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Closeauthor=Cozzer
Anyway, I just realized I've gotten away from my real point.
Which is: graphics is not a "marketing tool" for the game, but an important part of the experience, just as gameplay, story and everything else.
Well, I think it's both. It's what draws a person into the experience and gives life to the gaming world.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Hey guys, remember when the PSX came out
And RPGers everywhere were all being snobbish like "graphics are meaningless, the only reason anyone likes FF7 or anything else with 3D graphics is because they are little kids who don't understand what makes games truly great, no one who actually is a gamer gives a flying shit about graphics, it doesn't change what's underneath"
What happened to that attitude, that was the best, when did we stop thinking that way :(
And RPGers everywhere were all being snobbish like "graphics are meaningless, the only reason anyone likes FF7 or anything else with 3D graphics is because they are little kids who don't understand what makes games truly great, no one who actually is a gamer gives a flying shit about graphics, it doesn't change what's underneath"
What happened to that attitude, that was the best, when did we stop thinking that way :(
I'm guessing when huge corporations like Sony and Microsoft started getting involved and competition for customers became much fiercer. Video gaming has gotten a much greater mass-appeal than it once had, so I guess visuals and advertising have become increasingly important over time.
But you're right. In fact, the old commercials for Final Fantasy VII didn't even show any gameplay, just the then-impressive cutscenes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9zzFEdGWk
But you're right. In fact, the old commercials for Final Fantasy VII didn't even show any gameplay, just the then-impressive cutscenes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9zzFEdGWk
author=golbez
It's not like it takes forever to implement good graphics in a game. I don't think everyone here is expected to create their own music, sound effects and graphics for all of their games so it's pretty minimal effort to find/rip what you need. That's why bad graphics in rpgmaker piss me off because it's such an easy thing to improve. I'm pretty sure that most people here despise RTP for that reason.
I got at least 200 pages of notes written on my game. Couple more dozen pages in word docs on specific topics. 300 named npcs already in the game and counting.
Wanna help me match their graphics? I need matching faces for the likes of James Bond, Vito Corleone, Nicolas Cage, Johnny Cage, Luke Cage, Rambo, Maximus, Jevon Kearse to name a few for my first major town.
I'm not against quality consistent graphics. It's something I personally look for in indie games. It's just not reasonable for this project. And I'm definitely not lazy.
If people don't like my game or even give it a chance because of that, oh well. Plenty of other games for them to try. Sacrificing my story to please others isn't an option. I hope no writer ever has to do that. If you can help me find a way to get it to an acceptable level, I'm all for it.
So anyway, back to my intended point of discussion. In the past couple months that I've been in this community, the one thing I couldn't help but notice was that people almost exclusively talk about how the games look. SICK overlays dude. The only other thing discussed is the custom programming work, which made more sense to me.
It's not like people don't talk about writing, it's just somewhat rarer.
Couple years ago, I saw this website for the first time and tried a couple games that were well reviewed or got some awards or whatever. About all of them were such well produced games, insane attention to detail, etc. I couldn't stay hooked on most of them, though, because the dialogue was brutal. To be fair, of course, they're indie game makers, not writers.
Then I saw a couple games that had non-graphical redeeming characteristics that, for me anyway, totally trumped how bad it looked. One of them was this second mellynd war game. Man was that game ugly. But that story was captivating. Those characters were so developed. They didn't fall into a single voice(the voice of the writer) like other games I saw.
The other game that stood out to me was Rise of the Third Power. It was fairly visually appealing, but that paled in comparison to how colorful the characters and their chemistry were. I said to myself, THIS is what I was looking for! It doesn't even matter what kind of adventure they have, I want to see them do it.
It'd be uncouth of me at this point to mention that most of my games have been consistently (but not unfailingly) lauded for their writing and consistently (but not unfailingly) panned for just about everything else (although usually not all at the same time).
Wanna help me match their graphics? I need matching faces for the likes of James Bond, Vito Corleone, Nicolas Cage, Johnny Cage, Luke Cage, Rambo, Maximus, Jevon Kearse to name a few for my first major town.
Wait, are you Yeaster?
(In case you didn't know, Yeaster included such "Celebrity Cameos" in his games, just by using photos of real people as facesets. Which is, I suppose, an option for you too.)
Also, and [i but...if your game is a comedy game in which those characters randomly appear, then it is not a sanctified, canonized literary masterwork, and it'd probably be best to stop talking about it like one. (See Italics below.)
I'm not against quality consistent graphics. It's something I personally look for in indie games. It's just not reasonable for this project. And I'm definitely not lazy.
If people don't like my game or even give it a chance because of that, oh well. Plenty of other games for them to try. Sacrificing my story to please others isn't an option. I hope no writer ever has to do that. If you can help me find a way to get it to an acceptable level, I'm all for it.
Emphasis mine.
In all seriousness, looking at the bold text, why did you make this topic?
I know people have limited time to make their games. When I see a beautiful game with sick battlesystems but mediocre story/dialogue, I wouldn't say go fix your dialogue, it blows. Maybe, they're bad at writing, can't help that. I dunno why the reverse has to be true. I can't make all the custom matching graphics that I need to represent the story I've written. Well maybe I could, but I don't have the time and energies for it.
The tough lesson to learn is...by posting here, you are soliciting criticism and feedback. Even if you specifically request not to receive it (which I don't think you've done) the very act of posting here is like signing a contract that cements your request for feedback. And unfortunately, you really can't pick and choose what you do and do not want feedback on.
In the end, only you can decide how to make your game and what it will focus on and people's suggestions are just that--suggestions. If you have reasons why you can't or won't entertain them, then ignore them, and keep on trucking!
-Max McGee
P.S.
I liked Final Fantasy Tactic's ORIGINAL translation even tho it was said to be as bad dialogue because, idk, for me the idea was still there and understood it and I enjoyed it. Never deterred the story away from me and I found FFtactics as my most favorite game (And arguably by most, the best FF game out there).
But it's completely incomprehensible! It's not a matter of style or literary value. Names of factions, characters, and places sometimes are not consistently translated, making it impossible to tell what's going on, where, and to who, especially in the expository passages between Chapters and in the "Zodiac Story" character biographies. Sometimes the translation of a particular character name, title, place or faction will change in the SAME PARAGRAPH!
author=Max McGee
Also, and [i but...if your game is a comedy game in which those characters randomly appear, then it is not a sanctified, canonized literary masterwork, and it'd probably be best to stop talking about it like one. (See Italics below.)
Emphasis mine.
In all seriousness, looking at the bold text, why did you make this topic?
The tough lesson to learn is...by posting here, you are soliciting criticism and feedback. Even if you specifically request not to receive it (which I don't think you've done) the very act of posting here is like signing a contract that cements your request for feedback. And unfortunately, you really can't pick and choose what you do and do not want feedback on.
In the end, only you can decide how to make your game and what it will focus on and people's suggestions are just that--suggestions. If you have reasons why you can't or won't entertain them, then ignore them, and keep on trucking!
-Max McGee
Why did I make this topic? Look at some of the responses, I got exactly what I wanted. I wanted to hear what people thought. I seriously don't mind criticism, remotely. In the previous thread I was getting annoyed that people were talking about graphics AT ALL.
This is how the dialogue went in my head.
"Hey guys, here's this action scene with crappy graphics. What do you think?"
"The graphics are crappy."
"I said they were crappy. What about the action?"
"Okay. But the graphics are still crappy."
"I already know that."
"Why can't you take criticism??"
"..."
It surprised the hell out of me how much graphics mattered. Especially when I noticed the standard of writing on some highly rated games was sooo low. I started this thread to hear opinions on how gamers weigh graphics versus everything else.
I understand now, that I'm dealing with a group of really experienced gamemakers, who consider major oversights to be lazy and unacceptable.
Basically, I can't get this particular project up to par graphically. And not because of any lack of effort. My only option with the facesets is to custom draw every single one. Hundreds of them. And it still wouldn't be as impactful as the existing images. I'd never make any progress on the game.
So I won't bother addressing it. It's a severe weakness in my game; one that will probably prevent people from playing it. That shouldn't stop me from doing what I like to do. Writing my story and bringing it to life in rm.
My story isn't a joke. I'd love to show it to you at some point. It's an ensemble cast of seemingly unrelated characters, with dozens of P.O.V.'s, presented in vignette format. Little complicated to work with, but I keep an excel timeline for all the storylines. Whenever I add a new character/perspective to the timeline, I retroactively add them back into previous scenes as cameos, etc.
Those real life/fiction spoof cameos are only there to be funny. It doesn't impact the story. Say I have an upscale bar with a pianist . That pianist in my game would be Billy Joel. And you'll also find Davy in the Navy, who says he'll probably be there for life.
===========================================================
Other uses of facesets would as such. Have you ever played Dragon Force? There would be a military leader who's the de facto ruler of a country going through political upheaval. That general would have this face.
No one outside his inner circle knows what this person looks like under the mask. Anyone who has played Dragon Force WOULD know. Or at least, they would have a pretty good guess.
YEAH RIGHT! Instant characterization. You know nothing about MY Snake, but you'll be right if you think he's exactly like THE Snake. Also impossible without mix matching facesets. Yeah, I know I could match the charasets too. I been working on that. But facesets are a no go.
Or how about this one?
A regular NPC merchant. The first one is generic, easily uniform faceset. Nothing unusual about him. BORING.
The second face screams "Man, I'm about to swindle you BADLY." That's voice inflection and characterization that no amount of skilled writing can achieve in so little space. Pictures tell a thousand words.
Unfortunately that second picture looks totally different from the other. If I pandered to community standards, I would lose everything that second face brings to the table. That's the kind of thing I don't want to sacrifice. My game won't be liked by others, but at least I will like it.
I wouldn't worry too much about clashing styles if graphics aren't an emphasis for your game. A game that is finished is always going to be better than a beautiful game that is never released, and if people dismiss your game because of any perceived graphical deficiencies then that is their loss. After all, you're not making this game in the hopes of making a ton of money quickly (like, say, the creator of Fortresscraft, who blatantly stole Minecraft and slapped it on Xbox Live Indie Games to make a million dollars for himself).
Criticism and feedback is great, but don't let it slow down the game you want to make. In the end an indy game should reflect an original vision on the part of the creator, and if you stay true to that I'm sure you will succeed.
Criticism and feedback is great, but don't let it slow down the game you want to make. In the end an indy game should reflect an original vision on the part of the creator, and if you stay true to that I'm sure you will succeed.
This is how the dialogue went in my head.
"Hey guys, here's this action scene with crappy graphics. What do you think?"
"The graphics are crappy."
"I said they were crappy. What about the action?"
"Okay. But the graphics are still crappy."
"I already know that."
"Why can't you take criticism??"
"..."
This is like exactly something I said years back; you ain't wrong! But that kind of thing happens sometimes and sadly...the action and the graphics are inextricably linked. (If all of the battle animations were replaced with a static image of a mushroom flashing in the middle of the screen, that would have impacted the action.)
I may respond to other points at a later date.
Cozzer
0
author=LockeZYeah, we liked games before they got mainstream, and that gave us istant moral superiority. (Where is a picture of hipster glasses when you need one?) Wait, you mean this attitude isn't still around?
And RPGers everywhere were all being snobbish like "graphics are meaningless, the only reason anyone likes FF7 or anything else with 3D graphics is because they are little kids who don't understand what makes games truly great, no one who actually is a gamer gives a flying shit about graphics, it doesn't change what's underneath"
What happened to that attitude, that was the best, when did we stop thinking that way :(
author=Sauce
YEAH RIGHT! Instant characterization. You know nothing about MY Snake, but you'll be right if you think he's exactly like THE Snake. Also impossible without mix matching facesets. Yeah, I know I could match the charasets too. I been working on that. But facesets are a no go.
You know, I'm not sure this is a good idea even ignoring the graphics...
I've always found games who include lots of characters from other stories pretty boring. May be a personal taste, though.
Unless the story itself is based around that (multiple universes, Kingdom Hearts style, or some kind of space-time anomaly that makes normaly separate realities clash...)
I wouldn't say those games are boring, but statistically bad. People that just started making games are often the ones who make fan games or use lots of cameos (I know I did to an extent).
TheNecromancer
3160
author=Sauce
This is how the dialogue went in my head.
"Hey guys, here's this action scene with crappy graphics. What do you think?"
"The graphics are crappy."
"I said they were crappy. What about the action?"
"Okay. But the graphics are still crappy."
"I already know that."
"Why can't you take criticism??"
"..."
That's funny, I recall the conversation going something like this:
"Hey guys, here's this action scene with crappy graphics. What do you think?"
"The graphics are crappy."
"I said they were crappy. What about the action?"
"The action is impressive. But the graphics are still crappy."
"I don't see the problem with crappy graphics if the action is cool. Oh and this is a joke game so it's allowed."
"Why can't you take criticism??"
"..."
I understand now, that I'm dealing with a group of really experienced gamemakers, who consider major oversights to be lazy and unacceptable.
You don't have to be a really experienced gamemaker to understand why MAJOR OVERSIGHTS are lazy and unacceptable. You simply need an understanding of basic design principles. If you choose to make a lazy game and insist that "it's a great game anyways" then you will never achieve the recognition you seem to be pursuing. You are presented with the faults of your approach and choose to maintain course; you only have yourself to blame.
Hundred's of pages of notes? You already said yourself that this is a joke game in what I can only assume was an attempt to deflect some of the negative comments about the graphics. But now your saying that the story is no joke. So let me get this straight: it's a joke game with a serious story with joke characters who have serious and thought out background stories taking them out of their own games and putting them in others.....
Basically, I can't get this particular project up to par graphically. And not because of any lack of effort. My only option with the facesets is to custom draw every single one. Hundreds of them. And it still wouldn't be as impactful as the existing images. I'd never make any progress on the game.
Have you ever considered the possibility of not using facesets at all?
Thorgrim103
55
Hey Kentona.
Oh Hey guys you are all talking about clashing Graphics right?
Well my games gonna clash hard. Lets take the Zelda part of my game. Castle town is normal VX While the entrance to castle town will be OOT(other parts might use the OOT tileset) And the over world will be NES zelda or possible LTTP.
For immersions sake this might be bad but I'm trying to make a game with a mix of the game styles.
The TMNT area uses not only nes graphics but snes TMNT. The technodrome uses realistic kinda metallic tiles.
So My game will clash yet each area is themed to be something kinda in that universe. So in my mind I think these graphics will stick out and look unique and be generic sometimes if need be.
It's far from perfect but I think as a person starting out i'm doing pretty decently.
Oh Hey guys you are all talking about clashing Graphics right?
Well my games gonna clash hard. Lets take the Zelda part of my game. Castle town is normal VX While the entrance to castle town will be OOT(other parts might use the OOT tileset) And the over world will be NES zelda or possible LTTP.
For immersions sake this might be bad but I'm trying to make a game with a mix of the game styles.
The TMNT area uses not only nes graphics but snes TMNT. The technodrome uses realistic kinda metallic tiles.
So My game will clash yet each area is themed to be something kinda in that universe. So in my mind I think these graphics will stick out and look unique and be generic sometimes if need be.
It's far from perfect but I think as a person starting out i'm doing pretty decently.
Crystalgate
694
Most people aren't good at presenting anything else than visuals either.
Here's the deal; just because you put something on your page, it doesn't mean you have presented it in a way that makes it easy for us to comment on it. For example, you could make a page where you present your important characters. Unfortunately, those pages usually just contain some blurb about their combat roles and/or their personalities. You may think it's sufficient for us to comment on, but it's not really enough information.
A lot of games have one fighter, one healer/support mage, one offensive spell-caster and one whatever. Some of those games are fun to play, some are not. So, which will your game be?
The same goes for personalities. The description "kind and determined" sometimes means "pain in the ass who rather than being kind, demands that other people are kind" and other times actually means what it says. So, it's not really helpful.
When you describe something about the project, you have to ask yourself "what makes this actually work?" and then try to covey some of it. I have seen projects where by reading their descriptions, I got the impression that the author really knows what he's doing. Usually, that isn't the case though. Heck, sometimes the opposite happens, I can from a screen-shot figure out that the author does not know what he's doing.
Visuals are rather easy though. Just upload some images and we will know whether or not they are any good.
So, I think the problem goes both ways. Not only are a lot of people bad at judging anything else than visuals, but most of us are also bad at presenting anything else than visuals as well.
Other than that, while I think that great visuals are not needed for a good game, bad visuals can ruin an otherwise good game. Make sure they enter at least OK territory.
Here's the deal; just because you put something on your page, it doesn't mean you have presented it in a way that makes it easy for us to comment on it. For example, you could make a page where you present your important characters. Unfortunately, those pages usually just contain some blurb about their combat roles and/or their personalities. You may think it's sufficient for us to comment on, but it's not really enough information.
A lot of games have one fighter, one healer/support mage, one offensive spell-caster and one whatever. Some of those games are fun to play, some are not. So, which will your game be?
The same goes for personalities. The description "kind and determined" sometimes means "pain in the ass who rather than being kind, demands that other people are kind" and other times actually means what it says. So, it's not really helpful.
When you describe something about the project, you have to ask yourself "what makes this actually work?" and then try to covey some of it. I have seen projects where by reading their descriptions, I got the impression that the author really knows what he's doing. Usually, that isn't the case though. Heck, sometimes the opposite happens, I can from a screen-shot figure out that the author does not know what he's doing.
Visuals are rather easy though. Just upload some images and we will know whether or not they are any good.
So, I think the problem goes both ways. Not only are a lot of people bad at judging anything else than visuals, but most of us are also bad at presenting anything else than visuals as well.
Other than that, while I think that great visuals are not needed for a good game, bad visuals can ruin an otherwise good game. Make sure they enter at least OK territory.
I've always found games who include lots of characters from other stories pretty boring. May be a personal taste, though.
Seconded, although I'd go with "nauseatingly stupid" over "pretty boring". I don't touch such things with a ten foot pole, for the most part. I don't even like Kingdom Hearts or Super Smash Brothers, which are better executed than any RM cameo-fest.
Sauce, I'd love to give one of your more serious games a try, if you ever make one. But I am one of those people who really doesn't like "silly" things and I do consider that kind of "character farming" to be the bad kind of silly.
Thorgrim103
55
author=Max McGeeI've always found games who include lots of characters from other stories pretty boring. May be a personal taste, though.Seconded, although I'd go with "nauseatingly stupid" over "pretty boring". I don't touch such things with a ten foot pole, for the most part. I don't even like Kingdom Hearts or Super Smash Brothers, which are better executed than any RM cameo-fest.
Sauce, I'd love to give one of your more serious games a try, if you ever make one. But I am one of those people who really doesn't like "silly" things and I do consider that kind of "character farming" to be the bad kind of silly.
Aww Max you might hate my game then. Derp.
Well I hope to include character interaction. Say for instance When Mario and luigi meet the Ninja turtles they leave your part after being fascinated with the sewers pipelines and willing to help repair the lairs leaks or whatnot.
I know SSBB has no real given story. It's not really voiced and was hard for me to interpret other than the obvious things such as bad bad guy controlling bad guys.
Yet I want my game to have interaction between my characters in comedic or logical ways. Samus believes hyrule is a primitive land; the ninja turtles are broing it up with ryu hyabusa!
What makes KH and SSBB so boring is that the characters don't interact that much. It's only a cameo. I want it to be different.
@Link
Where, oh where did I say my game was gonna be "great" by anyone's standards here?
Secondly, where did I say this game was a joke? There's a ton of comedy relief. I take that to mean I should categorize it as a comedy game.
Lastly, I had a whole section in that last post you responded to as to why I want to use those facesets. Very few of those cameos are remotely important to the story. They're just there inbetween major events for comic relief.
Where, oh where did I say my game was gonna be "great" by anyone's standards here?
Secondly, where did I say this game was a joke? There's a ton of comedy relief. I take that to mean I should categorize it as a comedy game.
Lastly, I had a whole section in that last post you responded to as to why I want to use those facesets. Very few of those cameos are remotely important to the story. They're just there inbetween major events for comic relief.
Even if my game is awkwardly silly sometimes, I wouldn't still fill my game with countless videogame character cameos such as Cloud, the average angsty swordsman retard seen in many RPGs, Mario or anything else. In fact I doubt I would even add any cameos.
I would only probably add references to Gordon Freeman like a crowbar or stuff like that as an easter egg but that's that.
I would only probably add references to Gordon Freeman like a crowbar or stuff like that as an easter egg but that's that.
author=Nightowl
Even if my game is awkwardly silly sometimes, I wouldn't still fill my game with countless videogame character cameos such as Cloud, the average angsty swordsman retard seen in many RPGs, Mario or anything else. In fact I doubt I would even add any cameos.
I would only probably add references to Gordon Freeman like a crowbar or stuff like that as an easter egg but that's that.
Well most of my spoofs would be like... if I need a hotel, it'd be called Hotel California.
That ugly thing in the middle is right off the box art.
The theme inside would be an instrumental version of the song, and all the NPCs would be say something along the lines of the lyrics. A concierge mentions there's pink champagne on ice available. That kind of thing. Zero impact on the integrity of the story, just good fun.
TheNecromancer
3160
It's possible to (subconsciously)imply things without saying them outright.
If your doing silly things like joke credits and random street fighter sound bytes then it's a joke game. It's what most would consider "low brow humor". Putting jarring things in the game for shock value.
A comedy game would be genuinely funny (to the average person). It's achieved by using smart means of comedy; clever dialogue exchanges, humorous situations, play on words... Your game might have some of this.
It seems like your mixing the two, so it comes out as a joke game. Lowest common denominator.
I'm not the arbiter of comedy. These are just my opinions. There is another topic on Comedy Games somewhere in the forum. It's one of the hardest aspects of a game to do right on a broad scale; "comedy" varies from person to person. You say comedy - I say joke.
author=Sauce
11/20/2011 10:56 PM
@ lockez - this game is a comedy, hence the pig final boss, and the joke credits
If your doing silly things like joke credits and random street fighter sound bytes then it's a joke game. It's what most would consider "low brow humor". Putting jarring things in the game for shock value.
A comedy game would be genuinely funny (to the average person). It's achieved by using smart means of comedy; clever dialogue exchanges, humorous situations, play on words... Your game might have some of this.
It seems like your mixing the two, so it comes out as a joke game. Lowest common denominator.
I'm not the arbiter of comedy. These are just my opinions. There is another topic on Comedy Games somewhere in the forum. It's one of the hardest aspects of a game to do right on a broad scale; "comedy" varies from person to person. You say comedy - I say joke.
