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RELIGION IN GAMES
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Thiamor
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Saya
30
Wait, what? Since when did "religion" become "the Catholic Church"? I thought religion was about love, mercy, sacrifice, and transcending human vices.
My main annoyance with RPGs is the whole "God is evil, let's go kill him" plot. Most of the time it comes off as cheap and stupid.
Long rant ahead, beware:
Another thing: Christianity is over-used. Use Islam or Judaism instead. You can even incorporate elements of Buddhism and Hinduism. The thing is though, most people are too lazy to actually do research about these religions (or are afraid of offending people, which they shouldn't be, because plenty of portrayals of Christian religion offends Christian people, and there's nothing you can do about it). I personally, would love a change of pace.
Evil churches are overdone. Evil gods are overdone. Try something new.
I also want to say that religion can be used symbolically too. Rather than flat-out portraying a church, you can use names and terms that your audience is familiar with in order to help reinforce your theme. But... this can easily turn into overkill if the symbols don't have anything to attach themselves too.
Erm... I liked Final Fantasy 7. Once I began to understand it, I could see some Christian themes in it-- in fact, I believe that the game does a better job portraying Christianity versus some other games that actually have a religion akin to Christianity. The ancients are pretty much Jews in Space. Aeris dies (okay, unwillingly, she probably didn't know she was going to die) performing a ritual that was supposed to protect the planet from Meteor. Cloud & co. go beat up Sephiroth, but Holy doesn't work, instead merging with Meteor. Then the Lifestream comes out and saves everyone.
For me, the drama resembled the Christian dilemma of salvation for works or by grace-- Salvation by deeds (such as beating up Sephiroth and maybe even depending on Holy) didn't work. It was by grace (Aeris's death enabled her to control the Lifestream to repel Meteor) that saved everyone.
Now THAT is a good example of religious subtext in games. But then again, it's the interpretation that matters.
My main annoyance with RPGs is the whole "God is evil, let's go kill him" plot. Most of the time it comes off as cheap and stupid.
Long rant ahead, beware:
I've always felt that Christian religion was out of place in RPGs. Because if the God in the religion is truly the God of the "real world", as Christians believe, he wouldn't let Cthulhu terrorize humanity. Sure, there's things like genocides, evil empires, and wars, but that's on a very different scale. And God isn't stupid, he wouldn't have one "chosen one" and his ragtag team of misfits be destined to slay the evil overlord, when there are plenty of willing nations and armies ready to fight in the name of justice, even if it is corrupted by human ideals. 'Sides, a Christian person wouldn't worry too much about grand scale events-- he would do his part, yes, but Jesus already saved the world and everything is in God's hands. The conflict is already over. Focus on saving those around you, about those you truly care about.
But again, most typically, the God in video games is not the real God, so this doesn't really matter. It's just my conclusions on the fallacies of video games, and that's how the "real world" works. We don't have destined heroes with magic swords that kill gods.
But again, most typically, the God in video games is not the real God, so this doesn't really matter. It's just my conclusions on the fallacies of video games, and that's how the "real world" works. We don't have destined heroes with magic swords that kill gods.
Another thing: Christianity is over-used. Use Islam or Judaism instead. You can even incorporate elements of Buddhism and Hinduism. The thing is though, most people are too lazy to actually do research about these religions (or are afraid of offending people, which they shouldn't be, because plenty of portrayals of Christian religion offends Christian people, and there's nothing you can do about it). I personally, would love a change of pace.
Evil churches are overdone. Evil gods are overdone. Try something new.
I also want to say that religion can be used symbolically too. Rather than flat-out portraying a church, you can use names and terms that your audience is familiar with in order to help reinforce your theme. But... this can easily turn into overkill if the symbols don't have anything to attach themselves too.
Erm... I liked Final Fantasy 7. Once I began to understand it, I could see some Christian themes in it-- in fact, I believe that the game does a better job portraying Christianity versus some other games that actually have a religion akin to Christianity. The ancients are pretty much Jews in Space. Aeris dies (okay, unwillingly, she probably didn't know she was going to die) performing a ritual that was supposed to protect the planet from Meteor. Cloud & co. go beat up Sephiroth, but Holy doesn't work, instead merging with Meteor. Then the Lifestream comes out and saves everyone.
For me, the drama resembled the Christian dilemma of salvation for works or by grace-- Salvation by deeds (such as beating up Sephiroth and maybe even depending on Holy) didn't work. It was by grace (Aeris's death enabled her to control the Lifestream to repel Meteor) that saved everyone.
Now THAT is a good example of religious subtext in games. But then again, it's the interpretation that matters.
You'll have to excuse F-G; he has yet to learn that ideals do not equate to practices or vice-versa.
I'm not sure what point you're even trying to make anymore. For the purposes of this discussion about hypothetical religions in video games how about we drop the strawman atheist act, hmm?
Dyhalto
7536
author=Fallen-Griever
I just find the idea that religion being about peace and love really, really funny given that many of the world's religions were propogated for the purpose of the few controlling and manipulating the many.
You're conflicting the faith and the institution that's built up around the faith.
When you look at something like the Vatican then, yeah, it's all about a powerful political organization controlling the masses through fear. But they do it by middle-manning people's connection with God. The whole thing about Jesus was that he was preaching that people didn't need to go into a special building and give wealthy men their money in order to be loved by God. That's what the part about him throwing the merchants and money changers out of the temple was about.
There's nothing wrong with connecting with your spiritual self. Some people do it by identifying with an invisible man, some identify with Jesus (the original Hippy), and some are self-actualized and identify with themselves.
I Think religions are basically a search for sense (human life, in this world, etc.) as well as a powerful way of civilizing human societies(thou shallt : not kill, not steal, etc.)
(i don't know how much this is in the topic?!)@F-G : i agree for zeitgeist, seems some kind of sect!)
(i don't know how much this is in the topic?!)@F-G : i agree for zeitgeist, seems some kind of sect!)
author=Fallen-GrieverI thought religion was about love, mercy, sacrifice, and transcending human vices.AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
This^^
EnderX
562
RE: The philosophical argument-
Religion is mankind's quest to know/serve* God/the gods. In some cases, this does involve aiding others, showing compassion and kindness, etc. In others, it involves oppression, violence, and their ilk. The ultimate key to this is that it's mankind, attempting to do so on mankind's terms. "If I'm kind enough to people, God will like me!" ~ "If we rip enough hearts out, maybe Huitzilopochtli won't crispy-fry us!"
*Option 3, 'control', falls into the realm of magic, even if gussied up with the trappings of religion.
RE: The game-dev discussion-
As noted by others, religion can be a useful tool, but yeah, the 'ebil kirk' mechanism is overdrawn these days. If you do insist on using it, I would recommend amoral rather than evil - 'Grant me power', rather than directly, knowingly worshiping something admittedly evil. From what I've read, even LaVey's Church of Satan doesn't admit to that.
The interesting part comes when multiple religious groups collide - especially since, depending on the theological climate of the area, one or more will probably be able to call on secular assistance that another might not. Which way that falls, and how it is handled, can place interesting shifts in the local thecology.
Religion is mankind's quest to know/serve* God/the gods. In some cases, this does involve aiding others, showing compassion and kindness, etc. In others, it involves oppression, violence, and their ilk. The ultimate key to this is that it's mankind, attempting to do so on mankind's terms. "If I'm kind enough to people, God will like me!" ~ "If we rip enough hearts out, maybe Huitzilopochtli won't crispy-fry us!"
*Option 3, 'control', falls into the realm of magic, even if gussied up with the trappings of religion.
RE: The game-dev discussion-
As noted by others, religion can be a useful tool, but yeah, the 'ebil kirk' mechanism is overdrawn these days. If you do insist on using it, I would recommend amoral rather than evil - 'Grant me power', rather than directly, knowingly worshiping something admittedly evil. From what I've read, even LaVey's Church of Satan doesn't admit to that.
The interesting part comes when multiple religious groups collide - especially since, depending on the theological climate of the area, one or more will probably be able to call on secular assistance that another might not. Which way that falls, and how it is handled, can place interesting shifts in the local thecology.
Crystalgate
694
Personally, I find that the evil religions commit in video games is hard to believe. If I were to read in a newspaper that a cardinal was involved in drug dealing and trafficking, I would believe that. Also, if a major religious figurehead had to decide between either taking the action that best represents what his religion is supposed to stand for or the action that serves best to keep him in power and he chooses the latter, that wouldn't surprise me either. However, if I read that the pope is secretly worshiping Satan and is daily performing rituals that are supposed to call him into our world, I would be very skeptic. The type of evils religions commit in video games tend to be of the latter type.
Maybe this is just a consequence of video games scaling up threats to world destruction. Nevertheless, I find making a point about religions by making the religious leaders worship an evil demon just as valid as promoting love and friendship by creating an evil entity that feeds on negative emotions.
There's also the problem that the evil religion is often poorly foreshadowed. A good sign that the religion is evil is that it's big (often encompassing most of the world) and that you keep hearing how wonderful the religion, or a key figure in the religion, is. This isn't even supposed to be foreshadowing.
At this rate, an evil religion isn't useful as a plot twist. Very few will be surprised. It can still serve as a plot element, but I recommend against making it a plot twist.
Maybe this is just a consequence of video games scaling up threats to world destruction. Nevertheless, I find making a point about religions by making the religious leaders worship an evil demon just as valid as promoting love and friendship by creating an evil entity that feeds on negative emotions.
There's also the problem that the evil religion is often poorly foreshadowed. A good sign that the religion is evil is that it's big (often encompassing most of the world) and that you keep hearing how wonderful the religion, or a key figure in the religion, is. This isn't even supposed to be foreshadowing.
At this rate, an evil religion isn't useful as a plot twist. Very few will be surprised. It can still serve as a plot element, but I recommend against making it a plot twist.
the pope is secretly worshiping Satan and is daily performing rituals that are supposed to call him into our world
I think I found a basis for my next game. :)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In my game Vindication, the religion plays a relatively minor role, all things considered. Its entire presence is in the backstory, and understanding it is not necessary to understand the rest of the plot. However, I'm pretty pleased with how it's handled.
So, centuries ago, demons invaded the world, and as any gamer would expect they are scheduled to return right around the beginning of the game. One of the heroes who defeated the demons later established the church, not as a way of teaching the masses about morality or the afterlife, but as an army of holy knights to guard the world against potential future demonic threats in the generations to come.
However, over the course of history, the purpose of the church gradually changes. First, its power and influence lead it to become a powerful nation, greedy with human ambition, and its armies take over most of the world in the name of God. The Empire is formed as a puppet of the church. Then, the Empire wants to rule without the church telling it what to do, and after a bloody civil war it officially splits off from the church, becoming an independent nation. The church is left in a powerless position, and only the devout remain dedicated to it. With the Empire's secular teachings, the devout dwindle. By the time the game begins, the church still exists, but has no army, no power, and virtually no believers. Today's people, even priests, treat its scriptures as old stories that are designed to teach about morality, rather than as records of actual events. And so the demons enter the world unhindered, and no one recognizes them for what they are.
The reason I like it is because A) I feel like the fact that the religion isn't evil is a plot twist, and B) I feel like this is a pretty realistic series of evolutions to happen to a major religion over the course of 600+ years.
However, I probably won't include any kind of religion in my upcoming game. Partially because I don't want that game's plot to feel like a worldwide crisis, I want to focus on the characters and I want any evil the villains perpetrate to be individual, local events. And that means, no religion unless it's a smallish cult.
So, centuries ago, demons invaded the world, and as any gamer would expect they are scheduled to return right around the beginning of the game. One of the heroes who defeated the demons later established the church, not as a way of teaching the masses about morality or the afterlife, but as an army of holy knights to guard the world against potential future demonic threats in the generations to come.
However, over the course of history, the purpose of the church gradually changes. First, its power and influence lead it to become a powerful nation, greedy with human ambition, and its armies take over most of the world in the name of God. The Empire is formed as a puppet of the church. Then, the Empire wants to rule without the church telling it what to do, and after a bloody civil war it officially splits off from the church, becoming an independent nation. The church is left in a powerless position, and only the devout remain dedicated to it. With the Empire's secular teachings, the devout dwindle. By the time the game begins, the church still exists, but has no army, no power, and virtually no believers. Today's people, even priests, treat its scriptures as old stories that are designed to teach about morality, rather than as records of actual events. And so the demons enter the world unhindered, and no one recognizes them for what they are.
The reason I like it is because A) I feel like the fact that the religion isn't evil is a plot twist, and B) I feel like this is a pretty realistic series of evolutions to happen to a major religion over the course of 600+ years.
However, I probably won't include any kind of religion in my upcoming game. Partially because I don't want that game's plot to feel like a worldwide crisis, I want to focus on the characters and I want any evil the villains perpetrate to be individual, local events. And that means, no religion unless it's a smallish cult.
Zeuzio
3787
The religion in my game is kind of the religion in the Dragon Quest Games, except more important to the plot. The player can perform actions such as saves and donations at church, and it's actually like a "base" for the team. The church's goal is to keep its followers on the righteous path leading to heaven by living a good life, and the game is actually called "Journey to Heaven". There actually nothing evil or malicious about this church!
The main character and his sidekick are "vessels of hope" for the church, which means that they bring good will and words to the people(missions) of their home church's region to hopefully show people the path to heaven(following the churches teachings). As the game progresses, the two characters have disagreements about the churches sincerity. It also doesn't help that a lunatic is going around causing large-scale problems the the two characters have to fix in the name of the church.
Basically, religion drives both the plot and the gameplay of my game. It been quite interesting and fun designing this thing!
The main character and his sidekick are "vessels of hope" for the church, which means that they bring good will and words to the people(missions) of their home church's region to hopefully show people the path to heaven(following the churches teachings). As the game progresses, the two characters have disagreements about the churches sincerity. It also doesn't help that a lunatic is going around causing large-scale problems the the two characters have to fix in the name of the church.
Basically, religion drives both the plot and the gameplay of my game. It been quite interesting and fun designing this thing!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
It's probably a bad sign for the medium when a church that isn't secretly controlled by demons is considered a plot twist
