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DISCUSSING REPLAY VALUE
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
View playlists
CloseYeah, I totally agree that multiple similar/identical battles within a dungeon can create that kind of preparation/endurance challenge, where the player has to plan for a length series of battles and manage resources. This is a pretty major part of gameplay in many RPGs, when they don't screw it up (an example of screwing it up would be giving you free full restoration at a save point and then sending you on to fight more of the same battles again).
I don't think you can really say that restarting the game is continuing the same challenge in any way, by definition. So the puzzle around the puzzle thing, while it has merit within a single dungeon, and can on rare occasions (breath of fire 5, edifice, fire emblem) have merit across the entire scope of the game, utterly falls apart when talking about replay value.
I don't think you can really say that restarting the game is continuing the same challenge in any way, by definition. So the puzzle around the puzzle thing, while it has merit within a single dungeon, and can on rare occasions (breath of fire 5, edifice, fire emblem) have merit across the entire scope of the game, utterly falls apart when talking about replay value.
Really, in my opinion, it's really about the over-all quality of the game.
You know how many times I've played Final Fantasy? A lot. You know how many times I've played Suikoden? A lot. I mean they do have stuff you could miss out on, but that isn't the reason I play them over and over again. I normally just play them to play them, and if I get the stuff I missed out on, more power to me.
The over-all length of the game doesn't even matter to me. It's about how fun of a play-through it was for me. Most people who play Role Playing Games, well many, anyway, play for quality and for their own, personal reasons, and replay the same games over and over again, as well.
There are many reasons why people replay games, and it isn't some reason that will be set in stone for the rest of us to go by, that is always correct, either. Replay Value, also isn't something game designers can account for, either. It can only be accounted for, on an individual basis, at the time the game is replayed, and then they try to recapture that with each game based on how it was done by the players. It's not something that is always 100% 'going to happen' with EVERY single person who buys/gets the game.
You know how many times I've played Final Fantasy? A lot. You know how many times I've played Suikoden? A lot. I mean they do have stuff you could miss out on, but that isn't the reason I play them over and over again. I normally just play them to play them, and if I get the stuff I missed out on, more power to me.
The over-all length of the game doesn't even matter to me. It's about how fun of a play-through it was for me. Most people who play Role Playing Games, well many, anyway, play for quality and for their own, personal reasons, and replay the same games over and over again, as well.
There are many reasons why people replay games, and it isn't some reason that will be set in stone for the rest of us to go by, that is always correct, either. Replay Value, also isn't something game designers can account for, either. It can only be accounted for, on an individual basis, at the time the game is replayed, and then they try to recapture that with each game based on how it was done by the players. It's not something that is always 100% 'going to happen' with EVERY single person who buys/gets the game.
Avee
5794
I like silly metaphors so here goes: Chocolate is enjoyed and "re-eaten" by a majority of people because the mix of cocoa and sugar produces a satisfying taste.
I believe replay value, as Thiamor says if I understand correctly, is as subjective as a game's quality and appreciation...
Yet there definitely are "ingredients" that will raise a game's replay value and a majority of players' interest in playing again after completion, just as most people who ever tasted chocolate keep buying and eating it.
I believe replay value, as Thiamor says if I understand correctly, is as subjective as a game's quality and appreciation...
Yet there definitely are "ingredients" that will raise a game's replay value and a majority of players' interest in playing again after completion, just as most people who ever tasted chocolate keep buying and eating it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Chocolate also has caffeine. If it didn't, it would still be just as satisfying the first time, but have less, uh, reeat value.
(I know a bar of chocolate has less caffeine than a cup of decaf coffee, be quiet. I'm trying to make an analogy dammit.)
(Though I guess replay value as gamers think of it is less like caffeine, and more like buying a box of Any Flavor Jelly Beans.)
(I know a bar of chocolate has less caffeine than a cup of decaf coffee, be quiet. I'm trying to make an analogy dammit.)
(Though I guess replay value as gamers think of it is less like caffeine, and more like buying a box of Any Flavor Jelly Beans.)
Crystalgate
694
I think that replay value should never come at the cost of the main game. For example, if you make a branching path, but don't have the diligence to flesh both paths out properly, I think it would have been better had you just made one well written path than two poorly written ones. I also think the game will have more replay value that way. Going with the ingredients analogue, if the food tastes bad, nobody will want to eat the same again even if you have ingredients with high "re-eat" value.
author=kentona
...unless you have significant choice(s) at the start of the game, like character classes!
Character class choices for life. This makes for the best kinds of games.
Killer Wolf
1235
Back when my computer was still somewhat top-of-the-line, I would always buy the PC version of a game over the console version strictly for replay purposes. Usually, PC games are easier to cheat in, and mod communities pop up quickly around certain games.
The cheating thing needs to be explained a bit better. The first one or two times I play through a game, I play by the rules. I experience the game the way they meant for me to, and usually have a blast with it. When I come back to it again later, I really just want to have fun. After the fourth or fifth time I beat KOTOR/KOTOR2, I started cheating the stats of my character on successive replays... unless I was running it with a new mod I'd just downloaded, then I was back to the by the rules experience.
At one point, I had so many mods for the first Max Payne that I could play it every day for a week and not have the same experience twice.
But that wasn't replay built by the developer, it was consumer based content. Outside of multi-player maps, and games designed to make an allowance for it, I don't see this type of expanding content working in the console market. As it is, I'm already sick of having to get large portions of a game I already paid for as dlc.
I noticed in a recent topic someplace else about Deus Ex Human Revolution that there is a trend now to buy games new, beat them, and turn right around and sell them. The justification was that by the time the player wants to play the game again, a sequel should be out. I try to stifle the horror that comes to mind when I consider what my gaming life would have been like if I'd taken that approach to the FIRST Deus Ex!
Speaking of which, Deus Ex is the pinnacle of game design for me in just about every respect. It allowed players to approach things in a variety of different ways, yet it didn't really beat you over the head for not finding every secret. (Although making an underwater specialist was kind of a bad idea since it didn't come up all that often, but boy when it did, you could kick some serious... flipper?)
To this day, or at least up to the most recent time I ran through it, I ALWAYS find something new in Deus Ex. A password I missed before, a new way to handle a situation, a conversation I overhear, etc. Hell, because I always took Paul's advice about the window, I didn't even know he could be kept alive until the first time I played the sequel!
This comes back to my cheating thing also. The fact that after the upteenth time I played Deus Ex I decided to console command myself a stack of weapon upgrades that turned my stealth pistol into a bottomless pit of laser dot sniping death from half a mile away did nothing to detract from my enjoyment of the game. Having souped up guns or augs didn't really have an effect on whether or not I realized you could killphrase Gunther the same way you did Anna, or that it was kind of funny to "beat" Simons in a track and field match instead of a battle to the death. If anything, they made the game easier to come back to and enjoy. To this day, I will buy any Deus Ex related property on speculation, purely because of how much fun I had with the original. I even played through Invisible War multiple times as a courtesy to DE and actually got to a point where I found it enjoyable enough on its own merits! I think I even played Project Snowblind a couple of times through, although there really wasn't much reason after the first trip, other then trying no-aug and "only this gun" runs.
The cheating thing needs to be explained a bit better. The first one or two times I play through a game, I play by the rules. I experience the game the way they meant for me to, and usually have a blast with it. When I come back to it again later, I really just want to have fun. After the fourth or fifth time I beat KOTOR/KOTOR2, I started cheating the stats of my character on successive replays... unless I was running it with a new mod I'd just downloaded, then I was back to the by the rules experience.
At one point, I had so many mods for the first Max Payne that I could play it every day for a week and not have the same experience twice.
But that wasn't replay built by the developer, it was consumer based content. Outside of multi-player maps, and games designed to make an allowance for it, I don't see this type of expanding content working in the console market. As it is, I'm already sick of having to get large portions of a game I already paid for as dlc.
I noticed in a recent topic someplace else about Deus Ex Human Revolution that there is a trend now to buy games new, beat them, and turn right around and sell them. The justification was that by the time the player wants to play the game again, a sequel should be out. I try to stifle the horror that comes to mind when I consider what my gaming life would have been like if I'd taken that approach to the FIRST Deus Ex!
Speaking of which, Deus Ex is the pinnacle of game design for me in just about every respect. It allowed players to approach things in a variety of different ways, yet it didn't really beat you over the head for not finding every secret. (Although making an underwater specialist was kind of a bad idea since it didn't come up all that often, but boy when it did, you could kick some serious... flipper?)
To this day, or at least up to the most recent time I ran through it, I ALWAYS find something new in Deus Ex. A password I missed before, a new way to handle a situation, a conversation I overhear, etc. Hell, because I always took Paul's advice about the window, I didn't even know he could be kept alive until the first time I played the sequel!
This comes back to my cheating thing also. The fact that after the upteenth time I played Deus Ex I decided to console command myself a stack of weapon upgrades that turned my stealth pistol into a bottomless pit of laser dot sniping death from half a mile away did nothing to detract from my enjoyment of the game. Having souped up guns or augs didn't really have an effect on whether or not I realized you could killphrase Gunther the same way you did Anna, or that it was kind of funny to "beat" Simons in a track and field match instead of a battle to the death. If anything, they made the game easier to come back to and enjoy. To this day, I will buy any Deus Ex related property on speculation, purely because of how much fun I had with the original. I even played through Invisible War multiple times as a courtesy to DE and actually got to a point where I found it enjoyable enough on its own merits! I think I even played Project Snowblind a couple of times through, although there really wasn't much reason after the first trip, other then trying no-aug and "only this gun" runs.
orochii
6740
This month I had played two times FinalFantasyLegends. Has over 20 years, graphics are just very humble (but lovely), story has some twists (and it's lovely), music is 2bit-2channel mono GB speakerish (but is WONDERFUL!!1!). Also has great variety.
But the fact is that I passed it both times with the SAME strategies. I just wanted to walk around and hear again the tunes!
Also, I'm in favour of the lenght-point. But it's not only about hours. It's also about gameplay itself. Don't know why, but I feel as if some RPGs are just slow! (how much grinding you NEED to do <and those annoyingly decorated battles, like in Star Ocean from X360, 90% of time is animation>, and some aspects in argument itself).
Maybe is the drawback of using that much the emulator's ultraspeed,
Orochii Zouveleki
But the fact is that I passed it both times with the SAME strategies. I just wanted to walk around and hear again the tunes!
Also, I'm in favour of the lenght-point. But it's not only about hours. It's also about gameplay itself. Don't know why, but I feel as if some RPGs are just slow! (how much grinding you NEED to do <and those annoyingly decorated battles, like in Star Ocean from X360, 90% of time is animation>, and some aspects in argument itself).
Maybe is the drawback of using that much the emulator's ultraspeed,
Orochii Zouveleki
I think when it comes to replay value, I'm more likely to play again if I can unlock a new chapter of story or some new kind of mode or minigames. I have very little motivation to replay the whole game again just for some silly costume, weapon or anything that's little.
Here's some thought provoking stuff from J.E. Sawyer, project director of the Fallout series and a far more successful game developer than most others.
author=Question From A Fan
I guess I agree with a lot of what you are saying and think you make very good points. It is just that I cannot help but worry, that games -RPGs in particular- are steadily being dumbed down to appeal to a wider market of instant-gratification simplicity.
author=J.E. Sawyer
I don't really think instant gratification is a good goal of game design. It provides immediate satisfaction but can lead to long-term boredom. That's one of the reasons I insisted on doing things like placing a quarry full of deathclaws next to Goodsprings and turning everything north of Goodsprings into a monster badlands.
A lot of players ignored the warnings and attempted to bulldoze their way through. Most failed. The ones who succeeded were patient or extremely resourceful. The rest eventually overcame the challenges of the area by returning at higher levels. The game didn't prevent them from moving forward (especially since areas like Quarry Junction are optional), but asked them to step up to the challenge instead of handing things to them.
Allowing respecs doesn't really have anything to do with instant gratification, though. It's almost the opposite: the slowly dawning realization that you made some really bad choices. As long as there's a significant cost associated with doing the respec, the player can still feel a bit of a sting while still being allowed to work their way out.
Avee
5794
Just thought of something new that adds replay value:
Letting the player know of his progress, with completion rates for instance. You beat the game and are then shown your Item finding rate as in the Metroid games, or Scenes rate for every girl as in Heartache 101.
I believe that should appeal to most players who want to achieve mastery of the game, find every secret and all that.
Letting the players know of their progress at the end of the game encourages them to start over again and try different paths, while letting them know at anytime during the game should appeal more to players who want to achieve mastery in a single run, thus adding play value instead of replay value.
Letting the player know of his progress, with completion rates for instance. You beat the game and are then shown your Item finding rate as in the Metroid games, or Scenes rate for every girl as in Heartache 101.
I believe that should appeal to most players who want to achieve mastery of the game, find every secret and all that.
Letting the players know of their progress at the end of the game encourages them to start over again and try different paths, while letting them know at anytime during the game should appeal more to players who want to achieve mastery in a single run, thus adding play value instead of replay value.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Unless beating the game deletes your save, or there are items you get locked out of after progressing beyond a certain point in the game, there's still no reason to start over.
The only inherent difference between this and any other missable stuff is that it takes 20 minutes each time you want to double-check your progress.
The only inherent difference between this and any other missable stuff is that it takes 20 minutes each time you want to double-check your progress.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
We said that one already! I didn't mean THERE'S NEVER A REASON TO START OVER, I meant that his idea didn't add any new reason to start over. I was just responding to Avee's idea.
I do agree that character class choices, etc. at the start of the game are a decent and effective way to get people to start over, if that's your goal.
I do agree that character class choices, etc. at the start of the game are a decent and effective way to get people to start over, if that's your goal.
Avee
5794
kentona seems to crave for a game with character classes, huh.
Well, I can think of one reason why some players would want to start over: to challenge themselves and try to get a better completion rate faster. Using Metroid again as an example, the higher the rate and the lower completion time are, you get a better (or should I say sexier) picture of Samus at the end.
Of course a picture is a weak reason for starting over the whole game, but it could be interesting if the reward was a completely different and more satisfying ending.
But still, that would only appeal to the kind of players who care about testing their skills at a given game.
As supremewarrior said, unlockables can be interesting too. Provided that the game is relatively short and the unlockable content is worth it, it would be reason enough to start over to experience new scenes, plots, characters, quests, abilities and all you couldn't do during your first run. Designers should then make the game's world and storyline more intricate and divided into branches, I guess.
Can't think of a good example at the time... maybe Valkyrie Profile? Nah, there's no unlockables per se but there are 2 distinctive paths and endings.
Well, I can think of one reason why some players would want to start over: to challenge themselves and try to get a better completion rate faster. Using Metroid again as an example, the higher the rate and the lower completion time are, you get a better (or should I say sexier) picture of Samus at the end.
Of course a picture is a weak reason for starting over the whole game, but it could be interesting if the reward was a completely different and more satisfying ending.
But still, that would only appeal to the kind of players who care about testing their skills at a given game.
As supremewarrior said, unlockables can be interesting too. Provided that the game is relatively short and the unlockable content is worth it, it would be reason enough to start over to experience new scenes, plots, characters, quests, abilities and all you couldn't do during your first run. Designers should then make the game's world and storyline more intricate and divided into branches, I guess.
Can't think of a good example at the time... maybe Valkyrie Profile? Nah, there's no unlockables per se but there are 2 distinctive paths and endings.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Star Fox Command has some 12 different endings; the first time through the game you can only get the main one, but after you get that some other choices unlock at the beginning of certain chapters, and after you get some other endings even more choices unlock. For example, after you beat the game by following any path that involves Star Wolf, you unlock the ability to choose the path where you join his team. After you beat the game by following any four paths that involve the four female characters, you unlock a path where Fox leaves the team and you play as only the four female characters.
Breath of Fire 5 is a pretty amazing and unique game and is 100% relevant to this discussion, and someone should describe how it works in detail because I can't remember it all and am lazy.
Breath of Fire 5 is a pretty amazing and unique game and is 100% relevant to this discussion, and someone should describe how it works in detail because I can't remember it all and am lazy.
If a game is free, I don't care about replay value. I rarely play games more than once, anyway.
If I pay $40 or more on a game, I'd like some replay value. Just a slightly different way of playing is fine. I also don't think that overly long games need to bother, but I also don't think that linear RPGs need to be 30+ hours either.
I find that home consoles make me care less about replay value, while my DS begs for it. It makes sense; DS games are easier to grab-and-go, thus I play them much more; I'd like to be able to try something a little different if I go though a game again.
If I pay $40 or more on a game, I'd like some replay value. Just a slightly different way of playing is fine. I also don't think that overly long games need to bother, but I also don't think that linear RPGs need to be 30+ hours either.
I find that home consoles make me care less about replay value, while my DS begs for it. It makes sense; DS games are easier to grab-and-go, thus I play them much more; I'd like to be able to try something a little different if I go though a game again.
