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Feldschlacht IV
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Closeauthor=DarkenI realize it's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the current method and doesn't add or exacerbate any problems. And no one has suggested a better idea.author=alterego
There's no such a thing like a system that leaves no room for abuse, specially not one that is 'automatic'. People will always find a way to win the system and will do it no matter how hard it may be.
read:author=darken
Regarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse.
Pretty much, yeah.
Really there's literally no good reason not to go along with what Darken, narcodis, and I are proposing. I have yet to see a system like NG's get ganked, abused, or people's submissions treated unfairly, and I've been visiting the site for like what, ten years now?
prexus
309
The newgrounds thing sounds like it favors people who submit their work during a dry spell. I don't want to see people start pushing back premier dates just so they don't have to compete (eg. Hollywood)
author=Feldschlacht IVSounds okay to me!author=DarkenPretty much, yeah.I realize it's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the current method and doesn't add or exacerbate any problems. And no one has suggested a better idea.author=alterego
There's no such a thing like a system that leaves no room for abuse, specially not one that is 'automatic'. People will always find a way to win the system and will do it no matter how hard it may be.
read:author=darken
Regarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse.
Really there's literally no good reason not to go along with what Darken, narcodis, and I are proposing.
...but one difference I see with RMN is that we have a lot of development which ostensibly will lead to completed games.
Should people get another crack at it if they update their download and change their game to completed?
ninjaEDIT2:
Or, instead of a per game basis (ie- you get one kick at the can (frontpage) per game), we could associate it on a per game download basis. Adding a new download will get your game featured on the frontpage only ONCE, no matter how many times you update it. But if you add a second download (say, you game was completed! Upload a new download for it!), this new download will get you on the frontpage again. (the advantage of this method is that NEW downloads go through the submission queue, so staff can more actively moderate it)
EDIT:
author=prexus...well, arguably that could (and does) happen now. It is also a different problem.
The newgrounds thing sounds like it favors people who submit their work during a dry spell. I don't want to see people start pushing back premier dates just so they don't have to compete (eg. Hollywood)
Any comments on that issue guys? (is it an issue?)
author=prexus
The newgrounds thing sounds like it favors people who submit their work during a dry spell. I don't want to see people start pushing back premier dates just so they don't have to compete (eg. Hollywood)
The thing is, that there aren't very many dry spells, in NG, or here. Games are consistently uploaded and viewed one after another. Not to mention that NG's 'Last Submissions' covers the last 20 things uploaded. I'm not suggesting copying them down to a tee, because yeah, we have to adapt to our specific site and what we do, but they have the general idea down pretty well.
damn, feld replied when I did my Ninja edit:
so here it is again:
ninjaEDIT2:
Or, instead of a per game basis (ie- you get one kick at the can (frontpage) per game), we could associate it on a per game download basis. Adding a new download will get your game featured on the frontpage only ONCE, no matter how many times you update it. But if you add a second download (say, you game was completed! Upload a new download for it!), this new download will get you on the frontpage again. (the advantage of this method is that NEW downloads go through the submission queue, so staff can more actively moderate it)
so here it is again:
ninjaEDIT2:
Or, instead of a per game basis (ie- you get one kick at the can (frontpage) per game), we could associate it on a per game download basis. Adding a new download will get your game featured on the frontpage only ONCE, no matter how many times you update it. But if you add a second download (say, you game was completed! Upload a new download for it!), this new download will get you on the frontpage again. (the advantage of this method is that NEW downloads go through the submission queue, so staff can more actively moderate it)
author=kentonaauthor=Feldschlacht IVSounds okay to me!author=DarkenPretty much, yeah.I realize it's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the current method and doesn't add or exacerbate any problems. And no one has suggested a better idea.author=alterego
There's no such a thing like a system that leaves no room for abuse, specially not one that is 'automatic'. People will always find a way to win the system and will do it no matter how hard it may be.
read:author=darken
Regarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse.
Really there's literally no good reason not to go along with what Darken, narcodis, and I are proposing.
...but one difference I see with RMN is that we have a lot of development which ostensibly will lead to completed games.
Should people get another crack at it if they update their download and change their game to completed?
EDIT:author=prexus...well, arguably that could (and does) happen now. It is also a different problem.
The newgrounds thing sounds like it favors people who submit their work during a dry spell. I don't want to see people start pushing back premier dates just so they don't have to compete (eg. Hollywood)
Any comments on that issue guys? (is it an issue?)
Some things; I think that games in development deserve to be continually updated with blogs and pics and stuff, and reflected as such. Demos also deserve another bump up once they're completed as a full game. I can also understand the 'Current Discussion' on completed games having a spot as well.'
The main issue here I see are two things;
-Completed games do not deserve a bump because of a minor patch or whatever.
-Games that are getting a lot of attention, discussion, pageviews, etc should be in some sort of 'Featured/Hottest/Buzz/etc category.
To sort of view an example of how NG's handles this, check out this page for example
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/576381
For one, something that I've always found cool, if you look on the left you see stuff like
'Weekly Users' Choice – 08/09/2011
Review Crew Pick – 08/09/2011
Daily Feature – 08/08/2011'
Things like this give even nameless visitors a lot of choice and control what gets attention and what deserves to be on the spotlight based on what looks good.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I do like the idea of bumping a game to the front page only a single time, the first time it changes from in-development to completed.
Or maybe even just not putting it on the front page at all until it changes to completed. Because A) people who want to play games are typically going to vastly prefer completed ones, and B) I don't want to be unfair to people who don't submit their game until it's completed by only giving them 50% as much front page time.
Or maybe even just not putting it on the front page at all until it changes to completed. Because A) people who want to play games are typically going to vastly prefer completed ones, and B) I don't want to be unfair to people who don't submit their game until it's completed by only giving them 50% as much front page time.
Or maybe even just not putting it on the front page at all until it changes to completed. Because A) people who want to play games are typically going to vastly prefer completed ones, and B) I don't want to be unfair to people who don't submit their game until it's completed by only giving them 50% as much front page time.
I don't like this idea. This is a development site, and staying true to our modus operandi, this site serves mostly as a hub for games in development, developers, and the interested public to be able to pool discussion and interest in what they're developing. Keeping valuable games in development within some sort of view is important for us and people who will be interested in playing them in the future.
That's important. Let's not get too crazy with it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
That's fair. Maybe have two sections on the front page, one for the latest five games in development and one for the latest five completed games. You're absolutely right, I'm just worried that the vast majority of games never reach completion, and someone who waits until they're done to post their game will only have it on the front page for a few hours or days.
I wonder what percent do finish their games, actually...
I wonder what percent do finish their games, actually...
author=Feldschlacht IV
I don't like this idea. This is a development site, and staying true to our modus operandi, this site serves mostly as a hub for games in development, developers, and the interested public to be able to pool discussion and interest in what they're developing. Keeping valuable games in development within some sort of view is important for us and people who will be interested in playing them in the future.
True. But then, why agree with the quote below? When things like a new demo (think Forevers End's case) should deserve more frontpage time, imho.
author=Darken
Regarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse.
I'm not really advocating the 'checkbox' system but from those solutions suggested so far it seemed effective enough and the easiest to implement to me.
author=Kentona
maybe I should describe what we have at the moment in RMN4...
(Bunchs of cool stuff)
But then again, I guess this discussion is moot. I'll save my arguments until we see how rmn4 fares regarding these issues.
"one for the latest five games in development and one for the latest five completed games."
that seems a good solution as regards this point.
that seems a good solution as regards this point.
author=Fallen-Griever
♦ Gamepage is created for a new game.
♦ Game is only on the front-page once.
♦ Nobody notices because they're too busy with other games or because the game has only just entered development and doesn't have a tonne of flashy stuff to show off, yet.
♦ Nobody looks at the new blogs, images etc. because these things aren't on the front-page anymore and nobody subscribed when the game was on the front page.
♦ Developer loses heart.
♦ Game never gets finished.
Alternates for the last few bullet points that I'm seeing happen:
♦ With the lack of feedback, and the assumption that no comments means that there's nothing necessarily wrong, developer makes terrible, terrible game.
♦ Game gets a harsh, but necessary, .5 star review.
♦ Developer loses heart, and "ragequits".
♦ Developer tells his/her friends about how "bad" RMN is. They tell their friends, etc.
♦ RMN looses potential users, some of which have the potential to be great game makers.
author=Fallen-GrieverRegarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse.♦ Gamepage is created for a new game.
♦ Game is only on the front-page once.
♦ Nobody notices because they're too busy with other games or because the game has only just entered development and doesn't have a tonne of flashy stuff to show off, yet.
♦ Nobody looks at the new blogs, images etc. because these things aren't on the front-page anymore and nobody subscribed when the game was on the front page.
♦ Developer loses heart.
♦ Game never gets finished.
Is that what you really, really wanna happen?
New stuff - not games, stuff - deserves to be on the front-page. We are a development site, we need to help people throughout the whole of the development process, not just the very beginning and very end of it. We need to have "latest blogs" and "latest images" sections alongside the "highest rated games", "most downloads this week", "most viewed blogs this week", "most viewed images this week" and "whatever the fuck else you wanna copy from NG" sections to ensure that we can continue to aid people with their development process. Games change drastically over the course of development, it is unfair to only give games a one-time shot at being on the front-page because of this.
Newgrounds is mostly an end-product site. We are not.
author=Marrendauthor=Fallen-GrieverAlternates for the last few bullet points that I'm seeing happen:
♦ Gamepage is created for a new game.
♦ Game is only on the front-page once.
♦ Nobody notices because they're too busy with other games or because the game has only just entered development and doesn't have a tonne of flashy stuff to show off, yet.
♦ Nobody looks at the new blogs, images etc. because these things aren't on the front-page anymore and nobody subscribed when the game was on the front page.
♦ Developer loses heart.
♦ Game never gets finished.
♦ With the lack of feedback, and the assumption that no comments means that there's nothing necessarily wrong, developer makes terrible, terrible game.
♦ Game gets a harsh, but necessary, .5 star review.
♦ Developer loses heart, and "ragequits".
♦ Developer tells his/her friends about how "bad" RMN is. They tell their friends, etc.
♦ RMN looses potential users, some of which have the potential to be great game makers.
I think you have completely misunderstood what we're going for here. What are you even talking about, no one is proposing what you are saying. Read our posts again. Four or more times if you have to. Nobody is saying that a gamepage in development needs to be on the front page only once; a game can be kicked up to the top as many times as it needs to during the development phase. 'Newest Blogs' and 'Newest Images' and the like are an integral part of the site and nobody has advocated removing them ever.
However, once a game is finished, as in, the game is finally done and its main download is uploaded it's finished. Updating a completed game with a 'menu sound patch' doesn't warrant the game being put back up to the top level of view. The 'Newgrounds Model' we're proposing is simply because they do a really good job of reflecting what is currently hot among players/downloaders/views/consumers.
God damn it FG/Marrend it seems as if what we're saying completely flew over your heads. Holy fuck. What happened here?
prexus
309
The 'Once Only' on the front page thing leads people to change the way they present their games.
a) People are going to wait until they are further in development to showcase their game which will lead to:
-con- Lower quality games due to lack of criticism from the community at early points in development
-con- Less activity because games often don't reach this point without encouragement
-pro- More serious game makers are going to be showcasing their games
-pro- There will be more of the game to criticize, making for more informed help
b) People are going to post their game page info on the forum, asking if they should upload it yet or looking for help as their gamepage is old and lost:
-con- This is against forum policy and will require extra moderation
-pro- While game-pages on the forum are frowned upon, you can't argue that if someone's gamepage gets lost in the website and he can't bump it back up to get help with something, that he shouldn't try to get help on the forums instead
edit after feld updated his post I am a little more informed on what is being proposed. I didn't realize this was more about completed games being updated with minor patches to get more face-time. I thought it was more about the Screenshots section being flooded with people's updates. I'll leave my post incase it's helpful in anyway but realize that it was misinformed.
a) People are going to wait until they are further in development to showcase their game which will lead to:
-con- Lower quality games due to lack of criticism from the community at early points in development
-con- Less activity because games often don't reach this point without encouragement
-pro- More serious game makers are going to be showcasing their games
-pro- There will be more of the game to criticize, making for more informed help
b) People are going to post their game page info on the forum, asking if they should upload it yet or looking for help as their gamepage is old and lost:
-con- This is against forum policy and will require extra moderation
-pro- While game-pages on the forum are frowned upon, you can't argue that if someone's gamepage gets lost in the website and he can't bump it back up to get help with something, that he shouldn't try to get help on the forums instead
edit after feld updated his post I am a little more informed on what is being proposed. I didn't realize this was more about completed games being updated with minor patches to get more face-time. I thought it was more about the Screenshots section being flooded with people's updates. I'll leave my post incase it's helpful in anyway but realize that it was misinformed.
'Once Only' should be for completed downloads only. Games in development can get shown as many times as the developer updates it. New blogs and the such will still be showcased on the front page even for completed games.
I really don't think you have read this or at least understood it.
author=Fallen-Griever
Feld, I read this. The thing I quoted. It's in the thing you quoted.
"Regarding newgrounds, they pretty much give everyone one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar. You upload your first download, bam that's it, a new demo or missing sound effect patch does not bump it up again. Fresh games stay on there longer and it's impossible to abuse."
I really don't think you have read this or at least understood it.
prexus
309
It also says 'one chance to be on the "new submissions" sidebar' which confused me, because that to me sounds like the development screenshots/blog posts (as those are submissions as well as download files)
BUT NOW THAT IT'S CLARIFIED
BUT NOW THAT IT'S CLARIFIED
