Description

The submission period for the contest is now over, but the discussion has just begun!

Forum thread here.

The results are in:

Gold - Azalathemad
Silver - Aegix_Drakan
Bronze - NeverSilent

Congratulations to them and to everyone who took part in the contest!





This is a Community episode a contest and an experiment in game design prompted by Sviel's suggestion among the many thought-provoking comments to that article. If you don't take part in the contest for fun, fame and prizes, do it for SCIENCE.

The individual goal of the contest is to design a RPG battle system and showcase it in one or a few battles, while avoiding the usual clutter of mechanisms that is a staple of the genre, with the help of some guidelines given below.

The collective goal is to search together for the essential principles of the RPG battle - the skeleton of decisions that gives them their flavor and depth.

This is more challenging than a normal contest because it rewards creative and analytical thinking rather than just good craftsmanship. On the other hand, I believe the results could greatly improve the future games produced by the community - both in terms of unexplored strategic potential, and of streamlining battle design to make game-wide balancing (which is one of the worst problems in RPGs) considerably easier.



The three elements listed below are the fundamental aspects of RPG battling. (Explanatory figures and details hidden in spoiler tags.)

They are often obscured by overly complex systems and tons of genre conventions. The purpose of this contest to see what happens when you lay them bare. I am convinced that tons of strategic possibilities have been overlooked so far, simply because they were hard to perceive under the layers of fluff.


1) All RPG systems have a common ground: damage per turn, with the goal of killing before you are killed.

Of course, in this mock-up battle with only Attacks, 1) the hero dies first, and 2) the player is bored to tears. So we must add skills and stuff. (Randomness creates variation that you have no control over, so I won't mention it here).


2) All skills/spells/buffs/items are ways of dealing or receiving that damage faster or slower, more continuously or in bursts. They control the way that damage is concentrated or diluted over time, like pushing and pulling on a rubber band. (The basic, fully stretched state is "spamming attack" as above: not exciting but it gets you there eventually).



Problems:
- the picture above suggests that countless possibilities have never been used (there are many other ways to position and combine these arrows). The most frequent improvement is agility buffs or gaining/losing turns, i.e. ways to do more complicated actions by employing multiple skills at once. But there are lots of other ways to expand on it (see Tips & Inspirations below for ideas).

- usually, healing simply erases some of the enemy's actions in an irrecoverable way. You attack n times, I heal, you attack again, I heal => no net effect, boring. Hence the huge asymmetry in RPG battles: heroes can always heal, most enemies cannot, because there's nothing more infuriating than seeing the enemy heal and erase all your efforts.
It would be more interesting to rethink healing so that the effect of an action was never canceled, but for instance delayed, or spread over X turns, or converted into something else - still there in some form, ready to be reused by future skills.



3) MP, Limit Breaks, status conditions, multiple characters and classes are ways of allowing the player variable access to the skills over time. That's because strategy is not about the winning move, it's about progressively setting up the conditions which allow that move.



Problem: in RPGs you generally have extremely basic (un)locking conditions within the battle:
- "if I have a lot of MP, I can use all my powerful spells"
- "if this character dies/sleeps/is berserk, I lose access to their skills"
- (occasionally) "if I use a weak skill I will be able to use a stronger one next"

I think this is the aspect of RPGs that leaves the largest room for improvement by far. For a battle to have more strategy, every action you take should allow new moves and block other ones, potentially for the rest of the fight. What you can do at any given moment should be the logical product of your past actions and your enemy's, if possible in more evolved ways that a binary question like "out of mana?" or "silenced?".




This all boils down to a simple idea: if you want to encapsulate the feeling of combat, what you need is
- balance of power, represented by any gauge or number (and its evolution in time),
- seizing opportunities, represented by the diversity of available options and how you get or lose access to them.
Everything else is decorative, and there is much more freedom in how you could translate this into a system than what has ever been explored in any game so far.




- Rules with "must" are requirements.

- Rules with "should" can be transgressed at your own risk, if you think your interpretation is more clever than the original rule (feel free to contact me to talk about it).


1) Game:

- The game can be made using any software, but it must contain everything it requires to run on its own.

- You can reuse the Default Battle System in clever ways, use scripts, or make a custom system of any degree of sophistication. You won't be judged on the prettiness of the implementation, only on the strategic depth of the principles beneath.

- The entry can be a single or multiple battles long (but we will judge at most 4 or 5 battles, not 40). It should not contain any cutscene or exploration phase, unless they are entirely skippable.
=> You can make an entire game out of your system, just give the judges a way to play only the 1 to 5 battles you want to showcase.

- There can be as many or as few characters & enemies as you wish. The rules suggested here should make a 1-character 1-enemy duel as complex as a full-scale battle.

2) Skill design:

- The only gauge must be HP. You can work around this rule and make MP/AP/Limit Break equivalents using the rules below, but tons of extra points will be given to contestants who instead try to do something really new.

- There must be no randomness in the effect of an attack or skill. This contest is just an experiment in RPG tactics, so the player should be able to make elaborate plans without computing conditional probabilities in their head.

- Skills should be designed to reflect principle 2) in the Rationale section above as clearly as possible
i.e. skills are ways to change the repartition of damage over time. The effect of any skill in those terms should be very clear, to let players compare skills and conceive strategies more easily. For instance, instead of directly dealing damage, skills could change the number of times a character attacks in a turn (it's easier to compare "1 attack" with "3 attacks" than to have to chose between spells that inflict 70HP on one enemy or 10HP/turn for 4 turns on 2 enemies).


- For more points, every skill should bring something new to the table. No skill should be "the same but stronger". Each skill should provide a different way of manipulating the repartition of damage over time, that cannot be produced by using other skills.

3) Skill unlocking:

- There must be rules to determine when you can or cannot use a given skill. We are trying here not to default to a simple gauge like MP: expending mana/drinking ethers is a very binary way of implementing actions that (un)lock other actions. Ideally, every action could have:
* multiple effects in unlocking other actions (e.g. a feint opens up various attacks)
* multiple conditions for its own unlocking (e.g. an attack requires the right posture, the right distance, and the right weakness in the enemy's defense)
* multiple ways to fulfill these conditions

- As much as possible, the rules for locking/unlocking should not be special cases (e.g. Fire Sword unlocks Mega-Smash), but more general logical principles. Even better if they apply similarly to the enemies' skills!

- As much as possible, locking/unlocking should be long lasting, i.e. not only dependent on the current state of the characters, but also on past actions both by them and by their enemies.

Counter-example to these 3 points: Being "out of mana" is a locking effect that
- depends only on your current state (no matter how you reached it or what the enemy has been doing)
- affects all skills at the same time
- has no real trade-off: more mana always equals more good
- and can be canceled with a single action (drinking an Ether).
By contrast, in a typical strategy game, every time you move a piece, you are closing off some possibilities and opening new ones by combination with the positions of all other pieces, so every move along the way can play some role in your victory.


- You are free to invent the detail of these locking rules, but more points will be given if they are simple and intuitive.
Example: in board games, it's simple geometry that creates these rules (a piece/unit contributes to your tactics by blocking a line of sight, or flanking an enemy...). Here you could use some sort of spatial logic as well, or all sorts of different principles (see Tips & Inspirations below for examples).


- If you have multiple battles, there can be permanent effects transferred from one battle to the next.
i.e. "items" are skills following all the rules above, except their locking/unlocking effects are not limited to one battle (e.g. a consumable item simply locks itself permanently once used, but there could be more elaborate patterns).




General tips and suggestions:

- Anyone who has trouble with the rules can ask questions in a comment or PM. I can help with things such as checking that skills are not reducible to one another, if you want to do it the mathy way.

- "one goal=one action" is the antithesis of strategy. Every action should serve multiple goals and every goal require multiple actions. Real creativity appears when you start finding ways to control the breadth of actions at your and your enemy's disposal, trapping them into predictable moves while extending your own possibilities.

- you can draw some inspiration from CCGs like Magic the Gathering. They are in fact very close to the concepts exposed here for RPG battles: the "skill unlocking" revolves partly around drawing the cards from your deck, with special effects such as reshuffling the deck or drawing more often. Notice that most CCGs contain effects that allow to bring back cards that have already been used/discarded, which is a way of making even past actions relevant to your current tactical options.

- It could be great to have a visual aid for damage repartition/displacement over turns (perhaps a graph of damage over time, in the spirit of what I did in the Rationale section) or some other way to make the effect of any skill perfectly clear and analyzable by the player.

- A suggestion: skills could displace either the same quantity of damage (e.g. 1HP if you're going the small-numbers route), or all the damage dealt in the target turn(s) (including contributions from other skills). This will make elaborate tactics much easier to figure than having a lot of different quantities or percentages. The less math the player needs to do, the more they can make clever plans.

- How much damage is moved around by a skill should not depend on some intrinsic property of the character or the enemy (e.g. elemental weakness). We want strategies to be effective because of what the enemies have done, not because of what they are (i.e. strategy rather than a puzzle that can be solved once and for all). What will differentiate them is their inventory of skills and how they use them.

- You are allowed to "disguise" to some extent the mechanical aspects detailed above to make the game more appealing or closer in appearance to traditional RPGs, as long as damage-moving and locking rules are clearly stated in-game or in a design document included with the game.

Don't go too fancy though: the goal is to expose the skeleton of RPG battles, not bury it under fluff.


Some random starting ideas:

* Why not boil it down to a single HP bar and have each group try to push it in a different direction? (somewhat like Last Word)

* What if a single attack could kill, and the whole battle is a game of counters and feints to try to get that attack in before the enemy does? (Bushido Blade style)

* What if the "rubber band" of damage is elastic, and tends to come back to its natural state over time (so that both bursts of damage and healing progressively come undone)

* Why not use many more status conditions than usual, each one affecting some fraction of the skills (like Silence prevents Magic, but less generic), or even interacting with each other.

* For instance, why not call status conditions "stances" and use concepts from martial arts or fencing to create the skill unlocking logic? (depending on your distance, your weapon, your stance and the enemy's, you can use ground fighting, feints, throws, locks and so on)

* What if there were more categories than just allies and enemies with which to interact through the skills? (for instance neutral resources in the environment)

* For a simple extension of the DBS, you could have a number of different characters with a system for switching them in battle, then group skills that should be locked or unlocked together by giving them to the same character (or make them combos requiring multiple characters), then add conditions to access/summon that character.

* A limited component of TRPG-like motion is not forbidden (think The Reconstruction), although I'd like to see contestants tread newer ground as well.

* For multiple battles, how about having enemies who have the same brute force as you, but are programmed to have an increasingly broad range of tactical possibilities? Every encounter would actually serve the overall gameplay by teaching you how to deal with them in more and more elaborate settings, instead of being its own beast that loses all purpose once mastered.



Recommendations given in the comments section:
An episode of Retronauts literally just came out that discusses RPG battle systems.

http://www.retronauts.com/?p=846.





Anyone who wants to help me judge can let me know here or by PM, I will require their help depending on how many submissions we get. I will ask the judges to read this conversation if they haven't already, so as to have an idea of what we are looking for here.

Tentative criteria for judging:


Originality (20pts): How much does the system contribute to pushing the boundaries of the genre?

Example: Can you find ways to expand on the JRPG system that are not just adding one more gauge, or one more way to get a stat bonus?

Elegance (25pts): Is the system using as few ingredients as possible to achieve its goals in a precise way?

Example: Is each skill truly different from the others? Have you found a simpler way to achieve what usually requires 3 gauges, 10 stats and 100 different items?

Clarity (20pts): How well can the player understand the system, its strategic stakes, and the reason their actions succeed or fail?

Example: Are the effects of each action clearly labeled? Does the system avoid having the player do mental calculus to evaluate the result of their actions? Is the skill unlocking logic consistent and predictable?

Depth (25pts): How much does the system allow and reward elaborate plans, creativity and tactical intuition?

Example: Can we predict how our actions will guide the enemies' reactions, allowing us to manipulate them? Is the game more than pure HP/MP/Item attrition?

Bonus (10pts): Anything a judge finds especially worthy of praise.




I don't expect that making the game will take more than a couple of days at most; however for the sake of all people with a busy schedule, the contest will run from July 27 to August 27 23:59 EST. (however I won't mind if people get the time zone wrong)




The top 3 contestants will get to choose one of the following prizes:

(x1) Any game under 20 USD on Steam or the Humble store, because I might as well make it rain, FOR SCIENCE.

(x3) A (reasonable) drawing by yours truly. Preferably characters (fanart or original, any style), possibly simple environment shots or short multipanel gag in sketchy style. You can do whatever you want with it, use it as title screen or make a tattoo or sell it on eBay.

(x1) A cameo in my future game (hey, that works for Kickstarters. NB: I'm not really expecting anyone to pick this, but I'll give details if a winner is actually interested.)

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If Karin finds out, I'm screwed.
Bludgeon of Inspiration
I'm below those above me.
Why did the statement game ended?
All statements below and above this one just make this one look better. :D
Complexity =/= Strategy
Brotherhood of Evil Statements
If soulkeeper finds out, I'm confused.
Gourdy might not be lazy?
The below statement is false
This statement may have a disclaimer.
The above statement is true if this statement is false.
The above statement broke the chain.
Life is Turn-Based.
Simply complicated ;_;
Fighting to the death with Seiromem!
Oh yes, there will be blood...
If kentona or soulkeeper finds out, I'd be all "whatever."
Kentona still owes me a date.
I'll release my limit break on all of you!
You're fighting with borrowed power.
LET'S. DO. THIS???
Be Like Water My Friend
At least I'll get something out of this summer.
Ayane Fanclub
THESE ARE COMBATS THAT MATTER!
+10 to all enemy stats.
TungerManU
Can't hardly Science
Im not crazy... My mother had me tested!
PetzlaProductions

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I'm no good at stuff like this, but it's intriguing enough. I'm no maths boffin, that's for sure.

EDIT: Ah, what the heck. I'll probably do it. I'll see how much I can squeeze out of Yanfly's Battle Engine Melody ( Press Turn Version ).
Welcome on board to everyone who's joined the contest! I promise no math is required unless you want to ;)

unity> Okay this point about healing seems to be really unclear, so I've updated my wording (may require refreshing the page). I've never said that healing is forbidden or the idea of healing is absolutely bad, I'm only unconvinced by the part where some of your (or your enemy's) previous effort vanishes into thin air and is totally unrecoverable; I'm perfectly fine with people rethinking healing to make it tactically relevant, and I have actually suggested a couple of ways to do so.

My hypothesis is that anything that flat-out cancels out the effect of past actions (instead of delaying it or converting it into something else that can still play a role in the future) will have rather terrible consequences on tactical depth, leading to the simple game of attrition that Kyla described. There are basic mathematical reasons to believe that, and we can discuss them if you're interested. But this is not a dogma, we're here to learn and if your game proves me wrong I will be glad to have corrected my views!


karins_soulkeeper> I would prefer no encryption since it might help us judges play around with the system more easily. I won't make it mandatory though, in case you are using custom resources or so and are afraid of them being stolen. Perhaps a public encrypted version, and a private non-encrypted one sent only to the judges would be a decent compromise.
Feel free to ask anywhere for technical help.


Marrend> I agree with Kyla, it would be cool if you could beef up the system in terms of tactical possibilities, i.e. how your choices right now affect your choices in the future. Instead of skill unlocking, you could perhaps keep the same basic skills but have "effect unlocking", i.e. what they do depends on more than just what the enemy is doing right now. (Imagine the effect of having your adversary defend again and again, or charge like a berserker many times in a row; there should be incremental aspects to it).
This is a greeeatttt event! With great timing too!

I have a few game ideas circulating in my head, and I've been thinking about my RPG one. I want to make something really different. So upon reading the contest description I was like: "This reads my mind and more!". Super excited to get started!

Careful Seiromem! We're facing off and at no point will I show you mercy! ;P
Seiromem
I would have more makerscore If I did things.
6104
Mercy is for the weak, my hilarity will outshine your so called "Ideas" that have an unnatural ability to circle one's head.
Oh we are so gonna turn this experimental, thought-provoking event into a blood-soaked competition my friend.
Please do. It's not really experimental if there's no blood (and post-industrial noisecore) involved, anyway.
I have suicidal wishes today,
So, yeah, I guess I'll join...
Marrend
Guardian of the Description Thread
20536
Incremental aspects? Hrm. Well, with the dueling system of Suikoden III, there is an "advantage" system. Successive "correct" responses give your actions more power/priority, and makes mistakes more tolerable, whereas successive "incorrect" actions give your actions less power/priority, and make mistakes potentially lethal. For example, if you did an ATTACK against a CRITICAL, but a reasonable about of ADVANTAGE, you might get in that ATTACK without your opponent doing the CRITICAL, but, the ADVANTAGE bar would move toward the opponent's side. The next action, if it was the same result, the bar would still move toward the opponent's side, but you'd feel some pain. Maybe not as much if the ADVANTAGE was more neutral, or for the opponent, but, that's the general idea.

I highly doubt I can (or want to) mess with priority, but, I have few qualms about messing with how powerful actions are.

Somewhat related anecdote:

Darigaaz, I was absolutely terrible at reading Sasarai in Luc's chapter of Suikoden 3. The guy just seems to be calm whatever situation he seems to be in.


Yes, I'm joining to the bloodfest!

By the way, I have a pair of questions:

- If a custom battle system can be used, does that mean that scripts can also be used?

- I don't understand well how skills and items must be implemented in the game. If there must be only a HP bar, how do you stop your character for using his most powerful skill with no restrictions? There can be a shop in the game? Do I have to implement an unconventional way of learning skills?

Could someone explain this to me, because I'm quite confused. Thanks.
You can use whatever suits you.

And that's where point three "locking/unlocking skills" comes into play. You can't use every skill at any time. There need to be conditions met.
Say, you need to throw your enemy off guard before you can charge at him with a very strong attack. What these conditions are is up to you.

Unconventional skill-learning systems are optional. They're the extra dip of awesomeness, but don't have to be there.

Not sure about the shop, but I'd assume it's possible. Just as adjusting your party if necessary. It'd be good to set some rules for items if possible. Simple potions or so would be out, but some unique or reusable items would certainly be possible.
Gotta wait for clarification there, thanks for bringing it up!
author=Ilan14
If there must be only a HP bar, how do you stop your character for using his most powerful skill with no restrictions? There can be a shop in the game? Do I have to implement an unconventional way of learning skills?

In addition to Kyla's explanations, I would say the idea here is to avoid having a most powerful skill. Skills should be ways of doing different things, not the same thing but stronger.

As for what decides when you can use a skill, you're free to choose - you could decide that some skills become available only based on certain status conditions, or certain past actions by the player or by the enemy, or more elaborate ideas. It's like learning (or forgetting) skills during the battle, if you wish, or you could also take inspirations from deck-based games such as Magic the Gathering, where the actions you can do vary in time because of what you have in your hand.

You can even be devious and give some skills a HP cost, in effect reducing HP and MP to the same gauge (but that's been done before by Deltree and others so I'd prefer something new).

The only difference between items and skills is that item consumption is permanent between battles. If you have only one battle or a few, you could forget about items completely and not worry about how to implement them. Since there's no long-term management of gold here, buying items/equipment is not really different from choosing between different characters who already have the corresponding skills and stats.


Marrend> That's a good way to start. It remains quite one-dimensional (i.e. more of the same) but you can improve on that concept. Alternatively, instead of having the enemy pick their action at random and warn the player about it (which means that the only challenge in the battle is about reading message boxes correctly), you could give them rules for which action they pick depending on past history, so that the player knows that defending too much will cause the enemy to switch to attack, and so on. Thus there would be trade-offs: if I defend now, I don't lose HP, but I become more predictable and the enemy can beat me.
author=Hasvers
author=Ilan14
If there must be only a HP bar, how do you stop your character for using his most powerful skill with no restrictions? There can be a shop in the game? Do I have to implement an unconventional way of learning skills?
As for what decides when you can use a skill, you're free to choose - you could decide that some skills become available only based on certain status conditions, or certain past actions by the player or by the enemy, or more elaborate ideas. It's like learning (or forgetting) skills during the battle, if you wish, or you could also take inspirations from deck-based games such as Magic the Gathering, where the actions you can do vary in time because of what you have in your hand.


So, you mean that I could make, for example, make a skill trigger a common event to check an enemy status after being used and then lock and unlock skills depending if that enemy has said status? Something like that?
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12896
This might be a fun little experiment for me. I'm joining.
author=Ilan14
So, you mean that I could make, for example, make a skill trigger a common event to check an enemy status after being used and then lock and unlock skills depending if that enemy has said status? Something like that?

Yep, I didn't give implementation details because I don't know what version of RM and what scripts (if any) you are using. Feel free to ask for suggestions on the technical forum - I could easily answer questions about scripting but I haven't done event-based systems in recent RMs (XP and later) so I'm not sure what's the best way to go these days.
Thanks! That's all I needed to know! By the way, I'm going to use VXAce, but I didn't even started the game yet. :|

Now, I have doubts about the prizes:

- The reasonable drawing, how is that about? You draw something so that I can use in my game or it's only some kind of gift or souvenir?

- About the game cameo, what is your next game and in which engine will be made?
I disagree with "The only gauge must be HP" because it limits creativity.
It should be a "should".
For instance, having low MP could enable new skills and boost stats, allowing the player to decide which of the two situations, being able to cast magic or having stronger stats and new skills, is optimal in the moment.
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11505
Is sexual healing allowed
author=Avee
I disagree with "The only gauge must be HP" because it limits creativity.
Well we've suggested quite a few ways to play around that rule already, but I'm sure you'll invent even better ways to deal with skills. Having skills that unlock at low MP is equivalent to having skills that unlock when others are locked; by not limiting this to MP you can have more than simply one dimension (the high ones vs low ones). That's just one example of why I think that doing away with MP forces you to be more creative, in the end.

As for passive stat bonus, you could do away with stats as well since they are themselves modifiers on skills; there's no difference between doing something that lands you an attack bonus and using a skill that is also an attack buff.

author=CashmereCat
Is sexual healing allowed
It is in fact mandatory. This contest is now officially Marvin Gaye-themed.
A single stat might act as several modifiers, positively and negatively. High STR lets you deal more overall damage but it also lets you take more when the Martial Artists enemy uses your own STR to counter attack.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I felt like the rules were limiting and I just want to make sure they may not be interpreted that way. Maybe just change that line about "must" and "should" rules.
Now, I have doubts about the prizes:

- The reasonable drawing, how is that about? You draw something so that I can use in my game or it's only some kind of gift or souvenir?

- About the game cameo, what is your next game and in which engine will be made?
For the drawing, you can do whatever you want with it, use it as a promotional art for your game if you wish. The "reasonable" part is that I'm not inclined to do a full reproduction of the Sistine Chapel, but a character bust with a background, a full character without background, or a simple environment drawing are within my capabilities. I'll put some example of my serious work in my locker within a couple of days.

For the cameo, honestly I put it in there as a joke, not expecting that anyone would choose it. If one of the winners is actually interested in it (for themselves or one of their characters), I will give them details about the game, which is yet unannounced and on my homemade engine.