STATS ARE FOR SISSIES: ALTERNATIVES TO TRADITIONAL GROWTH MECHANICS

Yeah, no one really was suggesting that stats should exist but be hidden. I mentioned a game that did that, but it wasn't my point. My point in mentioning that game was to bring up party size as an alternative method of growth.

We're talking about removing stat growth entirely. For example, uh... well, read the OP.

Just getting new abilities as you go that are more and more effective is another option. Firaga replaces Fira, which replaces Fire. That's improvement. Removing stats and making new skills be the primary method of improvement across the entire game has the potential to be interesting. I think you would still need either HP or defense to increase, though, because as power gradually ramps up you need enemies and players to still be able to survive.

Well, you don't strictly need HP or defense stats to increase. You can give the player and the enemies better defensive buffs and better healing spells as the game goes on. They'll only be in more danger on the first round.

The entire point of the trait system is to remove any sort of opacity.

I don't see how this is the case. It seems to me that the level of opacity is kind of unchanged from a standard system with stats to this.

Why are you using percents, though?

Well that's because there's an important intermediating factor--defense.

+10 Damage and +10 Attack are different stat mods, they don't just have different opacity. One of them looks at damage before defenses, and one of them looks at it after. To me, at least.

author=Max McGee
Well that's because there's an important intermediating factor--defense.

+10 Damage and +10 Attack are different stat mods, they don't just have different opacity. One of them looks at damage before defenses, and one of them looks at it after. To me, at least.

It's also because a lot of games don't make one point of attack equal to one point of damage in the first place.

Anyway, yes, they are different stat mods. I don't think I said it was not though.

author=Craze
now that Carmilla absorbs 30% of magic thrown at her as MP, her critical spell hits automatically inflict Blind, and she restores 40 HP when she hits any enemy that has an ailment inflicted. Her ability to deal damage and ability to withstand damage have increased, especially against spellcasting foes, and yet the game has remained balanced and she isn't a supreme goddess that crushes everything.

GW2, for one, has eliminated "stats" in favor of traits like Craze is describing, even further than GW1 already did. Basically, you have your Death Shroud, and then you can invest points in things like "poison enemies who touch you while Death Shrouded." It really drives along a sense of emergent gameplay while completely ignoring character-specific statistics.

By the way, GW1 has an entire wiki full of info on the game, and their attack/defense formulas - though complicated - are posted and explained so as to be completely transparent. They already barely use 'stats', but have FURTHER gone out of their way to remove any mystery from the formulas in the wiki.

author=Max McGee
Well that's because there's an important intermediating factor--defense.

+10 Damage and +10 Attack are different stat mods, they don't just have different opacity. One of them looks at damage before defenses, and one of them looks at it after. To me, at least.

You're almost too genre-savvy (formula-savvy?) - my game in particular uses defense and attack both BEFORE final damage is calculated, meaning +10 ATK and +10 DEF are in fact the same stat mod/cancel each other out. Jumping to conclusions about how things are formulated is a really good way to make the game's numbers seem more opaque to you immediately (and is a good argument for Craze suggesting that this type of formula is unnecessary anyway).

@Lucid: Sometimes you have to find a way to make something work instead of being content with knowing in advance that it will. Case in point, non-EXP/stat progression in turn-based combat, on the condition that the character growth system that replaces it is designed well enough to escape the pitfalls you mentioned.

If the only problem would be grinding, just make the traits/skills rise quickly to avoid tediousness.

but I need the trashy groups to validate my numerical superiority! (I admit, I am a stat-sissy)

author=Avee
If the only problem would be grinding, just make the traits/skills rise quickly to avoid tediousness.

This doesn't really make sense - the characters need to keep improving until near the end of the game. If your game is 20 hours long then of course it's going to take 18 hours or more to get everything to max power, or to the power needed for the final boss.

An interesting option, sort of how Chrono Cross works, would be to give skill levels (or stats for that matter, in an FF2j or SaGa style stat-earning system) very quick growth, but a cap that increases by a few points after defeating each boss. In Chrono Cross you can earn stats only for the first 3 or 4 battles after each boss, I think. After that you stop earning them until fighting another boss. That way the stat growth is not tedious, plus you as the designer have a pretty good idea of how strong the player is going to be. And you can have more trash battles if you want to, but they won't affect the stat growth curve. This would actually work better in a skill-growth system than a stat system: instead of semi-randomly allocated stats, you would just get the opportunity to earn one extra talent point or skill level by fighting a few battles after each boss.

(Chrono Cross actually has the counter reset after each boss rather than increasing the cap, so if you fight less than 3-4 battles between bosses you don't get your stat points and can never make them up, which is stupid, don't do that.)