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BATTLING IN GAMES, BUT.. WHY?
Posts
Craze
View playlists
Closesbester
Also, Craze is extra angry/ranty as of late. Wuzzup?
i don't even know who you are
also i believe in unmitigated feedback, that is what i give and it is something i feel this place sorely needs; you have other options if you dislike it
Jparker1984
2008
First off, I know I will get heat for this, but damn Craze. Stop being such a dick all the time, its not cute. You remind me of a young child that cries for attention. It seems like you post rude stuff like that just to try to piss people off. Really dude, there is a big difference in dis agreeing, criticism and other stuff like that. To what you do, really grow up. I can 100% promise you that there are a lot of others that will agree. I'm not saying you don't know your shit, just act like an adult.
author=flowerthief
It's a strain to picture any of the protagonists of the GTA series helping old ladies across the street, but maybe that's because the game you envision hasn't been made yet!
... ... ...
I like the idea of long single battles instead of frequent strings of short battles. You just have to figure out what to do for a leveling system. Short frequent battles do facilitate grinding so it's easy to see why they're popular. If battles become optional, you essentially have the same issue to address. How much is the player expected/required to level up?
I laughed a lot at the idea of helping old ladies across the street, and.. I'm sure with enough backstory, that might actually make a really awesome game. Half the fun of GTA2 was pretending to be a taxi driver in order to get cash. But I meant something more along the lines of maybe doing some nicer missions, like earning the cars honestly.
Longer single battles does sound a lot nicer, but I see what you mean about the torrent of smaller grind-battles being expected. They are a bit fun in a way, just not when you've been doing them forever. Those battles are kinda necessary so people can choose to level if they want to, but at the same time they can get very boring even if you're not grinding.
author=Crystalgate
And obviously, in all those fights, a single person was involved who kept winning all those fights against people who would attack him despite the fact that they had a snowball's chance in hell to win.
... ... ...
Having a modern setting doesn't change that. Even though it's a modern setting, it's still not a real life setting. A set of rules, which doesn't exist in real life, are introduced and those rules makes the fighting (hopefully) make sense within the game. In Caz's case however, he asked himself "Okay, where can fighting come into that?" which means that no such rules exist within that setting yet. With a sword and sorcery medieval setting, these kinds of rules are introduced by default. With a modern setting that resembles real life a lot, this is not the case.
There could be some weird, underground children's fighting club.. urmmm.. or not.. ^^
I guess I'm not asking where fighting can fit in, but more where gameplay fits in. Fighting would be nice because it's probably the most expected in an RPG, but other forms of entertainment would be cool.
Making a game that's very realistic can be difficult, but I'd like to attempt that. I guess that's where I was getting confused and argh-ing a lot because I couldn't cram violence into everyday life without making a shoddy spinoff game or some kind of "Dead Rising" rip-off.
author=Jparker1984
First off, I know I will get heat for this, but damn Craze. Stop being such a dick all the time, its not cute. You remind me of a young child that cries for attention. It seems like you post rude stuff like that just to try to piss people off. Really dude, there is a big difference in dis agreeing, criticism and other stuff like that. To what you do, really grow up. I can 100% promise you that there are a lot of others that will agree. I'm not saying you don't know your shit, just act like an adult.
I mainly like to pretend to ignore the pointless flaming and general disregard of the opinions of others and look straight to his criticism. While I agree that fluffy comments about how lovely everything is won't get me anywhere, I'm more inclined to listen to someone who's also shown me where I'm going wrong in a harsher way. Just maybe not that harsh. Maybe like, "you're jumping too far into this without thinking and should probably consider how other developers get around the entertainment side of their product" instead of "YOU ARE STUPID, GO PLAY MORE GAMES YOU STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Also, here is a reasonable idea which answers your question. BUT I HATE YOU." It makes me sad. D: It's a real shame, because I think his criticisms and ideas are otherwise actually pretty helpful. *shrug* Maybe he's having a bad week.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I maintain that you can just rename the commands and terms in a normal RPG battle system and make some minor adjustments, and suddenly the gameplay will be exactly the same as before but it will be a representation of something else instead of combat.
Blitzball is a perfect example. You've played FF10, right? Blitzball, or Drownball as I like to call it, is a minigame in FF10; a sport, basically identical to soccer except played underwater. Except you don't play it like FIFA 2012. Instead, all the players have stats for dribbling, passing, blocking, shooting, goalieing. They gain experience as they play in game, and can learn special abilities through their actions and the actions of their teammates. The special abilities work just like any other RPG attacks - they shoot for the goal with a +20% hit chance, or they pass the ball and inflict Dribbling Down to anyone who intercepts it, or whatever.
You could do the same thing for, say, used car sales. Make a used car sales system that's functionally identical to an RPG battle system, where you have to equip your showroom with cars to sell, and you have different salesmen who have different stats. Maybe they start with simple skills like Walk Away and Flatter Customer's Taste, and can learn more effective ones that cost MP or have tradeoffs, like Feign Shop Closing and Threaten Customer's Family. Maybe they can wear shirts and neckties that increase their stats, and join together for dual techs if they are both available.
Blitzball is a perfect example. You've played FF10, right? Blitzball, or Drownball as I like to call it, is a minigame in FF10; a sport, basically identical to soccer except played underwater. Except you don't play it like FIFA 2012. Instead, all the players have stats for dribbling, passing, blocking, shooting, goalieing. They gain experience as they play in game, and can learn special abilities through their actions and the actions of their teammates. The special abilities work just like any other RPG attacks - they shoot for the goal with a +20% hit chance, or they pass the ball and inflict Dribbling Down to anyone who intercepts it, or whatever.
You could do the same thing for, say, used car sales. Make a used car sales system that's functionally identical to an RPG battle system, where you have to equip your showroom with cars to sell, and you have different salesmen who have different stats. Maybe they start with simple skills like Walk Away and Flatter Customer's Taste, and can learn more effective ones that cost MP or have tradeoffs, like Feign Shop Closing and Threaten Customer's Family. Maybe they can wear shirts and neckties that increase their stats, and join together for dual techs if they are both available.
... I'm not sure what to think of that. XD I think that Blitzball is a bit more complex than just renaming the battle commands due to the players changing places on the map/actually shooting for the goal/stuff like that. I didn't think of it that way, actually. While FFX does have battles, it also has a sport which is even more fun than the game itself. A bit like the card games from 8 and 9. Not sure if my RPG Maker skills are up to that kind of thing without lotsa scripts. Guess it's time to learn RGSS!
Used car sale "battles" is probably the best idea I've heard so far, possibly because it's such a hilarious concept.. while also seeming quite fun. It's making me think of 'Sims 2 - Open for Business' in a way. You had to talk to each customer to sell an item. You could use a 'basic sale' tactic, 'hard sale', offering things at bargain price, etc. and get new skills as you got better at selling. The skills would fill or decrease the customer's interest bar depending on how they reacted to it. Once it was full, they usually agreed to buy the item and you made your money.
Alternatively, there could be a 'Recettear' style system (again, not sure how confident I am in my RPG Maker skills..) where you send an adventurer to get your goods from a dungeon, but the majority of gameplay takes place in your shop where you arrange your items on the display cases and wait for people to come in. They then haggle with you dependent on current economic climate and what's popular. That'd be the non-battle-esque way, at least.
Used car sale "battles" is probably the best idea I've heard so far, possibly because it's such a hilarious concept.. while also seeming quite fun. It's making me think of 'Sims 2 - Open for Business' in a way. You had to talk to each customer to sell an item. You could use a 'basic sale' tactic, 'hard sale', offering things at bargain price, etc. and get new skills as you got better at selling. The skills would fill or decrease the customer's interest bar depending on how they reacted to it. Once it was full, they usually agreed to buy the item and you made your money.
Alternatively, there could be a 'Recettear' style system (again, not sure how confident I am in my RPG Maker skills..) where you send an adventurer to get your goods from a dungeon, but the majority of gameplay takes place in your shop where you arrange your items on the display cases and wait for people to come in. They then haggle with you dependent on current economic climate and what's popular. That'd be the non-battle-esque way, at least.
Killer Wolf
1235
There was a racing rpg for the playstation called Racing Lagoon. I played an emulated version, since it never saw a release in my country. There were set races to advance the plot, but you could find "random encounters" in the form of cars you could race against on the city map. They would flash their lights, and if you flashed back, it cut to a race map. You can select parts to take as your prize when you beat them, allowing you to level up your cars. You can equip them differently and even use different models.
I don't speak the language the game is in, and usually I'm not even that big on driving games, but I really enjoyed playing it. The disconnect for me, at least once I started driving in real life, is that no game really captures the feel of driving at speed and cornering,drifting, etc. Racing Lagoon makes up for this with the leveling up system. I know it is an abstraction of driving, the same way typical rpg battles are abstractions of combat.
I went from thinking it was an interesting little curiosity I'd like to try just for the hell of it, to finding myself grinding for a better ECU and some new brakes so I could take down that one damn racer who kept beating me and taking my engine mods.
If I could cobble together compelling driving mechanics with the maker I'm most comfortable with, I'd certainly entertain taking up a street racing rpg project.
I don't speak the language the game is in, and usually I'm not even that big on driving games, but I really enjoyed playing it. The disconnect for me, at least once I started driving in real life, is that no game really captures the feel of driving at speed and cornering,drifting, etc. Racing Lagoon makes up for this with the leveling up system. I know it is an abstraction of driving, the same way typical rpg battles are abstractions of combat.
I went from thinking it was an interesting little curiosity I'd like to try just for the hell of it, to finding myself grinding for a better ECU and some new brakes so I could take down that one damn racer who kept beating me and taking my engine mods.
If I could cobble together compelling driving mechanics with the maker I'm most comfortable with, I'd certainly entertain taking up a street racing rpg project.
@Killer Wolf: That game sounds awesome! Like Pokemon with cars..
I love games where you've got a single character or car or something that gains power ups and equipment as you fight. It was possibly the best part of Sonic Battle, where you had a robot that gained moves as you fought other people (and by people, I mean weirdly coloured anthropomorphs), and you could equip the moves to it for use in future fights.
@DBAce9Aura: That video was great, and pretty much exactly one of the things I was looking for. I'm definitely getting closer to my target on deciding upon a game mechanic. Thanks for the incredibly useful vid!
I love games where you've got a single character or car or something that gains power ups and equipment as you fight. It was possibly the best part of Sonic Battle, where you had a robot that gained moves as you fought other people (and by people, I mean weirdly coloured anthropomorphs), and you could equip the moves to it for use in future fights.
@DBAce9Aura: That video was great, and pretty much exactly one of the things I was looking for. I'm definitely getting closer to my target on deciding upon a game mechanic. Thanks for the incredibly useful vid!
My friend and I were talking yesterday about a non-standard DnD campaign written entirely around diplomacy and international affairs. You had to create peace treaties between kingdoms via your words whether you tried to win people over using your reputation, history of the kingdom, or lies!
Of course, randomness was involved (it is DnD) but the only fighting that took place were things such as honor duels: for example, one kingdom was led by a warlord who might challenge you to a duel to settle a dispute; you would have to discuss and settle on a set of rules for the duel, and the duel would not only affect your dispute but your social reputation (are you a dirty fighter, did your opponent shame you in some way) that would affect many other situations and add bonuses/negatives to your later rolls.
It sounds fantastic.
Of course, randomness was involved (it is DnD) but the only fighting that took place were things such as honor duels: for example, one kingdom was led by a warlord who might challenge you to a duel to settle a dispute; you would have to discuss and settle on a set of rules for the duel, and the duel would not only affect your dispute but your social reputation (are you a dirty fighter, did your opponent shame you in some way) that would affect many other situations and add bonuses/negatives to your later rolls.
It sounds fantastic.
Honestly i thought the most interesting thing in this entire conversation so far was the bit where monster encounters often affected ordinary things. like farming. Maybe your "fights" are training duels or bouts; maybe you've disrupted an area and find yourself surrounded by hostile creatures you can't reason with; maybe both you and the monsters are hungry and whoever loses ends up as lunch.
Avee
5794
author=Killer Wolf
If I could cobble together compelling driving mechanics with the maker I'm most comfortable with, I'd certainly entertain taking up a street racing rpg project.
How funny. I was working on this a few weeks ago on 2k3.
In adventure games, monsters are often a form of obstacles. In an RPG they could be part of a fetch quest or related to some kind of goal you need to accomplish. Maybe the Demon Lord's son has offered to cook Dad birthday dinner, and the recipe calls for the flesh of twenty fair maidens and carrots and fresh rosemary, all of which he's out of, so he has to go and slay bodyguards to get to the maidens and cross the swamp full of snakes to get the rosemary.
The battle versus you and your lunch is an interesting one. Like a farming simulator or something, but every so often a monster or two come to hassle your crops/animals/you for food. They'd have to be pretty difficult battles to fully show how much of a struggle it is to keep your stuff safe from them. I guess you'd either maybe die if you lost ('cause you got eated), or have a significant portion of crops/animals taken by them as punishment for sucking. That sounds like quite a nice idea, actually! It'd give you some reason to actually care about the crops you plant instead of wake up, hoe, plant, water, sleep, water, sleep, water.. urrghhhhh..
As for your RPG idea with the eating of maidens and carrots, I lol'd but still considered it quite seriously. I mean, wanting to eat is a good reason to kill other things/people but.. can't he eat something else? Why does he hunger for flesh? Isn't he worried about cannibalism causing spongiform encephalopathy and other such craziness? Or maybe he's already under their hold, and that's why he craves more flesh? XD It's just little nitpicking reasonings behind why you're ever fighting that I like. I hate when you start off in an RPG and are told to 'save the princess' or whatever, so you immediately GRAB YOUR SWORD and KILL EVERY FLUFFY CREATURE IN THE FOREST on your way to get her. 'cause you're a lovely guy and chicks dig the fresh blood of innocent puppies. <3
Tales of the Abyss is probably my favourite game for storyline and explanations. The main character, Luke, is dumped back at his house when he's a kid without any memories, so his parents keep him locked up inside for seven years to protect him. Point being, when he gets out to do his quest for various reasons, he doesn't know what the eff is going on when monsters show up and he honestly despises the thought of killing another person. I think it was quite rushed in-game, but it'd have to be. It'd be useless if your main character couldn't attack anything in that game, but that's not to say it wouldn't in others (eg. maybe your hero is running a small army patrol (your party) and decides what they do, but never gets involved because he doesn't want to get his hands dirty). I get the feeling I've digressed a lot..
As for your RPG idea with the eating of maidens and carrots, I lol'd but still considered it quite seriously. I mean, wanting to eat is a good reason to kill other things/people but.. can't he eat something else? Why does he hunger for flesh? Isn't he worried about cannibalism causing spongiform encephalopathy and other such craziness? Or maybe he's already under their hold, and that's why he craves more flesh? XD It's just little nitpicking reasonings behind why you're ever fighting that I like. I hate when you start off in an RPG and are told to 'save the princess' or whatever, so you immediately GRAB YOUR SWORD and KILL EVERY FLUFFY CREATURE IN THE FOREST on your way to get her. 'cause you're a lovely guy and chicks dig the fresh blood of innocent puppies. <3
Tales of the Abyss is probably my favourite game for storyline and explanations. The main character, Luke, is dumped back at his house when he's a kid without any memories, so his parents keep him locked up inside for seven years to protect him. Point being, when he gets out to do his quest for various reasons, he doesn't know what the eff is going on when monsters show up and he honestly despises the thought of killing another person. I think it was quite rushed in-game, but it'd have to be. It'd be useless if your main character couldn't attack anything in that game, but that's not to say it wouldn't in others (eg. maybe your hero is running a small army patrol (your party) and decides what they do, but never gets involved because he doesn't want to get his hands dirty). I get the feeling I've digressed a lot..
Caz, if you're interested in pacifistic leads that are way better than a Tales game cut-out, you should probably play Exit Fate.
http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10
http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10
prexus
309
author=slashphoenix
My friend and I were talking yesterday about a non-standard DnD campaign written entirely around diplomacy and international affairs. You had to create peace treaties between kingdoms via your words whether you tried to win people over using your reputation, history of the kingdom, or lies!
Of course, randomness was involved (it is DnD) but the only fighting that took place were things such as honor duels: for example, one kingdom was led by a warlord who might challenge you to a duel to settle a dispute; you would have to discuss and settle on a set of rules for the duel, and the duel would not only affect your dispute but your social reputation (are you a dirty fighter, did your opponent shame you in some way) that would affect many other situations and add bonuses/negatives to your later rolls.
It sounds fantastic.
That sounds fucking boring as hell. Sorry, but if I wanted to sit around a table and discuss politics and political intrigue, I would talk about the real world. Like, holy crap does that ever sound boring. Have you ever watched C-SPAN? This D&D campaign sounds like C-SPAN the Game.
author=Craze
Caz, if you're interested in pacifistic leads that are way better than a Tales game cut-out, you should probably play Exit Fate.
http://site.scfworks.com/?page_id=10
Ooh, my interest is certainly piqued! That game looks hella sexy and tactic-a-rific, so will definitely give that a try. I really do like the idea of a pacifist for a main character or party member, but have yet to find a game that throws it in there without making battles (or a lack thereof) boring as hell. I'm hoping Exit Fate will prove to be a lot more interesting and playable.
Avee
5794
author=prexusauthor=slashphoenixThat sounds fucking boring as hell. Sorry, but if I wanted to sit around a table and discuss politics and political intrigue, I would talk about the real world. Like, holy crap does that ever sound boring. Have you ever watched C-SPAN? This D&D campaign sounds like C-SPAN the Game.
My friend and I were talking yesterday about a non-standard DnD campaign written entirely around diplomacy and international affairs. You had to create peace treaties between kingdoms via your words whether you tried to win people over using your reputation, history of the kingdom, or lies!
Of course, randomness was involved (it is DnD) but the only fighting that took place were things such as honor duels: for example, one kingdom was led by a warlord who might challenge you to a duel to settle a dispute; you would have to discuss and settle on a set of rules for the duel, and the duel would not only affect your dispute but your social reputation (are you a dirty fighter, did your opponent shame you in some way) that would affect many other situations and add bonuses/negatives to your later rolls.
It sounds fantastic.
That could actually be fun if executed well.
Take Ace Attorney for example.
Just know that Daniel's idea of "pacifism" is what makes it so interesting; he fights, but... yeah. Just play the game. It's incredible. Exit Fate and SCF's other RPG, Last Scenario, make me wish I could erase them from my brain so that I could relive them again.
Made cup of tea, sat down to play Exit Fate, get a little way in to introductions and stuff aaaaanddd.. game decides to crash.
But I loooove what I see so far, the character development is huge piles of awesome! I find it difficult to believe it was made in RPG Maker, too..
But I loooove what I see so far, the character development is huge piles of awesome! I find it difficult to believe it was made in RPG Maker, too..
author=Avee
That could actually be fun if executed well.
Take Ace Attorney for example.
Haha, exactly. A diplomatic campaign would be awesome if you're one small group trying convince a king not to murder your family or invade your country or something. The fighting that takes place in a campaign like that means a lot more than "oops, we ran into some ogres", as well.
