HOW MANY IS TOO MANY?

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So, I have been working a new project on the side of my main one. I'm trying to create a fun kind of battle system, but I don't know how many people should be allowed to fight. There are 11 characters, one main character and the rest are partners similar to the paper mario series. Each partner has an overworld ability. These abilities allow you to go places that you can't get to alone. I have it set up, so that you have 1 partner always following you and can be swapped out with another with a press of a button. When you engage in battle by touching enemy sprites you enter a battle with the partner that is following you. The amount of enemies range from 1-3, more can be called if an enemy dies or there is less then 3 enemies.

My question is should there be more enemies in a battle. Also is having a party of 2 people too little for battles? All 10 of your partners are always with you and can be swapped out easily to decide who you fight with. Not only can they be swapped outside of battle, but during a battle as well and it doesn't even cost a turn. Perhaps it's really 11 people fighting then? Oh and my battle system is turn based.

I don't know if this helps or not, but partners level up differently. There are 80 power gems that you can find and take to a gypsy who will level up your partners in exchange for a power gem, the max level of a partner is 9. You must acquire a power orb in order to level up your partners further, each power orb collected increases the max level of your partners. These are found in a special dungeon in which you can explore from the start of the game until the end. Each new partner allows you to explore further into this dungeon with their special abilities. Basically you can acquire one power orb after each dungeon completed, which is when you would gain access to a new partner. The main character's max level is 99, but he levels by gaining experience from battles. When the main character levels he has an option to choose which stat to increase. The three options being Hp, Mp and Rp. His other stats, attack, magic, defense and speed, will not be increase by leveling. They can be increased by equipping rings. Rings cost Rp or ring points to equip. These are much like badges in the paper mario series.
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
I think the swapping system sounds really cool, and honestly I think 2 characters in a battle is fine. especially if you can switch out to other during battle.

Something that might be cool and also help with not abusing the swapping system is maybe more enemies come when you swap(if that's possible to even code) just that way you don't have 11 people to swap out with, without some repercussion.

Think of Final Fantasy 10, if you have ever played, where you needed some characters to fight certain monsters and you could switch out mid-battle.
that's something to consider too.
author=InfectionFiles
Think of Final Fantasy 10, if you have ever played, where you needed some characters to fight certain monsters and you could switch out mid-battle.
that's something to consider too.

Actually there are enemies exactly like that. For example I created an enemy called evil mirror which reflects any attack back and is immune to most spells, but one of the partners have a skill called explode that can destroy the enemy. There are 4 elements in my game water, fire, wind and earth. Each partner is a certain affinity that makes them either strong or weak against an attack. There is also no affinity in which case any elemental damage taken is the base damage of the spell. Also certain enemies will call for help which will bring in more enemies, but the maximum amount of enemies at once is 3 so far. The swapping of partners during battle isn't really as abusive as you might think either. The enemies are made, so that only a few of your partners are effective against them. If there were a group of water affinity monsters and your partner was fire affinity then you wouldn't want to use that partner or any other with fire affinity because they will kill your partner in just a few hits with their water spells. Basically if the skill's element is strong against the affinity of the target the damage is doubled and if it's weak against it the damage is halved.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
McBick: Consider not using perfect 'elemental pairings' (Fire element dude can be weak to Wind instead of Water) to make the decision process behind choosing an ally more interesting. Otherwise I'll always use the pokemon ally who has the elemental advantage, every single time. Another form of averting this is giving the Fire dude who is weak to Water some attacks that do special things to Water enemies, such that you might actually want to think about taking a gamble and leaving him in.
Not exactly sure what you mean. As you progress through the game there will be groups of enemies with different affinities. For example you might run into an earth, water and fire enemy in one group. There are partners with no affinity though, so you don't have to worry about your partner getting destroyed. You will always be switching partners because there will be enemies that can dish out a lot of damage to specific characters. The affinities are equally divided up, so there are about 2 partners of each affinity, including no affinity. Also each partner has a special ability.

Abilities:
Analyze (Gives you information about the area or an enemy.)
Cut (Lets you cut bushes.)
Strength (Lets you move boulders.)
Ignite (Lets you lite torches.)
Leap (Lets you jump up cliffs.)
Bubble (Lets you walk under water.)
Explode (Lets you blow up cracked walls.)
Fly (Lets you fly any where on the map.)
Shadow Cloak (Lets you become ghost like to get through traps.)
Float (Lets you pass pits.)

All of these abilities can be used in battle and are the only way to kill special enemies and bosses, except analyze which just tells you the enemy's stats. I guess you could consider the skills a different element, but they're not coded as such. They just make it so you can damage enemies that are normally impossible to damage. Yes I know the skills sound similar to pokemon skills, but it's not a pokemon game. I just thought that instead of getting items in each dungeon to complete the dungeon, like the zelda series, I would get partners that each have a special ability. I guess you could say this game is a mix of mario, zelda and pokemon elements.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
Right, that's exactly what I am talking about. When you go up against enemies who can only be Ignited, you only have one choice of which ally to use. I'm not sure why it's interesting to switch party members around if it's always the same party member being applied to the same situation every time...
I agree completely. Not only that, but abilities can also be used in different ways in battle. For example shadow cloak is a must for the 6th dungeon boss who has a skill that creates traps for when you use the attack, skill, item and defend commands that deals damage when ever you use one of those commands, but the shadow cloak makes you invulnerable. Don't worry though it can't be abused because it wears off every time you attack. Which makes it impossible to abuse when you have more then one enemy. And can't be abused when fighting bosses either because they require a specific partner to beat them, except for the final boss which requires all your partner's abilities to beat him.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
(This should be in game design and theory, probably, and is actually a pretty interesting discussion.)

I personally think that two allies is *usually* too few to allow much depth to combat tactics. You don't have enough people to let different characters really perform different roles. However, the fact that you can switch them out mid-battle helps a lot - especially if doing so doesn't take an entire round. (Is it completely free, or is there some sort of MP cost or other cost? I don't think it should be completely free, but taking a round is too steep a cost.)

Might I suggest an idea I got from the Roguelike genre of RPGs? Many Roguelikes let you start with one ally in the way you're describing, but as your charisma stat increases, you can use more allies. You don't have to actually base this on the player's charisma stat (or have a charisma stat) - you can unlock the ability to use more party members through some sort of story event, key item, unlockable ability, etc. This makes the game start off simpler, and get more complicated as the player gets accustomed to it.

Here's kind of a breakdown of what kind of tactics I think you can generally expect from games with different numbers of party members:
1 party member - Main character must be able to do everything. You almost always can specialize your character's build in this type of game, but you must be able to beat every enemy regardless of how you've built him. This typically means that either he must be a jack-of-all-trades who only gets minor benefits to whatever he specializes in, or enemies must only be slightly harder to beat with the worst strategy than with the best one. This type of RPG is typically easy.
2 party members, locked for entire game - One will be physical and one will be magical. Even if you let the player customize their builds, this will be how every player chooses to build them. Between them, the player will generally have access to every offensive strategy in the game. Almost always, they are both pure damage dealers, with healing done via items or via combo techniques or via some other method that they can both do equally. Occasionally, one may be a tank and the other a healer, but this doesn't leave much room for anyone to deal damage. Having one be a damage dealer and the other be a healer doesn't work very well - it just isn't fun and the healer often feels worthless. Significant interaction of some sort between the two characters, whether that means healing/tanking, combo moves, moves that make other moves more powerful, etc., is guaranteed, and will typically be a major part of the gameplay.
2 party members, one selectable - The hero will be vastly more powerful than the selectable party member, and will be able to effectively deal damage to any enemy. This is closer to a single-character game than to a game with two permanent party members. The selectable party member takes the place of customizing the hero's build. If the members can be changed mid-battle, then you lose the customization in favor of being able to always have access to every skill in the game.
2 party members, both selectable - I've never really seen this done. Good luck. It would most likely involve a large amount of interaction, both between the two active characters, and between the active and inactive characters. If you can change mid-battle, this would be similar to a three-character system with 2 or 3 selectable characters, except with a lot less room for player error. If you can only change outside of battle, this would be difficult to make work, since the player would usually (but not necessarily always) be limited to combinations that satisfy the stipulations of the "two permanent characters" situation.
3 party members, locked for entire game - You no longer have a balance between magic and physical, so instead the three members are typically a tank, a healer, and a damage dealer. In some games they may include a healer and two damage dealers. The fact that the healer has multiple people to heal makes his actions feel more tactical/interactive and less like a simple HP battery, and creates a good balance between single-target and area healing, where the player actually has to weigh the pros and cons of each in situations where two of the three people are hurt. In other games, all three may be jacks of all trades, differing in weapon types or elements, which results in less interaction between party members.
3 party members, at least 2 of which are selectable - This is a solid setup that allows for a lot of advanced tactics. Even if you have a main character who is unremovable, the hero has enough support that he's no longer required to be a jack of all trades. You can do almost anything here. The player will almost always use the same types of role combinations as you would give them in the previous situation, but must determine which of those combination to use, adding a significant layer of strategy.
4 or 5 party members - The player is absolutely guaranteed to have more than one damage dealer, which opens up a lot of possibilities for complex offensive strategies. The player has enough characters to use multiple healers in situations where they are taking heavy damage - this ability to switch between a more defensive and more offensive focus can lead to people who are good at strategy utterly overpowering battles that you planned to be quite hard, and requires you to make bosses that summon allies or heal or otherwise make sure the player can't win every fight by turtling. Area healing and area attacking becomes extremely effective compared to single-target healing and must be nerfed in some way other than merely MP cost. This is the lowest number of party members where enemies that use instant death spells can be balanced into the type of game, although in a 4-character team they're still extremely dangerous. This type of party has a great deal of complexity - probably the most of any of these.
Lots - At six or more characters the player essentially has an army. Interaction between characters is rare, since anything that can interact with only one character is useless, and anything that can interact with many characters can be used way too often. Redundancy between characters is guaranteed - often signifcant redundancy. One character dying is no longer important to the outcome of the battle. Enemies that use instant death spells become quite acceptable. Area spells become absurdly powerful, and must either only hit a subset of targets, or have extreme limitations on their availability for usage.
author=LockeZ
I personally think that two allies is *usually* too few to allow much depth to combat tactics. You don't have enough people to let different characters really perform different roles. However, the fact that you can switch them out mid-battle helps a lot - especially if doing so doesn't take an entire round. (Is it completely free, or is there some sort of MP cost or other cost? I don't think it should be completely free, but taking a round is too steep a cost.)

There is no draw back to switch characters. Also your main character must always be in the battle, so you can't switch him out.

author=LockeZ
Might I suggest an idea I got from the Roguelike genre of RPGs? Many Roguelikes let you start with one ally in the way you're describing, but as your charisma stat increases, you can use more allies. You don't have to actually base this on the player's charisma stat (or have a charisma stat) - you can unlock the ability to use more party members through some sort of story event, key item, unlockable ability, etc. This makes the game start off simpler, and get more complicated as the player gets accustomed to it.

Not sure what you mean here. You gain a partner from the start of the game. You must then travel around the island to beat the 8 demon lords in their dungeons. As you progress you will encounter obstacles which require new partners to get by them. Each partner has their own story and reason for helping you. Basically you will gain access to a new partner after every demon lord you defeat. Recruiting partners is mandatory to proceed with the completion of the game. There is however a bonus partner. He is not needed to beat the game, but is very powerful. The game is broken down by each dungeon. You will meet up with a partner who will ask for your help which will ultimately lead you to the next dungeon. The cycle continues until you acquired all of your partners, excluding the bonus one.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Right, I know you get more character options as the game goes on. What I'm suggesting is that when you get your first partner, and for some time after that, you can only use one partner. But around the time you get your fourth or fifth partner, you can start using two partners at a time. And around the time you get your eighth, ninth or tenth partner, you can start using three partners at a time. Or something like that - the exact timing of when you can start using more isn't that important, although you should probably always have at least 2 more partners than party slots.
I understand now. Also I probably should have put this in game development instead and just focused on general the party's size. As for your idea, I am not sure I like it. That would probably make it harder to balance enemies.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I think it would make it easier, really. You no longer have to worry so much about making sure no one party member is too optimal, etc. I dunno. I like complexity. I don't think there's such a thing as too much. That's why I make RPGs. Your system as it stands, with only one party member at a time, means there's always a single best choice as to which party member to use. In battles against these enemies with weaknesses, you cannot choose partners for their tactical advantages and side-effects - you must always use the one that matches the enemy's weakness. Giving the player two partners at a time would mean they have an actual choice of who to use, creating a more RPG-like feel and a less simon-says-like feel. But giving them only one partner at a time for the first third of the game would give them the ability to become accustomed to it, and give you time to include plenty of enemies and bosses that only are balanced with one partner.
Actually after the 3rd dungeon enemies become much more harder to deal with. It won't be easy to decide which partner to use when your enemies all have different affinities and skills. Of course in any rpg there is an optimum strategy to use against each enemy or enemy groups. Though I can see what you mean. While there are special enemies that require specific partners to be used to win, there are many enemy groups that give you room for using more then one partner to win the fight. I have to admit though the option to always use your favorite character is not ideal in my game, but I have sacrificed that option to add a new flare to the game which is requiring enemies to be killed by specific partners, instead of using the same partner for the whole game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=McBick
Of course in any poorly designed rpg there is an optimum strategy to use against each enemy or enemy groups.


Fixed this sentence for you
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=LockeZ
Your system as it stands, with only one party member at a time, means there's always a single best choice as to which party member to use.


While McBick does have a point, that any sufficiently complex system will have a small selection of optimal choices for any given situation, there IS in fact usually more than exactly one optimal choice. I tried to stress this point in my earlier posts, and LockeZ is now repeating it, so I would definitely stew on the switching mechanics for a bit.
author=Versalia
While McBick does have a point, that any sufficiently complex system will have a small selection of optimal choices for any given situation, there IS in fact usually more than exactly one optimal choice. I tried to stress this point in my earlier posts, and LockeZ is now repeating it, so I would definitely stew on the switching mechanics for a bit.

Do you mean I should remove switching during battles? If so I can't do that because what if your fighting a special enemy or boss that can only be damaged by a specific partner, you would then be forced to run or die if your fighting a boss. Of course I could change that, but that would defeat the purpose of having each partner have a unique ability.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
No, Jesus, that's the opposite of what we said.

Do you only read every other word?
author=LockeZ
No, Jesus, that's the opposite of what we said.

Do you only read every other word?

I read what I can understand. My only understanding of the word stew is a type of soup. That's why I asked about removing the switching mechanic. I don't know why your angry over a misunderstanding.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Okay, so English is not your first language. Got it.

To "stew on" something means to think about it for a while.
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