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GRAPHICS AND THE SORTS
Posts
Gourd_Clae
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CloseSo. Whenever a game is in 3 dimensions and has excellently rendered graphics and are stunning, it seems like the main complaint is always" Gah! It's like I'm watching a movie!" I'm genuinely curious as to why people say that, I mean, they are called VIDEO games. But, when there a combination of 3d and painted pictures(like in Chrono Cross) nobody says anything about it except for"Oh, it's SO beautiful!" Don't get me wrong! I love that kind of style of graphics, and 2d(like SNES and RpgMaker games), but I simply don't understand what's wrong about 3d. So, I'm curious as to your takes on this.
People say it's like watching a movie because most new gen games are cinematic and barely has gameplay in them. Or overly long animations I guess.
Yeah it's not about the graphical style, it's about how the game itself is. More newer games are more cinematic and scripted rather than letting you have the freedom.
That and most 3D games tend to like to try to be "realistic" rather than using the 3D for interesting artistic styles.
That and most 3D games tend to like to try to be "realistic" rather than using the 3D for interesting artistic styles.
DBAce9Aura
52
Yeah, I'm gonna have to side with Ocean and Nessiah on this one.
The general impression I'm getting from those games and this situation in general is that developers have yet to find a way to prove to the masses that "for the love of Odin, this game actually has a story in it" without pursuing the "more cutscenes, less gameplay" camp of design.
The general impression I'm getting from those games and this situation in general is that developers have yet to find a way to prove to the masses that "for the love of Odin, this game actually has a story in it" without pursuing the "more cutscenes, less gameplay" camp of design.
Wait, we have sides now?! Just kidding. But, what if it DID have an obvious story? Also, why would they say it's like watching a movie? Still, I'm starting to understand it a little better now.
author=Gourd_Clae
Also, why would they say it's like watching a movie? Still,
Well, if it's anything like that really long Metal Gear cutscene I hear about from my friends (it supposedly lasts more than 15 minutes..)
And after playing Deus Ex: HR (which i got for christmas) I can say "good lord there were quite a bit of cutscenes in there.."
MGS4 had some long long long cutscenes. Not only were they actually long, they felt longer than they were because of how boring they were. That game might be the most extreme example of what you're talking about.
It's not the quality of movie elements from a game that people would complain about. It's that the graphics and cinematics are there in lieu of actual gameplay/story etc.
The reason the quality of graphics is mentioned at all is because we know that's where all the budget is going. And the wish is for all that money to be redirected towards making the game fun.
This complaint has nothing to do with the graphics, but the games themselves. If you don't get it, play Xenosaga 1... on a second thought, don't. Just watch the first hour on YT.
Now, that most 3D games do look identical due to wanting to be photorealistic is a fact. Unique takes on 3D are rare (Okami, Ico, etc.), most developers try to achieve as realistic graphics as possible. In the future games will look and feel like movies with human actors, but that will be a -good- thing.
Now, with 2D the graphic artists have much more freedom and can create truly unique worlds - compare FF7 to Chrono Cross to Sa-Ga Frontier 2 to Valkyrie Profile. One word - variety.
There's also the case of readability. With 2D the audience will always experience the scene the way the author intended, getting the most out of every map, carefully positioning each element, each character, and having actual real-time cutscene direction. With 3D you don't see shit. Sure, there will be breathtaking views, but everyone will see them from different vantage points and they won't have as big an impact. Not to mention many players don't care about the views and simply run from room to room gunning mobs - 3D games are usually simply too sight-intensive to allow the player to inspect the surroundings. There's also the case of limiting perspectives (1st person/over-the-shoulder 3rd person).
There's nothing wrong with 3D games per se, it's that most of them look samey. That said, both 2D and 3D serve different functions and it would be a shame to see one of them go.
Now, that most 3D games do look identical due to wanting to be photorealistic is a fact. Unique takes on 3D are rare (Okami, Ico, etc.), most developers try to achieve as realistic graphics as possible. In the future games will look and feel like movies with human actors, but that will be a -good- thing.
Now, with 2D the graphic artists have much more freedom and can create truly unique worlds - compare FF7 to Chrono Cross to Sa-Ga Frontier 2 to Valkyrie Profile. One word - variety.
There's also the case of readability. With 2D the audience will always experience the scene the way the author intended, getting the most out of every map, carefully positioning each element, each character, and having actual real-time cutscene direction. With 3D you don't see shit. Sure, there will be breathtaking views, but everyone will see them from different vantage points and they won't have as big an impact. Not to mention many players don't care about the views and simply run from room to room gunning mobs - 3D games are usually simply too sight-intensive to allow the player to inspect the surroundings. There's also the case of limiting perspectives (1st person/over-the-shoulder 3rd person).
There's nothing wrong with 3D games per se, it's that most of them look samey. That said, both 2D and 3D serve different functions and it would be a shame to see one of them go.
author=DE
Now, that most 3D games do look identical due to wanting to be photorealistic is a fact.
lmao
Shinan
4314
3d can do anything 2d can and more. Basically 3d is superior in every way imaginable. You can lock the camera similar to how it is locked in a 2d game in a polygon world. You can also limit the camera in far more interesting ways than in a sprite-based world.
You can also change perspectives and "direct" scenes with far more ease than in a 2d game. (try changing a "camera angle" in a 2d cutscene... yeah, that's a lot of work isn't it?) So DE you're basically wrong on every single account.
3d offers more freedom, more variety and more options.
I guess somewhere in the mid-nineties I was vary about 3d, because it just seemed to make everything look so much worse. But that was fifteen years ago. I know we are the rpgmaker community that thrives on old times but sometimes you have to get your head out of the sand. Seriously.
You can also change perspectives and "direct" scenes with far more ease than in a 2d game. (try changing a "camera angle" in a 2d cutscene... yeah, that's a lot of work isn't it?) So DE you're basically wrong on every single account.
3d offers more freedom, more variety and more options.
I guess somewhere in the mid-nineties I was vary about 3d, because it just seemed to make everything look so much worse. But that was fifteen years ago. I know we are the rpgmaker community that thrives on old times but sometimes you have to get your head out of the sand. Seriously.
3D CAN do that, but it usually DOESN'T. That's a huge difference.
Most of the story-driven games of today are either first person or "second person" (a'la RE4). In the former the perspective rarely changes, if ever, you're always seeing everything through your avatar's eyes, which severely limits what can be shown on the screen. In the latter the perspective usually changes only during non-interactive cutscenes (QTE be damned). I was talking about scene direction in interactive cutscenes in 2D.
You can achieve lots of things in 3D that you can't in 2D, sure, but there's also things that work very well in 2D that don't work nearly as well in 3D.
So no, I am not wrong, and your condescending tone is not helping the discussion.
I sustain my statement that most games of today, especially AAA titles, strive for photorealism and not avant-gardism.
Most of the story-driven games of today are either first person or "second person" (a'la RE4). In the former the perspective rarely changes, if ever, you're always seeing everything through your avatar's eyes, which severely limits what can be shown on the screen. In the latter the perspective usually changes only during non-interactive cutscenes (QTE be damned). I was talking about scene direction in interactive cutscenes in 2D.
You can achieve lots of things in 3D that you can't in 2D, sure, but there's also things that work very well in 2D that don't work nearly as well in 3D.
So no, I am not wrong, and your condescending tone is not helping the discussion.
I sustain my statement that most games of today, especially AAA titles, strive for photorealism and not avant-gardism.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I remember when all gamers except little kids and frat bros used to believe that graphics were meaningless and added nothing to games.
I miss those days.
I miss those days.
Killer Wolf
1235
Xenosaga was really the first game I was aware of that beat me over the head with cutscenes. It was like they took the approach from the second disc of Xenogears and said, okay, lets do THIS. I remember people joking about "Well, I just beat a boss... so I'm going to go make a sandwich and wash my car, I'll be back in time to catch the important stuff before gameplay starts again."
For a while, it felt like the formula was: Play a little bit of game, get a nice long cutscene to reward you for playing. It felt like the movies were the point, and the gameplay was something tacked on so that it could be marketed as a game instead of an incredibly dense 50 hour anime series. (That is a little unfair, because I did enjoy all the XS games, but this was a really popular description of them.)
Now, I guess it just has to go with story integration. It has been a couple months since I played DE:HR, but I don't remember thinking it was particularly cutscene heavy. Of course, that may just be me, and the particular set of blinders I am augmented with thanks to my adoration of Deus Ex and its children (even the red headed stepchild that is Invisible War). To me, I never had one of those "Oh for f_cks sake, just let me get back to the damn game" moments that I've had with, oh lets say, games in the MGS series.
For a while, it felt like the formula was: Play a little bit of game, get a nice long cutscene to reward you for playing. It felt like the movies were the point, and the gameplay was something tacked on so that it could be marketed as a game instead of an incredibly dense 50 hour anime series. (That is a little unfair, because I did enjoy all the XS games, but this was a really popular description of them.)
Now, I guess it just has to go with story integration. It has been a couple months since I played DE:HR, but I don't remember thinking it was particularly cutscene heavy. Of course, that may just be me, and the particular set of blinders I am augmented with thanks to my adoration of Deus Ex and its children (even the red headed stepchild that is Invisible War). To me, I never had one of those "Oh for f_cks sake, just let me get back to the damn game" moments that I've had with, oh lets say, games in the MGS series.
author=DEYeah...I did that and I see what you mean. Cutscene mania. Yay!
This complaint has nothing to do with the graphics, but the games themselves. If you don't get it, play Xenosaga 1... on a second thought, don't. Just watch the first hour on YT
author=ShinanPretty much how I'm feeling about this.
3d can do anything 2d can and more.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The defining feature of Xenosaga Ep. 1 is that its opening movie is so long they had to add a save point 30 minutes into it for people who needed a break.
I haven't played Human Revolution, but the original DE had cutscenes of just the right length - not too long, not too short, and certainly not pointless. Now MGS4, on the other hand...
author=DE
I sustain my statement that most games of today, especially AAA titles, strive for photorealism and not avant-gardism.
Truth. That I have to post that I agree with this by over 9000.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Isn't avant-garde just a polite term for "something that pretends to be artsy as an excuse for lack of substance"? I mean I can honestly say this is the first time in my life I have heard the term used in anything but a tongue-in-cheek way. I always hear the term used to describe stuff like theater performances where the actors don't show up, or concerts that consist totally of a guy making phlegm noises into a microphone for six hours.
