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Stats are for Sissies: Alternatives to Traditional Growth Mechanics
What about a relationship-based system? The tabletop RPG Bliss Stage comes to mind. For those not familiar, you can read a synopsis here; https://sites.google.com/a/loveismyweapon.com/love-is-my-wiki/what-is-bliss-stage
The Death Penalty
@Snodgrass
while I can understand and appreciate your academic interest there, in this context, the discussion is about "Game Overs", not character deaths.
To go back on topic...
I'm interested in what ideas people can come up with to reward the player for dying?
One idea, is reincarnation, the players are ghosts or A.I. or clones with transferred memories, however you want to explain it. Whenever a character dies, a new replacement body can be acquired, perhaps granting new and/or different abilities.
while I can understand and appreciate your academic interest there, in this context, the discussion is about "Game Overs", not character deaths.
To go back on topic...
I'm interested in what ideas people can come up with to reward the player for dying?
One idea, is reincarnation, the players are ghosts or A.I. or clones with transferred memories, however you want to explain it. Whenever a character dies, a new replacement body can be acquired, perhaps granting new and/or different abilities.
Skill Conceptualization
Here's another elemental system I cooked up a long time ago for a custom D&D campaign setting, this seems like an appropriate enough place to post it. It's a little bit complicated, so fair warning, okay?
Basically, there are 8 different elements, in two overlapping 'wheels' of 4 elements each.
Fire, Water, Earth and Wind make up one wheel
Sun, Moon, Wood and Shadow make up the other
Each element has one Opposed element, representing that element's polar opposite, Opposing elements very strong against each other (attacks deal double damage, status effects always hit).
Each element also has two Subjugated elements, these are elements that the primary element has dominion over (attacks deal +50% more damage, status effects are more likely to land). Unlike opposing elements, this weakness goes one way. Elements that Subjugate an element are said to Dominate that element.
Fire: The element of heat, destruction, anger and desire.
Fire is Opposed to Water, Subjugates Earth and Wood, and is Dominated by Wind and Moon
Water: The element of water, cold, tranquility, and purity.
Water is Opposed to Fire, Subjugates Wind and Moon, and is Dominated by Earth and Wood
Earth: The element of earth, wisdom, stability and craft.
Earth is Opposed to Wind, Subjugates Water and Shadow, and is Dominated by Fire and Sun
Wind: The element of wind, freedom, communication, and transportation.
Wind is Opposed to Earth, Subjugates Fire and Sun, and is Dominated by Water and Shadow
Wood: The element of wood, insects, poison and growth.
Wood is Opposed to Moon, Subjugates Water and Sun, and is Dominated by Fire and Shadow
Moon: The element of moon, beasts, transformation and mental power.
Moon is Opposed to Wood, Subjugates Fire and Shadow, and is Dominated by Water and Sun
Sun: the element of sun, light, healing, and order.
Sun is Opposed to Shadow, Subjugates Earth and Moon, and is Dominated by Wind and Wood
Shadow: the element of shadow, darkness, entropy and chaos.
Shadow is Opposed to Sun, Subjugates Wind and Wood, and is Dominated by Earth and Moon
In the original setting, the above system was coupled with characters that were built around having an affinity for a specific element, giving them greater proficiency with that element and lesser in others. This was intended to incentivise risk. Bringing a water-element character to an area with mostly fire-element foes is very risky, as they would be highly vulnerable to their damage and status effects, but they would also deal much more damage themselves. Bringing a Wind or Moon-element character would be safer defensively, but not as effective offensively. Bringing a Fire element character would be very safe defensively, but rather ineffective offensively.
I imagine a this system or one similar would work best in a story with a lot of characters, a minimum of 8, 16 could work as well, but 24 is pushing it, and more then that would simply be too many unless nearly all of the extras are only around temporarily.
Basically, there are 8 different elements, in two overlapping 'wheels' of 4 elements each.
Fire, Water, Earth and Wind make up one wheel
Sun, Moon, Wood and Shadow make up the other
Each element has one Opposed element, representing that element's polar opposite, Opposing elements very strong against each other (attacks deal double damage, status effects always hit).
Each element also has two Subjugated elements, these are elements that the primary element has dominion over (attacks deal +50% more damage, status effects are more likely to land). Unlike opposing elements, this weakness goes one way. Elements that Subjugate an element are said to Dominate that element.
Fire: The element of heat, destruction, anger and desire.
Fire is Opposed to Water, Subjugates Earth and Wood, and is Dominated by Wind and Moon
Water: The element of water, cold, tranquility, and purity.
Water is Opposed to Fire, Subjugates Wind and Moon, and is Dominated by Earth and Wood
Earth: The element of earth, wisdom, stability and craft.
Earth is Opposed to Wind, Subjugates Water and Shadow, and is Dominated by Fire and Sun
Wind: The element of wind, freedom, communication, and transportation.
Wind is Opposed to Earth, Subjugates Fire and Sun, and is Dominated by Water and Shadow
Wood: The element of wood, insects, poison and growth.
Wood is Opposed to Moon, Subjugates Water and Sun, and is Dominated by Fire and Shadow
Moon: The element of moon, beasts, transformation and mental power.
Moon is Opposed to Wood, Subjugates Fire and Shadow, and is Dominated by Water and Sun
Sun: the element of sun, light, healing, and order.
Sun is Opposed to Shadow, Subjugates Earth and Moon, and is Dominated by Wind and Wood
Shadow: the element of shadow, darkness, entropy and chaos.
Shadow is Opposed to Sun, Subjugates Wind and Wood, and is Dominated by Earth and Moon
In the original setting, the above system was coupled with characters that were built around having an affinity for a specific element, giving them greater proficiency with that element and lesser in others. This was intended to incentivise risk. Bringing a water-element character to an area with mostly fire-element foes is very risky, as they would be highly vulnerable to their damage and status effects, but they would also deal much more damage themselves. Bringing a Wind or Moon-element character would be safer defensively, but not as effective offensively. Bringing a Fire element character would be very safe defensively, but rather ineffective offensively.
I imagine a this system or one similar would work best in a story with a lot of characters, a minimum of 8, 16 could work as well, but 24 is pushing it, and more then that would simply be too many unless nearly all of the extras are only around temporarily.
Stats are for Sissies: Alternatives to Traditional Growth Mechanics
I like the idea of replacing stats with 'affinities', but i'd prefer are more give-and-take system then as posted in the OP. Perhaps a wheel of elemental effects, where increasing one stat decreases another.
perhaps a wheel like this; Water(DEF)>Fire(ATK)>Earth(MDEF)>Thunder(MATK)>Water, where increasing one affinity will greatly reduce your affinity for the stat to the right, and slightly reduce it for the stat to the left. (perhaps one 'level up' of a stat will increase that affinity by +6%, reduce the subordinate affinity by -3%, the neutral affinity by -2%, and reduce the superior affinity by -1%.) Affinities are multiplied against a character's base stats to determine their actual stats, and range from 1% to 199%.
If you started with 100% affinity in all stats, and spent 16 level ups increasing the same stat (let's say Fire), you'd end up with affinities like so;
Water Affinity 84% (below average physical defense +16% damage from water element)
Fire Affinity 196% (very high physical attack, -96% damage from fire element)
Earth Affinity 52% (very low magical defense, +48% damage from earth element)
Thunder Affinity 68% (low magical attack, +32% damage from thunder element)
Sun Affinity (HP) 68% (derived from the average of Water and Earth affinity)
Moon Affinity (MP) 132% (derived from the average of Fire and Thunder affinity)
perhaps a wheel like this; Water(DEF)>Fire(ATK)>Earth(MDEF)>Thunder(MATK)>Water, where increasing one affinity will greatly reduce your affinity for the stat to the right, and slightly reduce it for the stat to the left. (perhaps one 'level up' of a stat will increase that affinity by +6%, reduce the subordinate affinity by -3%, the neutral affinity by -2%, and reduce the superior affinity by -1%.) Affinities are multiplied against a character's base stats to determine their actual stats, and range from 1% to 199%.
If you started with 100% affinity in all stats, and spent 16 level ups increasing the same stat (let's say Fire), you'd end up with affinities like so;
Water Affinity 84% (below average physical defense +16% damage from water element)
Fire Affinity 196% (very high physical attack, -96% damage from fire element)
Earth Affinity 52% (very low magical defense, +48% damage from earth element)
Thunder Affinity 68% (low magical attack, +32% damage from thunder element)
Sun Affinity (HP) 68% (derived from the average of Water and Earth affinity)
Moon Affinity (MP) 132% (derived from the average of Fire and Thunder affinity)
Realistic Difficulty Curve?
My favored approach is to lean more towards gear-based progression rather then level-based, since it offers greater control over pacing.
Of course, there's nothing saying you can't mix and match advancement types In the same game
For example, take the early gameboy SaGa games, and specifically SaGa 3, in it, you had three main races, Human/Mutant, Monster and Robot, as well as two hybrid/transitionary races, Beastman and Cyborg. Humans and Mutants progressed more or less at 50% level and 50% gear, whereas Beastmen were more like 75% level 25% gear, and monsters were pretty much 100% level based. On the other end of the sprectrum, cyborgs were mostly gear based, and robots 100% gear based in advancement.
Of course, there's nothing saying you can't mix and match advancement types In the same game
For example, take the early gameboy SaGa games, and specifically SaGa 3, in it, you had three main races, Human/Mutant, Monster and Robot, as well as two hybrid/transitionary races, Beastman and Cyborg. Humans and Mutants progressed more or less at 50% level and 50% gear, whereas Beastmen were more like 75% level 25% gear, and monsters were pretty much 100% level based. On the other end of the sprectrum, cyborgs were mostly gear based, and robots 100% gear based in advancement.
Gearing Up and Pace of Distribution
I am also a fan of increasing variety over straight power upgrades when it comes to equipment. Something like say, 9 variations per equipment type (not counting starting equipment). Equipment "Tiers" in this case would be used to determine the order in which new equipment types are recieved, and equipment type would determine the focus of the spread.
For example, imagine that there are 4 weapons types, Swords, Knives, Axes and Staves, with 9 variations on each type (not counting starting equipment).
Swords: balanced weapon type, offers an even spread of variation types, some status inflictors, some stat buffers, some elemental damage weapons, and some special attack form weapons (a Two-Handed Sword that attacks twice, perhaps).
Knives: low raw power, but can be dual-wielded, weapon variations almostly always inflict status, with a few dealing elemental damage and/or buffing status.
Axes: High raw power, requires two hands, variations almost always buff status, with a few inflicting status and/or having a special attack form (Tomahawk? Flying Guillotine?)
Staves: moderate power, requires two hands, variations almost always deal elemental damage with a few having special attack forms (Goku Rod that hits all foes?) (the idea here is that mages would actualy have a fairly decent physical attack against foes weak against thier stave's element)
this trend can be extended for other weapon types as well, like claws for example, like knives, they can be dual-wielded, but unlike knives, they deal mostly elemental damage, making them ideal for hitting elemental weaknessess. In all cases, the straight numeric power of the weapons has changed very little.
For example, imagine that there are 4 weapons types, Swords, Knives, Axes and Staves, with 9 variations on each type (not counting starting equipment).
Swords: balanced weapon type, offers an even spread of variation types, some status inflictors, some stat buffers, some elemental damage weapons, and some special attack form weapons (a Two-Handed Sword that attacks twice, perhaps).
Knives: low raw power, but can be dual-wielded, weapon variations almostly always inflict status, with a few dealing elemental damage and/or buffing status.
Axes: High raw power, requires two hands, variations almost always buff status, with a few inflicting status and/or having a special attack form (Tomahawk? Flying Guillotine?)
Staves: moderate power, requires two hands, variations almost always deal elemental damage with a few having special attack forms (Goku Rod that hits all foes?) (the idea here is that mages would actualy have a fairly decent physical attack against foes weak against thier stave's element)
this trend can be extended for other weapon types as well, like claws for example, like knives, they can be dual-wielded, but unlike knives, they deal mostly elemental damage, making them ideal for hitting elemental weaknessess. In all cases, the straight numeric power of the weapons has changed very little.
Skill Conceptualization
This is a pretty good beginning, I like it. One thought is what about non-standard elements? Something like the following;
Thermal: The Thermal element represents effects that are generated by rapid and extreme temperature change of the target, it encompasses both heat AND cold-based effects. Status effects linked to Thermal element would be Burn/Aflame (Damage Over Time + Int Debuff), Overheat (Silence), Frostbite (Slow) and Frozen (Paralyze).
Chemical: The Chemical element represents acids, bases, poisonous and toxic materials, as well as possibly even radiation, on the other hand, it also represents medicine and drugs. Many Chemical skills take the form of an airborne gas, affecting the entire battlefield. Chemical element skills would cause a lot of status effects, such as; Acid (DoT + Def Debuff), Poison (DoT, Persists until cured), Blind, Sleep, Paralyze, Volatile (Debuff Thermal Resist), Hyper (DoT + all stat buff), Painkiller/Numb (Defense Buff + Int/Agi Debuff)
Electrical: The Electrical element represents electrical discharges, as well as EMP effects, Real-Time computer hacking, and other effects. Status effects associated with Electrical element would be; Short Circut (Paralyze, Machine Only), Shock (Stun), Revive, Haywire (Confusion, Machine Only), Delete (Silence, Machine Only), Anti-Virus (protects agains Virus status, Machine Only), Virus (all stat debuff, Machine Only), Reprogram (Charm, Machine Only)
Kinetic: The Kinetic element represents physical damage resulting from smashing, cutting or tearing the target. Most Kinetic attack skills would actually be associated with other elements, such as Railgun (High Single target Kinetic damage, grouped with Electrical skills), or Missile (Thermal/Kinetic AoE damage, grouped with thermal). Kinetic only has a few associated status effects, Bleeding (DoT + Atk Debuff), Snare (Paralyze), and Ablative Shield (+ Sonic/Kinetic Resist Buff)
Sonic: The sonic element represents effects based on sound or concussive force, such as from explosives or earthquakes. Nearly all Sonic element skills are AoE effects. Status effects associated with sonic element are; White Noise (Int Debuff), Knockdown (Stun), Shaken (Def Debuff), Theme Song (All stats Buff).
Psychological: the Psych element represents mental and emotional effects. Machines and other mindless or near-mindless creatures such as bugs, plants and zombies tend to be completely immune to the Psych element. This, along with the Chemical element, hold the majority of healing skills. Psychological status effects include; Charm, Confusion, Berserk, Focus (Int + Atk buff), Cheer (Regen).
Then there is also the use of elements as 'Flags' to signify special attack types.
Melee: elemental flag the represents that the caster must physically touch the target to perform the attack. Flying and Submerged targets are immune to melee attacks.
Anti-Air: elemental flag that represents an attack form that is more effective or only effective against flying targets.
Anti-Sub: represents sub-surface attacks such as earthquakes, or torpedoes, that are particularly effective against submerged targets.
Thermal: The Thermal element represents effects that are generated by rapid and extreme temperature change of the target, it encompasses both heat AND cold-based effects. Status effects linked to Thermal element would be Burn/Aflame (Damage Over Time + Int Debuff), Overheat (Silence), Frostbite (Slow) and Frozen (Paralyze).
Chemical: The Chemical element represents acids, bases, poisonous and toxic materials, as well as possibly even radiation, on the other hand, it also represents medicine and drugs. Many Chemical skills take the form of an airborne gas, affecting the entire battlefield. Chemical element skills would cause a lot of status effects, such as; Acid (DoT + Def Debuff), Poison (DoT, Persists until cured), Blind, Sleep, Paralyze, Volatile (Debuff Thermal Resist), Hyper (DoT + all stat buff), Painkiller/Numb (Defense Buff + Int/Agi Debuff)
Electrical: The Electrical element represents electrical discharges, as well as EMP effects, Real-Time computer hacking, and other effects. Status effects associated with Electrical element would be; Short Circut (Paralyze, Machine Only), Shock (Stun), Revive, Haywire (Confusion, Machine Only), Delete (Silence, Machine Only), Anti-Virus (protects agains Virus status, Machine Only), Virus (all stat debuff, Machine Only), Reprogram (Charm, Machine Only)
Kinetic: The Kinetic element represents physical damage resulting from smashing, cutting or tearing the target. Most Kinetic attack skills would actually be associated with other elements, such as Railgun (High Single target Kinetic damage, grouped with Electrical skills), or Missile (Thermal/Kinetic AoE damage, grouped with thermal). Kinetic only has a few associated status effects, Bleeding (DoT + Atk Debuff), Snare (Paralyze), and Ablative Shield (+ Sonic/Kinetic Resist Buff)
Sonic: The sonic element represents effects based on sound or concussive force, such as from explosives or earthquakes. Nearly all Sonic element skills are AoE effects. Status effects associated with sonic element are; White Noise (Int Debuff), Knockdown (Stun), Shaken (Def Debuff), Theme Song (All stats Buff).
Psychological: the Psych element represents mental and emotional effects. Machines and other mindless or near-mindless creatures such as bugs, plants and zombies tend to be completely immune to the Psych element. This, along with the Chemical element, hold the majority of healing skills. Psychological status effects include; Charm, Confusion, Berserk, Focus (Int + Atk buff), Cheer (Regen).
Then there is also the use of elements as 'Flags' to signify special attack types.
Melee: elemental flag the represents that the caster must physically touch the target to perform the attack. Flying and Submerged targets are immune to melee attacks.
Anti-Air: elemental flag that represents an attack form that is more effective or only effective against flying targets.
Anti-Sub: represents sub-surface attacks such as earthquakes, or torpedoes, that are particularly effective against submerged targets.
The Death Penalty
author=Overload
What about the games were you are encouraged to die? Does that count?
Now I'm imagining a game where say, the main character is a ghost possessing some host, and every time the party dies they return to spirit form, where they have to find a new host to possess (which could possibly be the body of a former party member!)
Non-combat skills & party members
in the original D&D skills were a simple binary check, you either had a skill or you didn't. It is this format that I feel works best for most rpg's.
If someone in the party has the skill (Pick Locks) then you can attempt a lock picking mini-game to pick certain locks, or simply bypass locks that you would have otherwise had to obtain a key for. Perhaps in this case there can be different levels of this skill, like say, a more generalized (Theif) skill that can only open simple locks.
If someone in the party has the skill (Diplomat) then in dialog events, you have access to special options where the character in question speaks up, same thing with similar skills like (Bluff) or (Attractive) or (Trustworthy).
If someone in the party has the skill (Scholar) then you get different text prompts from examining bookcases and similar items, that give out clues to hidden content, boss weaknesses, as well as simply more bits of world lore. The (Scholar) Trait could also have the character chime in with hints to solve puzzle rooms, perhaps even allowing the player to automatically solve some rooms.
basically, by bringing certain characters with specific skills to different areas, you can change the way that entire encounter progresses, or just unlock additional content or loot that would otherwise not be available.
If someone in the party has the skill (Pick Locks) then you can attempt a lock picking mini-game to pick certain locks, or simply bypass locks that you would have otherwise had to obtain a key for. Perhaps in this case there can be different levels of this skill, like say, a more generalized (Theif) skill that can only open simple locks.
If someone in the party has the skill (Diplomat) then in dialog events, you have access to special options where the character in question speaks up, same thing with similar skills like (Bluff) or (Attractive) or (Trustworthy).
If someone in the party has the skill (Scholar) then you get different text prompts from examining bookcases and similar items, that give out clues to hidden content, boss weaknesses, as well as simply more bits of world lore. The (Scholar) Trait could also have the character chime in with hints to solve puzzle rooms, perhaps even allowing the player to automatically solve some rooms.
basically, by bringing certain characters with specific skills to different areas, you can change the way that entire encounter progresses, or just unlock additional content or loot that would otherwise not be available.
The Death Penalty
I like the idea of "Save Anywhere" combined with "limited saving", such as with the use of items. You can save anywhere outside of battle with a "memory dodad", but the availability of memory dodads is limited in some way, perhaps they are only found in chests, or they can be bought at stores, but there also exist "super memory dodads" that both save AND serve as a full-party restore that can only be found, not bought (perhaps one 'gimme' SMD per dungeon, with one or more 'extra' SMD's as exploration rewards for solving tough puzzles/fighting optional bosses, whatever).
I also really like the idea of "offer player shortcut NOW, in exchange for increased difficulty later" brought up by the SaGa 2 Odin fight. I imagine something along the lines of this;
Player dies, some NPC offers them the a 'second chance', the catch is 'the reaper will want his due'. From that point on, there is a small chance of the party being ambushed by Death/Hades/Hel/Grim Reaper/Shinigami/what have you as a random encounter boss fight.
If you die against Death, it's an instant Game Over, but if you WIN, you get a special reward, Death will drop rare, possibly even unique items, and your 'death counter' will be reset, if you don't die again from that point, there is no risk of encountering Death again, BUT, the cycle can be repeated, each time, Death becomes more powerful, perhaps eventually reaching a level where he becomes flat-out impossible. At that point, instead of being a random encounter, Death will show up at some scripted point late in the game, and one party member will sacrifice themselves PERMAMENTLY to save the rest of the party (unless perhaps you completed a separate optional side-quest that rewarded you with mcgufin D, an otherwise useless item used here to appease Death for the final time).
Maybe the entire Death sub-plot could even have a GOOD ending where Death JOINS as a party member if certain conditions are met? OR, like Dark Shadow in Dragon Quest, beating the optional superboss Death will unlock an extra ending where when you get to the 'true' final boss, Death shows up and just curbstomps them for you.
I also really like the idea of "offer player shortcut NOW, in exchange for increased difficulty later" brought up by the SaGa 2 Odin fight. I imagine something along the lines of this;
Player dies, some NPC offers them the a 'second chance', the catch is 'the reaper will want his due'. From that point on, there is a small chance of the party being ambushed by Death/Hades/Hel/Grim Reaper/Shinigami/what have you as a random encounter boss fight.
If you die against Death, it's an instant Game Over, but if you WIN, you get a special reward, Death will drop rare, possibly even unique items, and your 'death counter' will be reset, if you don't die again from that point, there is no risk of encountering Death again, BUT, the cycle can be repeated, each time, Death becomes more powerful, perhaps eventually reaching a level where he becomes flat-out impossible. At that point, instead of being a random encounter, Death will show up at some scripted point late in the game, and one party member will sacrifice themselves PERMAMENTLY to save the rest of the party (unless perhaps you completed a separate optional side-quest that rewarded you with mcgufin D, an otherwise useless item used here to appease Death for the final time).
Maybe the entire Death sub-plot could even have a GOOD ending where Death JOINS as a party member if certain conditions are met? OR, like Dark Shadow in Dragon Quest, beating the optional superboss Death will unlock an extra ending where when you get to the 'true' final boss, Death shows up and just curbstomps them for you.
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