HOW IS THIS FOR MY FIRST BOSS?

author=DE
Your forgot to include arguments in your post. Why does it make perfect sense? Because it's used in FF11? Yeah, great argument.

heh Well lets take a look back at your stellar arguments against this sleep/poison combo, shall we?

author=DE
Wait, wait, wait... you have to POISON YOURSELF so that you automatically wake up from a sleep spell? This is the dumbest idea for a spell combo I've ever heard.

author=DE
It's dumb because it's illogical, it's counter-intuitive, and it makes no sense - try taking a lethal poison and a sleeping pill at the same time, let's see if you'll magically wake up when the poison starts to take effect in time to take an antidote.

I never stated that general logic has no place in a video game. Of course most things should be fairly logical. I was just commenting on the analogy used and how your using logic of human physiology to discredit a magical phenomenon in a video game(I guess I should have been more specific last time, huh?). Comparing a sleep spell in a game to taking a sleeping pill in real life makes no sense and it seems like that is your main reason for thinking the sleep/poison combo is a bad idea. If you have any further arguments as to why the combo is a bad idea you can direct them to this brick wall of anti-climbing paint

http://rpgmaker.net/der

I don't plan on debating this as it is pointless. I will explain why the strategy worked in ffxi though. There are some special fights where 3 people can fight really strong enemies where every turn counts. Some of them will constantly put the whole party to sleep. The tank will get hit and woken up and could try and remove sleep on the others, wasting turns. Or you could use a poison potion to induce poison before the fight. Then every party member will wake up automatically and victory ensues. It makes sense because you are using in-game rules and status effects to your advantage.

*also, I just want to say, I'm not supporting the OP and his idea in any way. xD

I don't have a problem with the mechanics you've listed, but you should strongly consider alternative methods to counter the sleep or changing the sleep spell to something less debilitating... It's a bit harsh for a first boss. Introduce resist items, don't make it a mass/party affecting spell, introduce cure/dispel skills earlier, add interrupts, etc. Since poisoning yourself comes at a cost, it shouldn't be the most desirable solution but considered a workaround.

Yeah I think the charm of that tactic dies when the player realized the boss could have just cast some incurable poison. The player should not feel smart for having to punish himself to undo a slightly bigger punishment.

wait so how do you know to cast poison on yourself

like is there some indicator that the boss will use sleep magic

because after it does it's kind of too late

so you either have to go in knowing what to do ahead of time, or waste time dealing with him healing himself back up completely

the only way i can see this working is if the amount of HP he has won't take very long to bring back down AND if it's made apparent to the player that poison can counteract sleep, like Crystalgate suggested
and then you still have the "sit around doing nothing watching the boss heal" problem
maybe have the boss use a special kind of sleep that only lasts 1 turn, but make his heal a bit larger to compensate? that removes a lot of the tedium, i guess

edit: then again, i guess poison doesn't prevent sleep it just counteracts it so then the poison would become worthless and there'd be no real way to win except in a boring war of attrition (assuming he doesn't heal as much HP as you can damage in a single round)

Hi!

i dont see poisoning the own party as something very counter-intuitive and bad design, you cant just say "this is counter-intuitive for every game in the world".

If the game teaches you that bad effects are meant to be put on enemys and good stuff is always put on heros and/or if other damaging/negative effects can't even target the party, then it surely is counter-intuitive.

But it doesnt have to be that way. For example lets say we have a "dampen holy magic"-skill. That would be useful on heros and enemies, it decreases damage taken from holy and reduces the healing enemies get from holy magic. Of course its not the best of all idea to heal a character using holy magic after shielding him against holy magic.

If its part of the game to think of the different use-cases for effects on party of enemies, breaking sleep using poison isn't such a bad idea. This also says nothing about how much the poison damages the party (it does not have to deal massive damage forever), it can also be short run and deal only little damage. On the other side, since this is damage inflicted by the player itself in a way, it can also mean a different situation for healing abilities, a variation of the healing challenge.

It may be "aiming bad stuff at own heros" that is considered so counter-intuitive, but using damage to break effects is fine i think.

The Phoenix Down to Kill a Boss thing actually made sense in the context of the game. Phoenix Downs took players who were dead (and not able to act) and reversed their condition, bringing them to life. It is not that great a leap of (videogame) logic to start wondering if using a Phoenix Down on something that was dead (undead - and able to move) might also reverse its condition! I actually remember thinking it might resurrect it into a living form that I would then be able to kill normally, but the instant kill worked well too.

I don't like games/bosses/whatever that have only one way to really beat them (aside from point&click adventure games, to a degree, where it is kind of a staple), especially if that one way is something that would not occur to me under normal circumstances. Having never played FFXI, I would never have thought "oh hey, poison is going to be my anti-sleep ward."

I've quit and immediately uninstalled/deleted RM2k3 games that threw a status effect at me right off the bat that I could nether defend against nor remedy. If I'm on the very first screen and I get poisoned with something that lasts after a battle and that I have no antidote for (nor apparent access to one), and that game is not called "Deadline - See how far you can get before you are thrust into a random battle with 1 hp left", then I'm going to say "Bad Game Design" as I alt-f4 out of it. Relevant point - I hate poison, so poisoning myself would be very strange.

I think you should try to make a game that does not require your very own set of circumstances/experiences to solve. You should never take for granted what the player does or does not know. If they need to know something obscure, make sure that you teach it to them well beforehand.

Also, I hate having to use a guide. Sometimes when I get stuck and have tried everything that makes sense, and a few things that don't, I'll knuckle under and take a quick look at a guide. Usually it only takes once or twice before I get a grip on the game's internal logic and can parse out future issues on my own. Any more than that, though, and I might as well just look for a lets play of the game on youtube, because I'm not really playing it for myself at that point. You never want something that is going to force a disconnect between your medium and your audience.

I thought it was a good idea (from i don't remember who) to have the player experience that a poisoned hero or foe remains unaffected by sleep.
@Killer Wolf : I understand your point, i've done that too, just quit when something too absurdly unbeatable comes up, it then depends on the quality of the game, the way that boss is brought about, how much you want to keep going, are involved, etc.