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GATHERING DATA DURING GAMEPLAY. YES OR NO?
Posts
emmych
817
emmych
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Closeauthor=Max McGeeA player should be able to have fun playing however they want to play (see people who like to low ball or do single character runs in RPGs). Obviously not everyone will be able to play the way they want to, and you will never be able to please everyone (some people like random encounters because it keeps them on edge and makes it easy to grind, others hate them because it cuts up exploration; some people like puzzles because it makes them think, others hate them because they see it as a really easy way to trap players for hours at a time), but I do think the only times you should be saying "you're doing it wrong" is when a player starts, say... healing enemies and punching their allies in the face and then complains when they keep losing.I feel that as a game designer, you should never really use phrases like "No, you're playing my game wrong," or "Stick with it, it gets better later."
Why? I mean, from the perspective of a game designer I can see how trying to make your game as fun as possible from the getgo is a good idea. It's certainly what I do...
As for "it gets better" - there is only one game I've ever said that about, and that's only because the first portion of it is legitimately fun - the thing that's broken is the plot. xDDDD See, as a player, I have nothing to lose by quitting your game. If there isn't anything interesting me right now, what would I gain if I kept going?
I think the beginning of a game is the most important part of an RPG, because you gotta set the tone for the battles, dungeons, story, bluh bluh bluh. Stuffing the player into a twenty minute opening and then having them do fetch quests for an hour or two before the game kicks off (fucking Skyward Sword, I am looking at you so hard when it comes to the latter) is just bad game design! I think you should be chucking out your best work first - start the players off in a fun dungeon, get the players fighting some battles, introduce them to the most exciting characters in the most exciting scenario (exciting being highly subjective, here)
Slow cutscenes and fetch quests come later - give me a reason to slog through them; make me love your game first.
@Topic: As far as this goes; yeah, I think this is actually a really good idea. I'll probably steal it from you and do something similar. OTL
Killer Wolf
1235
author=Cozzer
As an indie developer, I doubt you could have enough players to get statistically significant informations about something so heavily influenced by so many external issues. °°
Thanks for the vote of confidence! But seriously, I understand that. I'm thinking more along the lines of "If five people test it and three or four of them all throw roughly the same data, then I should probably check that area out to see what is causing people to play it that way."
author=LockeZ
I have an RMXP script that allows you to specify times for automatic checkpoint saves (I have one just before each battle but you could do them anywhere you want) and then loads from the checkpoint upon game over. If you're using RMXP, I can mail this to you. If you're using VX or something else, it's not so useful, but I'm sure similar scripts exist out there for VX.
I'll probably use patched/modded 2k3 or VX (I'm almost certainly going to start in 2k3 first, and then maybe port to VX if/when I get better with it). I have XP, but I never really did much with it. If you wouldn't mind sending it to me anyway, I'd appreciate it. I've been trying to get my head around scripting a little more lately.
author=Max McGee
Why? I mean, from the perspective of a game designer I can see how trying to make your game as fun as possible from the getgo is a good idea...
BUT
As a game PLAYER these are both totally valid statements.
I just don't think it is something a dev should ever fall back on. Nobody is going to make the perfect game, because the definition of perfection will vary from person to person, as emmych said.
It also goes back to that one post I made that you didn't appreciate Kentona quoting in the "Indie Games Getting Attention" thread.
As a player, if I have to have someone tell me to "stick with it, it gets better" to keep me playing a game that I'm not enjoying, perhaps I need to sit them down and explain to them what I'm looking for in a game.
Now, if it is just a voice in the back of my head telling me, "You paid 60 dollars for this, if you give up after forty five minutes, I'm going to beat the living hell out of you with a baseball bat," that is something else. In a free game though, especially considering it would be among a sea of OTHER free games, the normal player doesn't owe my game any of that forced loyalty. If they aren't having fun, the can move onto something else. I just want to know WHAT they aren't enjoying. Taking it in as data also removes the emotion from it. If someone says "This sucks, you suck for making it," that tells me nothing. If I see that the person gave up after they spent ten minutes trying to open a door because I did a bad job of explaining that they had to throw a lever one flight up, that is something I can address.
"Stick with it" CAN be legitimate in the testing phase. "This area is pretty rough, but keep going, the next one is pretty solid and I could use some feedback on the new enemy types it introduces."
If someone isn't enjoying my game, or hits something in it they really don't like, that is something that I would like to know about so I can, possibly, address it... it wastes both my time, and theirs, for me to just say, "No, you were doing it wrong. THIS is how you play the game." That is, pretty much, what I meant with that statement.
author=emmych
Slow cutscenes and fetch quests come later - give me a reason to slog through them; make me love your game first.
A lot of my old projects didn't follow this rule, unfortunately, but it is something I'm working on for future releases!
Now, if it is just a voice in the back of my head telling me, "You paid 60 dollars for this, if you give up after forty five minutes, I'm going to beat the living hell out of you with a baseball bat," that is something else. In a free game though, especially considering it would be among a sea of OTHER free games, the normal player doesn't owe my game any of that forced loyalty.
See I find this repugnant double-standard of basic human psychology to be utterly grotesque. For fuck's sake, people should really be willing to give something they got for free more of a chance than something they paid for.
I accept that "that's just how human psychology works brah" but I also think we really need to change that and all the other shitty, shitty, shitty, shitty parts of human nature.
But I made an entire thread about this BS, I don't mean to hijack yours. : )
Killer Wolf
1235
author=Max McGee
But I made an entire thread about this BS, I don't mean to hijack yours. : )
I bumped it for cross talk.
As for this topic, it has probably just about run its course for now. The consensus I'm getting is that data gathering isn't quite as intrusive as I thought it might seem.
All that is left is for me to experiment with getting my routines to function how I want, resolve auto-naming issues to prevent (or at least reduce the incidence of) different users overwriting existing data anytime the auto-uploader runs (provided it works, reliably) if I go the background/passive collection route, and figure out how best to integrate it with whichever maker's .exe that I end up using.
Oh, and I have to actually make the games for it to go in. I always forget the little details! =)
Cozzer
0
I replied to the whole "respect" thing in its own topic.
Hey, I do hope you'll have tons of players, if only to confirm that this "gathering data" thing is a great idea. :P
Anyway, I believe you'll be able to get meaningful data from "in-game" actions: the only thing I have doubts on is the "measure the time frame between when the player stops playing and when he picks up the game again" one, because it's really too random.
author=KillerWolf
Thanks for the vote of confidence! But seriously, I understand that. I'm thinking more along the lines of "If five people test it and three or four of them all throw roughly the same data, then I should probably check that area out to see what is causing people to play it that way."
Hey, I do hope you'll have tons of players, if only to confirm that this "gathering data" thing is a great idea. :P
Anyway, I believe you'll be able to get meaningful data from "in-game" actions: the only thing I have doubts on is the "measure the time frame between when the player stops playing and when he picks up the game again" one, because it's really too random.
stardust
246
This is a really interessting topic. Like with achievements there are some really interesting other data to be collected, like the decisions made by the player. BioWare published a statistic of their game Mass Effect 2, showing that most of the players chose a male hero\Shepard or other storyevent-based decisions.
I implicitly did this with my current project Numina in a community. I asked the players which of the (back then) two romance options they like the most - and the result and the ongoing discussion was really interesting to follow, from my perspective - the creator of those characters. Just to see how they are perceived and so on.
I implicitly did this with my current project Numina in a community. I asked the players which of the (back then) two romance options they like the most - and the result and the ongoing discussion was really interesting to follow, from my perspective - the creator of those characters. Just to see how they are perceived and so on.
