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author=Solitayreauthor=CielThat all sounds pretty cool, Ciel. I like alchemy-based combat systems that actually have some thought behind them rather than just being "have item, use ability" or something arbitrarily implemented for the sake of imposing some sort of crafting system.
Ciel's design doc
It sounds pretty complicated with a high learning curve, however, though I guess that was kind of the point. I am kind of getting MtG vibes from some of the abilities, was that a source of inspiration?
If you wish to promote this kind of detailed game design in the community, you should make a game profile and use the blogs so you can discuss it more in-depth and share what you feel are positive ideas with the community to learn from. That is the most effective way for you to promote your ideals, in my humble opinion. You cannot expect people to magically learn "better" and start making "better games" without positive examples to learn from. I think you'd see more positive effects from this kind of activity than just posting about how hopeless everything is on the forums.
I'm glad you like the character design, I'm pretty proud of it since it took like 30+ hours of straight thinking to complete. I'm not sure what MtG is so I don't think I was inspired by it. If anything I am inspired by the greatest video game ability design in the world done by a team of 10 Swedish guys in a game called Bloodline Champions.
Unfortunately Craze already has a pretty good stranglehold on the design aspect here, so most everyone is interested in making slot machine simulators in RPG form, wherein random chance is present to such an extent that correlation between success/failure and the player's input is heavily marginalized.
For more on this I'll link a post I made on MD. I didn't make any such post here because it would instantly be pushed into oblivion by 'updated charset today' blogs, a design issue several staff members and the site creator agreed was problematic and discouraging to those wishing to contribute thoughtful content, but 1+year later is still mysteriously unresolved.
author=Fallen-Griever<Magi> it isn't so much the site that we criticizeMassive success :)
<Magi> as it is the members
<Magi> well, select members
<Magi> such as f-g and lockez
<Ciel> the overarching design and attitude trends in the userbase
<Kef> i only trash rmn because it's outright pathetic to see a 25 year old make a game like tales of zoolander or whatever
<Ciel> we stopped discussing flaws with the actual site about the time it became clear you weren't interested in fixing them
<Ciel> obviously our intention was to be mean and terrible and not to help
<Kef> the constructive criticism stopped when it was clear no one wanted to hear advice
Obviously, writing tonnes of reviews and articles and tutorials is bad for the site and the community...
what is this lol. in the actual context of this discussion, wip was saying 'you all criticize rmn too much'. and we were telling him that, since there was no longer hope for the actual mechanical aspects of the site to be addressed (since he was the coder and left) our primary 'beef' was with the attitudes/ignorance/design shortcoming present in some aspects of the user base. i.e. legitimate concerns with the overarching direction of the site insofar as the user base was concerned. 'obviously our intention was to be mean' line is clearly sarcastic, referring the line i typed just before that regarding the times when we 'criticized the (actual) site'. the only reason i have on occasion been mean to you in particular is because you very very aggressively say very ignorant and aggressive/mean things, as indicated (boasted) by your user title. people like you occasionally need a little slap in the face to let you know you're behaving in a ridiculous fashion, but i guess you don't have the self awareness to get that.
kef is actually just a troll though
@Ciel
So you're not going to actually make an effort to try to improve anything? Even when invited by the users to try to make a difference you still decline? Even acknowledging all the cool features RMN has (reviews, game pages, blogs) you're not going to take advantage of any of it to try to make a difference?
All I see in that MD post is more soap-boxing/complaining. Can you see why this kind of attitude is ultimately self-defeating? All you do is complain about the state of things, yet when invited to try to promote new ideas, to try to instigate change, to try to make a difference, you decline or pass the buck. That's not how things work in a user-generated community.
I know you had bad experiences at GW or whatever and felt like your ideas/articles/whatnot didn't get the attention you thought they deserved. But this isn't GW and you can't cling to that bitterness forever. We both know you're a smart guy with good ideas, but you won't share them because "people don't want to hear them anyway." You know that's not true. A lot of people get great responses when talking about game design on their blogs. It worked for TFT and Strangeluv. But it seems like you aren't even willing to do that. You just want to complain, forever. And no, I don't consider complaining on the forums to be "taking action." It's all talk.
Strangeluv contributed. He wrote articles and reviews and made games and did Let's Tries. He was a good member. It is a shame he got himself banned. You could pick up where he left off, but you'd rather complain that "the Man" is trying to keep you down.
You could contribute to the betterment of this community. You have, thus far, actively chosen not to do so. You could change this. But we both know you won't.
I hope you prove me wrong.
So you're not going to actually make an effort to try to improve anything? Even when invited by the users to try to make a difference you still decline? Even acknowledging all the cool features RMN has (reviews, game pages, blogs) you're not going to take advantage of any of it to try to make a difference?
All I see in that MD post is more soap-boxing/complaining. Can you see why this kind of attitude is ultimately self-defeating? All you do is complain about the state of things, yet when invited to try to promote new ideas, to try to instigate change, to try to make a difference, you decline or pass the buck. That's not how things work in a user-generated community.
I know you had bad experiences at GW or whatever and felt like your ideas/articles/whatnot didn't get the attention you thought they deserved. But this isn't GW and you can't cling to that bitterness forever. We both know you're a smart guy with good ideas, but you won't share them because "people don't want to hear them anyway." You know that's not true. A lot of people get great responses when talking about game design on their blogs. It worked for TFT and Strangeluv. But it seems like you aren't even willing to do that. You just want to complain, forever. And no, I don't consider complaining on the forums to be "taking action." It's all talk.
Strangeluv contributed. He wrote articles and reviews and made games and did Let's Tries. He was a good member. It is a shame he got himself banned. You could pick up where he left off, but you'd rather complain that "the Man" is trying to keep you down.
You could contribute to the betterment of this community. You have, thus far, actively chosen not to do so. You could change this. But we both know you won't.
I hope you prove me wrong.
author=Solitayre
@Ciel
So you're not going to actually make an effort to try to improve anything? Even when invited by the users to try to make a difference you still decline?
ahahahah, i think you missed the part where i exhaustively tried for years in both public and private discussions and typing massive dissertations on the forum about what needs to change and privately addressing all the people in charge at length on multiple occasions, all of whom agreed with everything i said. i've done what i can BRO! there is a point where you have to realize it's hopeless
http://rpgmaker.net/games/1358/blog/4154/
here is an example of it 'working for tft', amazing content rich blog post that disappeared off the front page within 2 minutes by 'made map today' posts and ultimately received almost no attention. sorry but having no form of content visibility management in a high-volume user generated content site is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW and its potential to negatively impact the site should not be underestimated.
'pageviews have gone up!' ~ monopoly character
how is the md post self defeating?? by discussing these issues in a public venue i am helping promote awareness. why is it helping change things if i post it on rmn but not if i post it somewhere else? i 'promote new ideas' more times per second than most people do in their entire lives XDXDXD
Fifteen replies is a lot for something that was pushed off the front page in two minutes, and a lot for this site in general. If your concern is whether that's right or that you feel content doesn't get the attention it deserves, there is a new build in the works for RMN4, which I understand takes a lot of your concerns into account. Just because it isn't done yet doesn't mean nothing is ever going to be done about it ever. The people working on it are busy guys and can't devote every second to fixing every problem anyone can point out.
Regarding game design, you can't start at the top and cause some kind of global shift in how people think about game design. This is the equivalent of a third party candidate running for president thinking they can immediately and radically shift the course of the country by taking a short cut to relevance. Sometimes you have to start smaller, create a "base" (which you already have!) to promote your ideas, and just generally share and get your ideas about game design out there. People who like your ideas will adopt your design theory into their own. I've seen it happen. The best way to do this is with actual game design, not forum posts.
Regarding game design, you can't start at the top and cause some kind of global shift in how people think about game design. This is the equivalent of a third party candidate running for president thinking they can immediately and radically shift the course of the country by taking a short cut to relevance. Sometimes you have to start smaller, create a "base" (which you already have!) to promote your ideas, and just generally share and get your ideas about game design out there. People who like your ideas will adopt your design theory into their own. I've seen it happen. The best way to do this is with actual game design, not forum posts.
updated my last post if you didn't see it. btw all those replies on tft's blog were the same people bumping it with spam posts in hopes of getting it noticed. and most of the people doing that only saw it because he linked it in IRC.
@Ciel
So, you want the users of RMN to see the content you deem important or great, but god forbid they unintentionally knock it off the front page.
and I know that's not your full point, I get you want quality control, so that great looking games don't get bumped by the next generic knight quest.
But with so many users posting all the time of all different quality of blogs/games it's kind of messed up that only blogs that you deem worthy are allowed to stay on the mainpage.
I think everyone would like that kind of attention for their games, even the ones that aren't as good as tft's, or whoever else.
So, you want the users of RMN to see the content you deem important or great, but god forbid they unintentionally knock it off the front page.
and I know that's not your full point, I get you want quality control, so that great looking games don't get bumped by the next generic knight quest.
But with so many users posting all the time of all different quality of blogs/games it's kind of messed up that only blogs that you deem worthy are allowed to stay on the mainpage.
I think everyone would like that kind of attention for their games, even the ones that aren't as good as tft's, or whoever else.
Honestly, Ciel, I like a lot of your ideas and definitely agree with some of what you say. My only concern is the method and culture - like you said, you're past caring. It happens in every organization. Sometimes you just have to move on to better things if you're beyond frustrated. I'm sure #shmup will continue working on enjoyable games despite my differences in opinion regarding the group's culture. I like the people and their work - but not the culture, if that makes any sense.
Craze definitely has followers on this site, probably because he backs up his theory with games. I may not enjoy all of his work, and fundamentally disagree with him on a few fronts, but I at least appreciate the effort.
I believe we need to continue raising the standard across the board - blogs, reviews, etc. We have some great users on this site, and I think the right kind of motivation could spark them into action. They need to feel some kind of accomplishment that matches their effort: the "valence" and "instrumentality" factors. They also need self confidence - they need to believe that they can make the site better and contribute wonderful things (the "expectancy" factor).
I understand what you mean about content moderation; however, different people have different opinions on what is "quality" and what is not, so such a practice can get very subjective and may even disrupt the goings-on. It would take someone willing to be neutral and very active to moderate such content - perhaps on a day by day basis. It would also take other members of staff to substitute if necessary or approve content uploaded by the manager him/herself. Other rules would have to apply, of course.
Wikipedia handles content moderation in an (in my opinion) awesome way: the content generates at midnight every day, and it includes snippets such as "in the news", "today's featured article", "did you know? (excerpt from the most recent articles, as approved by a group of consensus-driven moderators)", and so on. Of course, Wikipedia is a much larger and proactive site - these factors alone make daily content visibility management much more practical on that site.
But then again, Wikipedia deals in far more daily updates than we do. A small group of people could probably handle it on a rotating basis.
This is turning into a brainstorming post, heh.
Craze definitely has followers on this site, probably because he backs up his theory with games. I may not enjoy all of his work, and fundamentally disagree with him on a few fronts, but I at least appreciate the effort.
I believe we need to continue raising the standard across the board - blogs, reviews, etc. We have some great users on this site, and I think the right kind of motivation could spark them into action. They need to feel some kind of accomplishment that matches their effort: the "valence" and "instrumentality" factors. They also need self confidence - they need to believe that they can make the site better and contribute wonderful things (the "expectancy" factor).
I understand what you mean about content moderation; however, different people have different opinions on what is "quality" and what is not, so such a practice can get very subjective and may even disrupt the goings-on. It would take someone willing to be neutral and very active to moderate such content - perhaps on a day by day basis. It would also take other members of staff to substitute if necessary or approve content uploaded by the manager him/herself. Other rules would have to apply, of course.
Wikipedia handles content moderation in an (in my opinion) awesome way: the content generates at midnight every day, and it includes snippets such as "in the news", "today's featured article", "did you know? (excerpt from the most recent articles, as approved by a group of consensus-driven moderators)", and so on. Of course, Wikipedia is a much larger and proactive site - these factors alone make daily content visibility management much more practical on that site.
But then again, Wikipedia deals in far more daily updates than we do. A small group of people could probably handle it on a rotating basis.
This is turning into a brainstorming post, heh.
It's a complicated issue because RMN exists to serve two purposes: promoting great content and helping struggling developers. If you only highlight the best content in the community, then the people who need help and feedback are likely to be overlooked.
author=Sailerius
It's a complicated issue because RMN exists to serve two purposes: promoting great content and helping struggling developers. If you only highlight the best content in the community, then the people who need help and feedback are likely to be overlooked.
It can definitely decrease motivation depending on the person. However, striving to have content appear on the main page could serve as a motivator for others. It's a tricky situation, because like you said, we want newcomers to get exposure and feedback as well.
Sai, your networking skills are excellent, and that's definitely helped you progress through Vacant Sky. You've gained the feedback through self-initiated exposure, and that has helped you grow. But, of course, you had to show initial potential to attract attention. We would have to consider two major factors: (1) avoiding denial of projects by creators with potential and (2) the problems with accepting bad projects period.
Quality control is definitely an issue sometimes. Ciel, none of us are saying your concerns aren't valid or don't matter. Hell, most of the things you dislike about the community are the same things I dislike about it. But there comes a point where just railing against it in fits of blind passion/rage (passionrage?) aren't effective.
This site isn't an exclusive club and everyone has a right to post material on it and have that material be visible. I'd rather this site be a place where everyone can come and learn/play games than for it to become an elitist club where only the AAA members get any attention.
In truth, however, I think the things that really deserve attention already do get it. Look at Leo and Leah. It is a game widely acclaimed in the community and beloved by users. Should it be getting more attention, do you think? What games/content should be getting more attention than it does? What about AAG? Rainbow Nightmare? There's also "The Latest" feed, and the staff can pin things there, but that requires the staff to peruse every single piece of content on the site and pick and choose good content with complete impartiality. This would just invite complaints of favoritism.
Almost every solution invites one new problem or another. I have faith that the new build will address many of them as well as it can.
This site isn't an exclusive club and everyone has a right to post material on it and have that material be visible. I'd rather this site be a place where everyone can come and learn/play games than for it to become an elitist club where only the AAA members get any attention.
In truth, however, I think the things that really deserve attention already do get it. Look at Leo and Leah. It is a game widely acclaimed in the community and beloved by users. Should it be getting more attention, do you think? What games/content should be getting more attention than it does? What about AAG? Rainbow Nightmare? There's also "The Latest" feed, and the staff can pin things there, but that requires the staff to peruse every single piece of content on the site and pick and choose good content with complete impartiality. This would just invite complaints of favoritism.
Almost every solution invites one new problem or another. I have faith that the new build will address many of them as well as it can.
author=InfectionFiles
@Ciel
So, you want the users of RMN to see the content you deem important or great
author=InfectionFiles
it's kind of messed up that only blogs that you deem worthy are allowed to stay on the mainpage.
didn't i just, as in JUST NOW 2 DIGITAL MINUTES AGO say i wanted a content visibility management system? a statement from which a personal of moderate intellect could derive 'not what ciel personally deems important'. i also mentioned the fact that i brought this problem i have to the attention of the staff, who not only agreed that it was a problem but, if you knew what you were talking about even slightly, would know that they agreed with the upvoting system and 'most popular of week/month/season system' i proposed to fix the issue. could all of these people who agreed with me mysteriously have the exact same thoughts and opinions on what is good and deserves to be visible, making me the ultimate puppetmaster of what is seen on rmn? (somehow through a system I have no control over????)
this is what i mean about trying to have a discussion with some of the people here. simply amazing. if you were wondering, infection files, the reason some people don't like you is because you make these fucking bizarre assertions based entirely on ignorance or your own fantastical misinterpretations of reality.
author=Solitayre
Quality control is definitely an issue sometimes. Ciel, none of us are saying your concerns aren't valid or don't matter. Hell, most of the things you dislike about the community are the same things I dislike about it. But there comes a point where just railing against it in fits of blind passion/rage (passionrage?) aren't effective.
leo/leah got attention because it was featured. not everything can be featured. visibility on this site is pretty much either astronomical (feature) or very low, since all the venues for content presentation other than feature are poorly designed.
also the closest i have ever come to 'blindly railing' was yesterday, because that was the point at which i decided not to bother anymore. i always always always have extremely well thought out reasoning for everything i say. now i am just posting here to burn down some incredibly inaccurate comments, which is fun for me i guess i lov e to debate!
author=DeckillerIf I sounded like I was complaining, I wasn't. I personally think that RMN does a pretty good job of balancing the two roles it serves. The monthly feature as well as the weekly feature of notable blog posts (what happened to that?) does a good job of highlighting quality content. I think Ciel's complaint boils down to the fact that most blog posts aren't high quality, so they get drowned out by the larger volume of lower quality ones. That might be true, but quality content is featured elsewhere. Furthermore, quality games attract subscribers, so anyone who's interested in the game will get an automatic notification regardless of how long the blog post stays on the front page.author=SaileriusIt can definitely decrease motivation depending on the person. However, striving to have content appear on the main page could serve as a motivator for others. It's a tricky situation, because like you said, we want newcomers to get exposure and feedback as well.
It's a complicated issue because RMN exists to serve two purposes: promoting great content and helping struggling developers. If you only highlight the best content in the community, then the people who need help and feedback are likely to be overlooked.
Sai, your networking skills are excellent, and that's definitely helped you progress through Vacant Sky. You've gained the feedback through self-initiated exposure, and that has helped you grow. But, of course, you had to show initial potential to attract attention. We would have to consider two major factors: (1) avoiding denial of projects by creators with potential and (2) the problems with accepting bad projects period.
author=Saileriusauthor=DeckillerIf I sounded like I was complaining, I wasn't. I personally think that RMN does a pretty good job of balancing the two roles it serves. The monthly feature as well as the weekly feature of notable blog posts (what happened to that?) does a good job of highlighting quality content. I think Ciel's complaint boils down to the fact that most blog posts aren't high quality, so they get drowned out by the larger volume of lower quality ones. That might be true, but quality content is featured elsewhere. Furthermore, quality games attract subscribers, so anyone who's interested in the game will get an automatic notification regardless of how long the blog post stays on the front page.author=SaileriusIt can definitely decrease motivation depending on the person. However, striving to have content appear on the main page could serve as a motivator for others. It's a tricky situation, because like you said, we want newcomers to get exposure and feedback as well.
It's a complicated issue because RMN exists to serve two purposes: promoting great content and helping struggling developers. If you only highlight the best content in the community, then the people who need help and feedback are likely to be overlooked.
Sai, your networking skills are excellent, and that's definitely helped you progress through Vacant Sky. You've gained the feedback through self-initiated exposure, and that has helped you grow. But, of course, you had to show initial potential to attract attention. We would have to consider two major factors: (1) avoiding denial of projects by creators with potential and (2) the problems with accepting bad projects period.
The same definitely applies to reviews and articles, though I think we've been doing a
author=Ciel
leo/leah got attention because it was featured. not everything can be featured. visibility on this site is pretty much either astronomical (feature) or very low, since all the venues for content presentation other than feature are poorly designed.
I just want to put it out on the table that I agree with quite a bit with what you are saying, Ciel. However, somehow, and I'm not sure I even deserve it, but my game, Chronology, an unfinished game mind you, has gotten quite a bit of attention since I put it up. It's consistently pretty high in the sites visibility ratings for the games here, and it has quite a few comments on the blogs, the pages, and the images. I feel kinda bad since I couldn't work on it for a long while and it's only recently where I can say 'yeah it's gonna get done', but I mean, it can happen.
But like I said, I do think we could improve visibility a lot, but until then, there's hope for people who want their product out there. Chronology enjoys attention, somehow.
