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CHRONO TRIGGER: THROUGH THE ROSE-TINTED SPECS
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I'll definitely be reading and commenting on this later today. It sounds very in-line with my game design ideas just from a quick scan.
That.. was a great read, and so true. For this guy it's Chrono Trigger, for me its Final Fantasy VII.
This game is among my all-time favourite games. I replayed it recently on the DS, and it was great. ....except for that godawful post-game content they added for the DS remake. Dear lord it was so awful. Like the worst fetch-quest convoluted urgh ugh ugh BLARG! Honestly, it was like someone opened up RPG Maker 2003 for the first time, imported the Chrono Trigger sprites and went to town...and somehow that makes it into the official re-release?
Anywho, good read.
(Also, coincidentally, Team Liquid mentioned Hero's Realm last year in their "Best free games you don't know about" thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128407¤tpage=3#53 )
Anywho, good read.
(Also, coincidentally, Team Liquid mentioned Hero's Realm last year in their "Best free games you don't know about" thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128407¤tpage=3#53 )
Chrono Trigger is one of the most critically acclaimed games of all time. That's pretty much objective. It's also one of my favorite games of all time, and often the statement of 'You people only like it because of nostalgia', and well, it just doesn't hold up for me. I first played Chrono Trigger long after the SNES era and fell in love with it. CT remains 'one of those games' that in my observation, defies expectations, as I've witnessed everyone from girl game haters to gangster rappers playing it with no prior expectations or even knowledge of its existence and ultimately loving it to fucking death.
I gave up trying to analyze it. I just accept it for what it is. And I love it.
I gave up trying to analyze it. I just accept it for what it is. And I love it.
Chrono Trigger owns. The future overstays its welcome, I sack Marle and Lucca as soon as possible, and I don't like the battle theme but everything else is just so fucking slick. It looks great, good music, fun fights, great variety, fucking Zeal, and a great endgame. Thank god the additions to the DS port are optional because they are the anti-Chrono Trigger in terms of love, sweat, and blood put into them.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This game is to video games what the original Star Wars trilogy is to movies.
The graphics, while amazing at the time, are utterly outdated. And everything in the game has been done to death. It's all ridiculously cliche. There's nothing that makes it stand out, at a brief glance. Some unlikely heroes go on an adventure and end up saving the world.
It doesn't do anything really special. It just does it all perfect.
It's true that it all seems so cliche now. But I wonder how many of the things that are cliches in JRPGs, in video games in general, are cliches specifically because everyone is trying to recreate this game.
The graphics, while amazing at the time, are utterly outdated. And everything in the game has been done to death. It's all ridiculously cliche. There's nothing that makes it stand out, at a brief glance. Some unlikely heroes go on an adventure and end up saving the world.
It doesn't do anything really special. It just does it all perfect.
It's true that it all seems so cliche now. But I wonder how many of the things that are cliches in JRPGs, in video games in general, are cliches specifically because everyone is trying to recreate this game.
author=Locke
This game is to video games what the original Star Wars trilogy is to movies.
Seinfeld/TV Shows would be a better analogy.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I don't remember Seinfeld having outdated special effects for today, having great special effects when it first came out, defining all works of the same genre from then on, or being an epitomally cliche story about unlikely heroes getting dragged into an adventure and eventually saving the world/galaxy. I could have missed that episode.
I would accept, uh, I Love Lucy or something, I guess. Not that Lucy and Ricky were battling Lavos or anything, but... at least the other stuff.
I'm not saying Seinfeld isn't good beneath an unassuming shell. But my point wasn't just that Chrono Trigger is good beneath an unassuming shell; it was also all that other stuff.
I would accept, uh, I Love Lucy or something, I guess. Not that Lucy and Ricky were battling Lavos or anything, but... at least the other stuff.
I'm not saying Seinfeld isn't good beneath an unassuming shell. But my point wasn't just that Chrono Trigger is good beneath an unassuming shell; it was also all that other stuff.
I played Chrono Trigger for the first time about four years ago and to be honest, I really didn't care for it. The characters were bland and unremarkable, the gameplay has nothing to offer that I haven't seen done a thousand times but better, and the battles are slow and boring. The music is great, though.
Maybe I'm spoiled in that I played Chrono Cross first, but I just could not get into CT. I'm sure it was great for its time, but I don't think it has aged well at all.
Maybe I'm spoiled in that I played Chrono Cross first, but I just could not get into CT. I'm sure it was great for its time, but I don't think it has aged well at all.
author=LockeZ
I don't remember Seinfeld having outdated special effects for today, having great special effects when it first came out, defining all works of the same genre from then on, or being an epitomally cliche story about unlikely heroes getting dragged into an adventure and eventually saving the world/galaxy. I could have missed that episode.
I would accept, uh, I Love Lucy or something, I guess. Not that Lucy and Ricky were battling Lavos or anything, but... at least the other stuff.
I'm not saying Seinfeld isn't good beneath an unassuming shell. But my point wasn't just that Chrono Trigger is good beneath an unassuming shell; it was also all that other stuff.
No I'm saying is that Seinfeld set such a bar for TV Shows that it pretty much influenced all TV Shows that came after it, and as a result people think Seinfeld kinda sucks even though it's the grandfather of the modern sitcom. There's even a trope for it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
So you missed my point entirely I guess? It's okay.
author=Sailerius
I played Chrono Trigger for the first time about four years ago and to be honest, I really didn't care for it. The characters were bland and unremarkable, the gameplay has nothing to offer that I haven't seen done a thousand times but better, and the battles are slow and boring. The music is great, though.
Maybe I'm spoiled in that I played Chrono Cross first, but I just could not get into CT. I'm sure it was great for its time, but I don't think it has aged well at all.
Maybe it's the fact that you played it 4 years ago, and not longer ago.
Most people don't get much into it, if they played it recently, due to all of the craptastic games bent on using nothing but better graphics and crappy ass stories.
The classic games couldn't focus on good graphics like today, so what they did was build upon the story. But now, you're lucky to get any type of story out of the hours and hours of lame ass shooters, and 'see if you can survive these hordes for hours on end' games.
They diluted most new gamer's mind with what they call the next and best generation in gaming. If you played it back when there wasn't nothing new to eat away at your mind, you might find it pretty enjoyable, like the rest of us.
Oh, for Seinfeld, even back in the day, it was a bucket of crap. I never knew anyone who liked it, and the moment it came on they would read a book. It goes to show what a crappy show could to, to influence others to do a productive activity, during it's time-slot. .
Pretty much agreed with most of the stated above. I personally prefer the older generation games over the newer generation. Let's see what the new gen games have got going for them: better graphics, terrible gameplay, terrible story. I swear, if I ever owned a game company, I wouldn't hire any of these game makers today.
I do like the article though, it's an interesting read. I've been replaying the game myself on the ds...and the new content has been...unimpressive, to say the least. I still havn't seen the new ending...so that's the one thing I can't comment on yet.
Edit: I just lol'd at the post two slots down. Thanks for that physhal.
I do like the article though, it's an interesting read. I've been replaying the game myself on the ds...and the new content has been...unimpressive, to say the least. I still havn't seen the new ending...so that's the one thing I can't comment on yet.
Edit: I just lol'd at the post two slots down. Thanks for that physhal.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Sai, you're a horrible person.
Feld, I understood what you were saying, I just was saying that plus about five other things.
I... am considering restarting my RMXP Chrono Trigger fangame now. This is a terrible idea because I am already a developer for an online Chrono Trigger fangame. But it's really hard to keep myself away from it.
Feld, I understood what you were saying, I just was saying that plus about five other things.
I... am considering restarting my RMXP Chrono Trigger fangame now. This is a terrible idea because I am already a developer for an online Chrono Trigger fangame. But it's really hard to keep myself away from it.
author=Sailerius
I played Chrono Trigger for the first time about four years ago and to be honest, I really didn't care for it. The characters were bland and unremarkable, the gameplay has nothing to offer that I haven't seen done a thousand times but better, and the battles are slow and boring. The music is great, though.
This really puts your reviews into perspective.
author=ThiamorI don't think you're being fair there. When did I ever say I didn't like it because of the graphics? I didn't like it because of the gameplay and the story bored me to tears. I can respect that it might have been considered good for its time, but having played more recent games with much better stories and gameplay, I just can't get into it.
Maybe it's the fact that you played it 4 years ago, and not longer ago.
Most people don't get much into it, if they played it recently, due to all of the craptastic games bent on using nothing but better graphics and crappy ass stories.
The classic games couldn't focus on good graphics like today, so what they did was build upon the story. But now, you're lucky to get any type of story out of the hours and hours of lame ass shooters, and 'see if you can survive these hordes for hours on end' games. As far as stories in RPGs go, it's pretty weak in my opinion. :x
They diluted most new gamer's mind with what they call the next and best generation in gaming. If you played it back when there wasn't nothing new to eat away at your mind, you might find it pretty enjoyable, like the rest of us.
Sai, you're a horrible person.It just didn't appeal to me. It might just be a matter of taste, as in general I have a hard time enjoying oldschool RPGs.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Chrono Trigger's battles could benefit from about a 25%-50% speedup. Maybe more like 100% at the beginning of the game, when you have fewer than three characters. Fortunately, we have emulators.
Since Sai mentioned it, I kind of want to rant about the gameplay in Chrono Trigger, and the battles in particular. I actually really, really like the way it handles combo techs and geometric-areas-of-attack. They're not complex, but they're handled with extreme finesse. Every battle is set up with the geometric attacks in mind, and every battle has the enemies in a different formation than you've ever seen before. Every combo skill has lots of times when you want to use it and lots of times when you don't. It would almost feel like a semi-tactical RPG level of gameplay in battles, if it weren't so damn easy, which is admittedly a pretty big fault when viewing it as an experienced gamer.
Every enemy has unique but easily understood gimmicks, and they appear exactly the right amount of times before you never see them again. Party members are perfectly balanced. Battles are not random, and the ability to avoid most but not all encounters is done in a way that most people find appealing - each encounter is individually designed with its own movement patterns and triggers so that even just the act of starting or avoiding a battle feels like a meaningful event every single time.
I do think the equipment is overly simple, and the way skills are learned has not aged well. These are areas where modern games do a much better job of building complex, living, breathing gameplay systems, while these systems in CT are basically nonexistant. Traditional XP grind systems have also fallen out of style, with what I feel is good reason. However, CT does a fair job of discouraging the average player from grinding by simply making dead enemies stay dead until you exit the area to the world map, and also by giving enough room for error in battles that grinding is utterly unnecessary even for the most pathetic novice.
Since Sai mentioned it, I kind of want to rant about the gameplay in Chrono Trigger, and the battles in particular. I actually really, really like the way it handles combo techs and geometric-areas-of-attack. They're not complex, but they're handled with extreme finesse. Every battle is set up with the geometric attacks in mind, and every battle has the enemies in a different formation than you've ever seen before. Every combo skill has lots of times when you want to use it and lots of times when you don't. It would almost feel like a semi-tactical RPG level of gameplay in battles, if it weren't so damn easy, which is admittedly a pretty big fault when viewing it as an experienced gamer.
Every enemy has unique but easily understood gimmicks, and they appear exactly the right amount of times before you never see them again. Party members are perfectly balanced. Battles are not random, and the ability to avoid most but not all encounters is done in a way that most people find appealing - each encounter is individually designed with its own movement patterns and triggers so that even just the act of starting or avoiding a battle feels like a meaningful event every single time.
I do think the equipment is overly simple, and the way skills are learned has not aged well. These are areas where modern games do a much better job of building complex, living, breathing gameplay systems, while these systems in CT are basically nonexistant. Traditional XP grind systems have also fallen out of style, with what I feel is good reason. However, CT does a fair job of discouraging the average player from grinding by simply making dead enemies stay dead until you exit the area to the world map, and also by giving enough room for error in battles that grinding is utterly unnecessary even for the most pathetic novice.
While it could be argued that there are games with better stories (very few come to mind), I don't think I've seen a better execution of a story in a game. And the gameplay just comes off as satisfying for me. It may be a little on the easy side, but it is damn fun executing those combos.
But in any event, the arguments for and against this game come off as very "The games when I was an impressionable teenager were the best games ever, and thus Chrono Trigger is (choose one:){The best game ever|kind of lame and overrated}"
But in any event, the arguments for and against this game come off as very "The games when I was an impressionable teenager were the best games ever, and thus Chrono Trigger is (choose one:){The best game ever|kind of lame and overrated}"
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Really, examining the game objectively as a designer, it is the way encounters are done as much as anything that makes the areas feel so alive. They are seamlessly integrated into the areas, and each one is unique. This helps the areas come alive, and by extension makes the story much easier to become immersed in.
Because, like the author in the OP, I admit the story is ridiculous and childish and stupid. I think if you kept all the dialogue and cut scenes but replaced the areas with FF4 style areas with FF4 style battles, the story would feel about as epic as FF4's story (read: you would need a seriously strong prescription on those glasses to honestly claim it's anything other than dumb).
Unfortunately for CT, the graphics haven't aged well, and good graphics can do just as much or more to make the areas and characters come alive. So while the story benefits from the timeless gameplay, it suffers as a result of the crappy SNES graphics. Neither of these are things people typically think about as directly affecting the enjoyability of the story in a major way, but the truth is that they do. Frickin' Square C&Ding the frickin' Chrono Resurrection project, I want to hang their frickin' lawyers from barbeques.
Because, like the author in the OP, I admit the story is ridiculous and childish and stupid. I think if you kept all the dialogue and cut scenes but replaced the areas with FF4 style areas with FF4 style battles, the story would feel about as epic as FF4's story (read: you would need a seriously strong prescription on those glasses to honestly claim it's anything other than dumb).
Unfortunately for CT, the graphics haven't aged well, and good graphics can do just as much or more to make the areas and characters come alive. So while the story benefits from the timeless gameplay, it suffers as a result of the crappy SNES graphics. Neither of these are things people typically think about as directly affecting the enjoyability of the story in a major way, but the truth is that they do. Frickin' Square C&Ding the frickin' Chrono Resurrection project, I want to hang their frickin' lawyers from barbeques.
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