DISCUSSING REPLAY VALUE
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Replay value is widely considered as desirable and often mentioned in game reviews and advertisement as a mean to attract more players. The main point of replayability is to rouse the players' interest in starting the game all over again after completion.
What do you think of replay value?
What makes you come back for more and start a game all over again?
What games do you think have good or bad replay value and why?
What do you think of replay value?
What makes you come back for more and start a game all over again?
What games do you think have good or bad replay value and why?
I feel replay value is strongly tied to length of the game. If a game is an epically long 100+ hour adventure, I am not likely to replay it. I am going to continue playing the first game file I make until it is perfect and I have unlocked or collected everything I can unlock and collect before beating it and then will be done. If a game is short enough and has differences in it I will replay it again and again until I have beaten it every which way.
The only time I think a game has true replay value, where I will actually play it again and again on occasion, is if it is some kind of sandbox game. Or a first person shooter. Those have great replay value because you are playing it for the gameplay and nothing else really. A game that is fun to play, not just fun to beat or learn the story, has good replay value. Something like Halo, Oblivion, Terraria, Minecraft, Mario, etc... It's just fun to play.
The only time I think a game has true replay value, where I will actually play it again and again on occasion, is if it is some kind of sandbox game. Or a first person shooter. Those have great replay value because you are playing it for the gameplay and nothing else really. A game that is fun to play, not just fun to beat or learn the story, has good replay value. Something like Halo, Oblivion, Terraria, Minecraft, Mario, etc... It's just fun to play.
Tactics Ogre is a shining example of replay value. The overall story is the same, but the path of getting there is different and it also affects your party composition. As a result, players will aspire to have a save file for each of the Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic routes. The Romancing SaGa series and SaGa Frontier 1 have a lot of replay value too, though the playthroughs tend to be very samey after the second or third run. If you want genuine replay value, story progression and gameplay customization/versatility are necessary.
Apart from that, like Hoddmimir said, time spent is a big factor. Only the most dedicated or nostalgia-induced fan will replay a 150+ hour epic, but 3-hour little Wanderers from Ys III might see action on many people's Sunday afternoons.
Another quasi-example of replay value is Chrono Trigger, but that's just because it was such an awesome game for it's time :D
Apart from that, like Hoddmimir said, time spent is a big factor. Only the most dedicated or nostalgia-induced fan will replay a 150+ hour epic, but 3-hour little Wanderers from Ys III might see action on many people's Sunday afternoons.
Another quasi-example of replay value is Chrono Trigger, but that's just because it was such an awesome game for it's time :D
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
To me, replay value is another way of saying that there's permanently missable stuff in the game. If a thing I didn't do yet can still be done in my original playthrough, I'm not going to start over. I'm going to do it in my original playthrough. I will only consider starting over if something has been permanently missed - whether this takes the form of Star Fox style forks where you have to choose one mission or the other, something like a blue magic spell that can only be obtained during a specific point in the game, forced class choices in a game where you can't change class later, or just getting a high score in every stage.
I definitely universally appreciate the ability to go back and do any of these things without starting over from scratch, especially in an RPG where the time and effort I've put into the game has given me lasting benefits that I would have to give up. In Star Fox, you aren't any different or more powerful at the end than you are at the beginning, so I don't mind starting over so much - though I am thankful that it doesn't delete your medals and high scores every time you start over. Relatedly, I find a new game+ mode to be a pretty decent compromise, even if not everything carries over.
I definitely universally appreciate the ability to go back and do any of these things without starting over from scratch, especially in an RPG where the time and effort I've put into the game has given me lasting benefits that I would have to give up. In Star Fox, you aren't any different or more powerful at the end than you are at the beginning, so I don't mind starting over so much - though I am thankful that it doesn't delete your medals and high scores every time you start over. Relatedly, I find a new game+ mode to be a pretty decent compromise, even if not everything carries over.
Yeah, I am a big fan of New Game +
I do like games that deliberately force you to choose between A or B, where the other becomes permanently missed, as long as those kind of choices are significant, there aren't too many occurrances of them (like, say 5 tops) and (most importantly) the game is good to begin with. I am also a huge sucker for classes in RPGs.
For example, in KOTOR I & II I played those games 3-4 times each because of they are awesome games, the class choices you get at the start, the choice mid-game for what kind of jedi you want to be and the whole "good path vs. evil path". I had fun playing the games over and over with a variety of different builds.
I do like games that deliberately force you to choose between A or B, where the other becomes permanently missed, as long as those kind of choices are significant, there aren't too many occurrances of them (like, say 5 tops) and (most importantly) the game is good to begin with. I am also a huge sucker for classes in RPGs.
For example, in KOTOR I & II I played those games 3-4 times each because of they are awesome games, the class choices you get at the start, the choice mid-game for what kind of jedi you want to be and the whole "good path vs. evil path". I had fun playing the games over and over with a variety of different builds.
The Suikoden Series is what comes to mind with Reply Value.
Because of all of the optional characters that you can get, yet many can be permanently missed if something is done wrong or at the wrong time. Which makes it where you cannot getback.
Like, for an example:
Because of all of the optional characters that you can get, yet many can be permanently missed if something is done wrong or at the wrong time. Which makes it where you cannot get
Gremio
Like, for an example:
You step on a guy's plants and break them. He will not join you ever. If you don't do it, he joins you the moment you ask him to join.
I'm all about replayability. It's just about the thing I value most as a player, and strive for most as a developer. These are the main approaches I can think of:
1. Selection of races, classes, or builds, which affect the entire playing experience in fundamental ways.
2. Story branching based on player choices.
3. Extensive use of randomization.
4. Inclusion of an element of player-to-player interaction, including competition.
5. Unlockables, achievements, high score boards, and other incentives to get good at the game.
6. Optional quests/areas to explore.
7. Game content can be expanded.
My favorite games, whatever their genre, all do one or more of these things well.
I'm nowhere near the end of Dark Souls, but I know I'm gonna be replaying it mostly because of 1 and a little bit of 4.
1. Selection of races, classes, or builds, which affect the entire playing experience in fundamental ways.
2. Story branching based on player choices.
3. Extensive use of randomization.
4. Inclusion of an element of player-to-player interaction, including competition.
5. Unlockables, achievements, high score boards, and other incentives to get good at the game.
6. Optional quests/areas to explore.
7. Game content can be expanded.
My favorite games, whatever their genre, all do one or more of these things well.
I'm nowhere near the end of Dark Souls, but I know I'm gonna be replaying it mostly because of 1 and a little bit of 4.
Replayability can sort of be divided into two groups. There's the story-based replayability where you can be locked out of content while playing and a replay will open that up for you and let you explore alternate paths.
Then there's the gameplay replayability. Which means that it's an open sandbox where you have loads of gameplay options and/or factions to play. Strategy games for example. (I'm thinking Civ and the like, not the ones with a linear single player campaign.) Or sports games, or any other game that you can basically play in so many different ways it has automatic replayability.
Of course other games also can have replayability if they're good enough. I mean Resident Evil 4 didn't have a whole lot of replayability yet I've played it a couple of times, similarily I remember with Max Payne 2, which I played through, in succession, on every difficulty level.
Of these I almost prefer the second variant. Where the gameplay is good enough to play through a bunch of times and there's always new exciting things to discover. However I also like the first one a lot, though mostly because of the fact that every person's playthrough is slightly different. So discussions about the game can be very interesting. It's more the potential for replayability that is more exciting than actually replaying the game.
I think this is mostly because the opening of the story-based branching games is often exactly the same, it tends to take a couple of hours or so of playing until the differences show themselves. While in faction-based replayability you can just pick a different faction and with luck it'll be different and if not then maybe your starting location will be different! So many variables to tweak!
Then there's the gameplay replayability. Which means that it's an open sandbox where you have loads of gameplay options and/or factions to play. Strategy games for example. (I'm thinking Civ and the like, not the ones with a linear single player campaign.) Or sports games, or any other game that you can basically play in so many different ways it has automatic replayability.
Of course other games also can have replayability if they're good enough. I mean Resident Evil 4 didn't have a whole lot of replayability yet I've played it a couple of times, similarily I remember with Max Payne 2, which I played through, in succession, on every difficulty level.
Of these I almost prefer the second variant. Where the gameplay is good enough to play through a bunch of times and there's always new exciting things to discover. However I also like the first one a lot, though mostly because of the fact that every person's playthrough is slightly different. So discussions about the game can be very interesting. It's more the potential for replayability that is more exciting than actually replaying the game.
I think this is mostly because the opening of the story-based branching games is often exactly the same, it tends to take a couple of hours or so of playing until the differences show themselves. While in faction-based replayability you can just pick a different faction and with luck it'll be different and if not then maybe your starting location will be different! So many variables to tweak!
I love games which I can play over and over. There are games I've played over five times, a lot of them taking over 20 hours to beat.
Some a lot of games trouts elements that are supposed to add replay value, but they don't seem to matter to me. For example, I've played Kingdom Hearts over ten times and even though you can select three different paths (which aren't that dramatic different though) I choose the Staff most of the times.
What matters to me is that the game is really fun and doesn't have any "bumps" in it. With "bumps" I mean something that feels difficult to me to get trough, something I wish I could just skip. One example is the heavy story focus at the beginning on Final Fantasy X. I can stand the relative cutscene heavy game otherwise, but at the first six hour (quite a long time IMO) there's just to much cutscene and to little action. Otherwise I would have played the game a lot more than I did.
Some a lot of games trouts elements that are supposed to add replay value, but they don't seem to matter to me. For example, I've played Kingdom Hearts over ten times and even though you can select three different paths (which aren't that dramatic different though) I choose the Staff most of the times.
What matters to me is that the game is really fun and doesn't have any "bumps" in it. With "bumps" I mean something that feels difficult to me to get trough, something I wish I could just skip. One example is the heavy story focus at the beginning on Final Fantasy X. I can stand the relative cutscene heavy game otherwise, but at the first six hour (quite a long time IMO) there's just to much cutscene and to little action. Otherwise I would have played the game a lot more than I did.
I've played through the Ace Attorney series at least five times despite the games being totally linear.
Just make an engaging game and replay value will follow. Screw lackluster multiple endings.
Just make an engaging game and replay value will follow. Screw lackluster multiple endings.
I should say first off that I don't think community games have as great a need for replay value as professional games do. All that anyone could ask for is that people play their game once from beginning to end and that should make you happy. For the most part, we like to play a variety of games to give many designers their fair shake, and we have less time to do that if we're just playing one game over and over.
One factor that makes me want to replay games later is when I get to the end and think "now that I understand the strategies, if I replay the game again with good strategy, I think might be able to beat it in 20% of the time and have a much stronger end game." Some examples include:
-In Ogre Battle, you need to properly manage the charisma and alignment of your characters to get the second class promotions (i.e. from Fighter to Knight to Paladin). If you don't manage this carefully, you will eventually reach a point where your Knights and other characters can't promote to Paladins or any similar-tiered class because their charisma is 0. They would be 33% weaker in battle than they should / could be at that point, and therefore, you won't even be able to beat new stages anymore and you'll have to start over, especially since the opportunity for EXP grinding is pretty limited in that game.
-In FF6, if you try to make it through the game with as low a level as possible, and don't start leveling-up your characters until everyone (or anyone you care about) has joined your party in the second half of the game, then you can maximize the level-up gains that the espers give you, which results in certain stats getting ultra high and makes for Godly characters. Not that you need it, because in that game, if all of your equipment configuration is optimal, then you have a Godly endgame anyway, with or without Godly stats to go with it, and the final bosses just aren't strong enough to resist you at all.
-In FF1, initial party selection is a very crucial element in how easily you get through the game, and aside from overall strength of the party, you also should factor-in late game strength, early game strength, and the ability to abuse the experience beacon near the second town. Ultimately, there is the temptation to replay the game with different party configurations to theorize what configuration is best and then test your hypothesis.
Another element that gives a game replay value is when you have to make choices that will show you something, but then you don't get to see something else. It could be that you have a choice, and choice A leads to you seeing cutscene A and choice B leads you to seeing cutscene B. Other consequences of choices could involve the death of NPC's, whether you character A or character B joins your party, which town gets burnt down, which faction becomes the prevailing authority (i.e. late game towns could be occupied by mobsters one way, or nazi types the other way), different end game bosses, and so on. If you make it obvious to the player that they're making a choice, then they'll want to replay the game and see what the other choice would lead to. If these deviations in paths are calculated secretly, and the player doesn't realize that it might be different if replayed, then the curiosity won't be there.
One factor that makes me want to replay games later is when I get to the end and think "now that I understand the strategies, if I replay the game again with good strategy, I think might be able to beat it in 20% of the time and have a much stronger end game." Some examples include:
-In Ogre Battle, you need to properly manage the charisma and alignment of your characters to get the second class promotions (i.e. from Fighter to Knight to Paladin). If you don't manage this carefully, you will eventually reach a point where your Knights and other characters can't promote to Paladins or any similar-tiered class because their charisma is 0. They would be 33% weaker in battle than they should / could be at that point, and therefore, you won't even be able to beat new stages anymore and you'll have to start over, especially since the opportunity for EXP grinding is pretty limited in that game.
-In FF6, if you try to make it through the game with as low a level as possible, and don't start leveling-up your characters until everyone (or anyone you care about) has joined your party in the second half of the game, then you can maximize the level-up gains that the espers give you, which results in certain stats getting ultra high and makes for Godly characters. Not that you need it, because in that game, if all of your equipment configuration is optimal, then you have a Godly endgame anyway, with or without Godly stats to go with it, and the final bosses just aren't strong enough to resist you at all.
-In FF1, initial party selection is a very crucial element in how easily you get through the game, and aside from overall strength of the party, you also should factor-in late game strength, early game strength, and the ability to abuse the experience beacon near the second town. Ultimately, there is the temptation to replay the game with different party configurations to theorize what configuration is best and then test your hypothesis.
Another element that gives a game replay value is when you have to make choices that will show you something, but then you don't get to see something else. It could be that you have a choice, and choice A leads to you seeing cutscene A and choice B leads you to seeing cutscene B. Other consequences of choices could involve the death of NPC's, whether you character A or character B joins your party, which town gets burnt down, which faction becomes the prevailing authority (i.e. late game towns could be occupied by mobsters one way, or nazi types the other way), different end game bosses, and so on. If you make it obvious to the player that they're making a choice, then they'll want to replay the game and see what the other choice would lead to. If these deviations in paths are calculated secretly, and the player doesn't realize that it might be different if replayed, then the curiosity won't be there.
I'll try to reply to more comments, give me some time, but for now I want to ask you this:
Can we say a game has replay value only if there is permanently missable stuff in terms of story branches or customization, forcing you to start a new game to take a different path?
If a game offered a single path and an all-linear experience, could we say that this game has replay value if, say, the storyline is so great you want to start over just to watch it a second time?
I myself find it hard to decide whether or not a game has good replay value to me:
For instance, I've played one character's scenario in Saga Frontier and chose to learn some magic spells and battle skills of a certain type... yet I never had much interest in playing that game again, watch the other scenarios or learn different abilities. Saga Frontier is considered as having great replay value so, is it just that the game doesn't appeal much to me?
And then I played GunGrave 4 or 5 times, not because I think the game is particularly good... it actually is pretty bad. I played just to watch the cutscenes. The storyline and screenplay are so good I didn't bother at all fighting through the boring and linear levels just to watch them over and over again. So can we say that such a game has good replay value?
Or maybe the definition of replay value is still unclear... What do you guys think?
Can we say a game has replay value only if there is permanently missable stuff in terms of story branches or customization, forcing you to start a new game to take a different path?
If a game offered a single path and an all-linear experience, could we say that this game has replay value if, say, the storyline is so great you want to start over just to watch it a second time?
I myself find it hard to decide whether or not a game has good replay value to me:
For instance, I've played one character's scenario in Saga Frontier and chose to learn some magic spells and battle skills of a certain type... yet I never had much interest in playing that game again, watch the other scenarios or learn different abilities. Saga Frontier is considered as having great replay value so, is it just that the game doesn't appeal much to me?
And then I played GunGrave 4 or 5 times, not because I think the game is particularly good... it actually is pretty bad. I played just to watch the cutscenes. The storyline and screenplay are so good I didn't bother at all fighting through the boring and linear levels just to watch them over and over again. So can we say that such a game has good replay value?
Or maybe the definition of replay value is still unclear... What do you guys think?
In that sense, the replay value of a game just because it's good, I replayed ABL with immense pleasure (more than the first time in fact), and I think I would still enjoy it a third time. this said, it's the only amateur rpg I can think of replaying.
Replay Value is based on opinion. Not everyone will find a game has that, when someone else may find it has it on the very same game. There is no definite way to say if a game has it, when basing it on an opinion. They can only base it on who replays those games. Obviously.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
There are games I've replayed just to re-experience the totally linear story, or just to re-experience the totally linear gamplay. There are also movies I've re-watched despite having totally linear stories and no gameplay.
But I think that in general I do that because there are parts I no longer remember clearly. I remember that it's good, and I remember some of the best parts, but I have forgotten what the whole experience feels like and I know that if I start over it'll almost all seem fresh. I'm not going to do it right after playing the game or watching the movie the first time. I'm going to do it a couple years later.
This type of "replay value" is universal to any type of creative media and is based purely on quality. It boils down to "we should make better games" which is not really useful or actionable information. I mean, duh. Of course it's good to make better games, no one is going to disagree with that. The type of replay value that gamers typically think of when you say the term, which is when games have missable events, is much more useful to discuss.
Personally I still dislike the idea of replay value in RPGs, and think it usually makes them worse games, not better games. I'll list two main reasons:
1) I don't want to abandon all the effort I've put into a game. Those are my dudes, I put a lot of work into building their strength up because being stronger is cool. RPG style progression is all about building up power over an extended period of time. That power becomes important to me as a player, something I earned through sweat and blood. I don't want to lose it.
2) I dislike replaying a game for the same reason I dislike grinding and fighting the same group of enemies over and over. Battles are puzzles, and solving a puzzle is only fun the first time. Once I've proven to the game that I figured out how to overcome a challenge, I shouldn't have to redo it.
New Game+ once again goes a long way towards solving both of these problems. But it doesn't really solve the second problem completely, unless the enemies all scale up in power for each successive playthrough to match you or something weird like that.
But I think that in general I do that because there are parts I no longer remember clearly. I remember that it's good, and I remember some of the best parts, but I have forgotten what the whole experience feels like and I know that if I start over it'll almost all seem fresh. I'm not going to do it right after playing the game or watching the movie the first time. I'm going to do it a couple years later.
This type of "replay value" is universal to any type of creative media and is based purely on quality. It boils down to "we should make better games" which is not really useful or actionable information. I mean, duh. Of course it's good to make better games, no one is going to disagree with that. The type of replay value that gamers typically think of when you say the term, which is when games have missable events, is much more useful to discuss.
Personally I still dislike the idea of replay value in RPGs, and think it usually makes them worse games, not better games. I'll list two main reasons:
1) I don't want to abandon all the effort I've put into a game. Those are my dudes, I put a lot of work into building their strength up because being stronger is cool. RPG style progression is all about building up power over an extended period of time. That power becomes important to me as a player, something I earned through sweat and blood. I don't want to lose it.
2) I dislike replaying a game for the same reason I dislike grinding and fighting the same group of enemies over and over. Battles are puzzles, and solving a puzzle is only fun the first time. Once I've proven to the game that I figured out how to overcome a challenge, I shouldn't have to redo it.
New Game+ once again goes a long way towards solving both of these problems. But it doesn't really solve the second problem completely, unless the enemies all scale up in power for each successive playthrough to match you or something weird like that.
What do you think of replay value?
An extremely unreliable measure of which I simply cannot understand as to why it has so much weight in reviews. I completely ignore apparent replay value in anything. If I end up replaying something, it has tangible levels of replay value. If I don't replay, I didn't end up losing anything because I had already ignored any so-called existances of replay value.
What makes you come back for more and start a game all over again?
What games do you think have good or bad replay value and why?
Endearing, lovable characters; addicting mechanics; and/or crazy awesome music just to name a few factors. Case in point, I've played through Fire Emblem 6 and Fire Emblem 7 at least 2~3 times each simply because I loved the characters so much. Age of Empires II I've replayed nigh infinite times because of its historical accuracy and amazing mechanics (and to this day nothing comes even close).
On the other hand, half-assed attempts at trying to get me to replay simply don't work on me. If I'm going to replay a game, the game has to draw me in again with its core values rather than some tacked on extras at the end. If anyone thinks New Game+ will make me replay their game, think again.
I didn't read all the posts, but in case no one said it:
Replay value is important when you're deciding whether you'll buy a game or not. You don't want to spend $$$$ on a game you will play for 6 hours and discard it.
I don't think it's as important for indie games though.
Replay value is important when you're deciding whether you'll buy a game or not. You don't want to spend $$$$ on a game you will play for 6 hours and discard it.
I don't think it's as important for indie games though.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=calunio
Replay value is important when you're deciding whether you'll buy a game or not. You don't want to spend $$$$ on a game you will play for 6 hours and discard it.
Well, okay, if something that costs $40-60 is only six hours long, then yeah, it needs some kind of replay value. But because RPGs are not well suited to being replayed (for the reasons I listed earlier), they tend to be long enough to justify the price tag even if you only play them once.
Most single-player RPGs, action games, and adventure games that don't have extremely strong replayability are at least thirty to forty hours long and thus have plenty of value just from a single playthrough. Very few action games are actually in this category; action games tend to rely on multiplayer to extend their playability. Contra games are in this category, though. Adventure games like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Phoenix Wright, etc. are all in this category. Almost all RPGs except for roguelikes are in this category.
Maybe when people are talking about "replay value" in reviews and whatnot, what they really mean is "significant and meaningful choices, that can only be made one time in a given playthrough"?
Also
idk just philosophizing
EDIT:
Also
This type of "replay value" is universal to any type of creative media and is based purely on quality. It boils down to "we should make better games" which is not really useful or actionable information. I mean, duh. Of course it's good to make better games, no one is going to disagree with that. The type of replay value that gamers typically think of when you say the term, which is when games have missable events, is much more useful to discuss.Maybe this would be better labeled as "play value"? As in "this game plays good, Imma gonna play it again"
idk just philosophizing
EDIT:
2) I dislike replaying a game for the same reason I dislike grinding and fighting the same group of enemies over and over. Battles are puzzles, and solving a puzzle is only fun the first time. Once I've proven to the game that I figured out how to overcome a challenge, I shouldn't have to redo it.but what about the grander scheme of things? A series or sequence of "puzzles" that test not only your puzzle solving battle skills, but also your overall preparation and endurance strategies? The Puzzle around the puzzle? PUZZLECEPTION























