhat for failure to give any useful examples of what I am saying. Chasing a rat is hardly a puzzle. So... do a better planning job then me and make subtle puzzles!
Mazes are one of the easiest ways to do this if it is done well, but even they aren't perfect. If the maze is anything with a bit of difficulty to it then eventually they realize they are doing a puzzle. One way to improve that is to make the puzzle portion optional. Your player makes it through the dungeon to find that in the last room there is a treasure chest on a ledge with a doorway behind it... how to get that treasure chest? The exit is right in front of them but they may choose to go back in and do your maze to get the extra bonus.
Another way is to hide the clues to a puzzle (again optional if you like) in otherwise normal conversation. Two characters are talking about some topic and naturally that won't seem weird to the player. No disjointedness there. Later when the puzzle comes along they already have half the solution without having to work for it!
Something simple, like having a locked door that you need to get a key for can be a fun and subtle puzzle if you first show a rat running away with the key. Then the player knows how to solve it already. Find the rat and kill it. Maybe you give them an option though. They can just kill rats until they get it OR they can hit some levers to turn on the fans that waft the smell of that cheese they found earlier through the dungeon and bringing the rat to you. Not a perfect example of subtle but the point is that it isn't terribly complicated to figure out the goal and on top of that battles help disguise the fact that it is just a puzzle.
Minigame puzzles almost never do this. They are obvious and disjointed and that is the problem. If puzzles are disguised well, aren't too complicated, and give the player a KNOWN reward (Like an obviously visible treasure chest) they are FAR more enjoyable. At least that's my opinion. For what it's worth.
I feel I should retract my opinion somewhat for failure to give any useful examples of what I am saying. Chasing a rat is hardly a puzzle. So... do a better planning job then me and make subtle puzzles!
shady_ultima
50
Personally, I like puzzles. The Zelda series is pretty much a perfect example for me. Just about every room in a Zelda dungeon (especially the 2d games) is some sort of puzzle. They make you think, and I like that. While block pushing or switches can seem dull, because they've been used so many times, if you take them out, you're going to get bored, quick. With a standard RPG, I suppose you could just shoot up the random encounter rate, but I hate random encounters, and I can't stand the standard turn based battle system. I'd rather play a game with 100% puzzles and no random, turned based battles any day.
