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GOING BACK TO OLD SCHOOL LENGTH RPGS
Posts
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Jparker1984
2008
Jparker1984
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CloseI love a lot of the modern RPGs, but what I have noticed is that they are not quite as long as they used to be. I don't enjoy spending a big chunk of money on a game (not just RPGs) only to beat it in a few days, that pisses me off. Why can't they make em like they used to. Now, I know there are still some games that come out and last a good while, just not at the rate in the old school days.
Now, I direct some attention to the RPG Maker community. I have played some amazing games that were long, but. I have also played some amazing games that I felt were cut short. Leaving me to question why the creator didn't make the game longer, when the story could have very much so been extended without feeling like it was dragging on. Why is it that long games, whether it be commercial or made with RPG Maker. Are not being pumped out.
(On a side note, if my writing seems a little off. Please excuse me, its 4am where I am and I wanted to post this before I went to bed, lol.)
Now, I direct some attention to the RPG Maker community. I have played some amazing games that were long, but. I have also played some amazing games that I felt were cut short. Leaving me to question why the creator didn't make the game longer, when the story could have very much so been extended without feeling like it was dragging on. Why is it that long games, whether it be commercial or made with RPG Maker. Are not being pumped out.
(On a side note, if my writing seems a little off. Please excuse me, its 4am where I am and I wanted to post this before I went to bed, lol.)
Darken
3952
Because making a 100+ hour RPG takes time (and for commercial companies, money). Personally I don't see the point of games that take forever to beat, the only long rpg I bothered to beat was Persona 3 and most of that was just boring dungeon crawler filler. Encouraging long games in the RM community isn't going to get more games completed, it isn't going to make more enjoyable games, it's just going to make them more bloated with content only soulless grind-core nerds are going to care about.
1) Even old school RPGs (Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy) had experienced development teams working 40+ hours weekly on them. Typically the people on this board are hobbyists, who if they're lucky get 10 hours in a week, and they work alone.
2) Games should end when the creator feels they are content-complete and that they've put in everything they wanted to (while meeting deadlines...). You should <i>never</i> add to a game merely to add length - instead, you should come up with new ideas to experiment with that make your game more fun. If you're out of those ideas, your game is done - and artificially trying to lengthen it will dilute the truly original and fun content.
Yes, some amazingly fun games are very short, but that's because the complete package was small. Trying to add to that package will merely water down what already exists.
2) Games should end when the creator feels they are content-complete and that they've put in everything they wanted to (while meeting deadlines...). You should <i>never</i> add to a game merely to add length - instead, you should come up with new ideas to experiment with that make your game more fun. If you're out of those ideas, your game is done - and artificially trying to lengthen it will dilute the truly original and fun content.
Yes, some amazingly fun games are very short, but that's because the complete package was small. Trying to add to that package will merely water down what already exists.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Supposition: If your game is fun, the player will want to keep playing it.
Subpoint A: Redoing the same challenges they already completed doesn't really count. Part of what's fun is, hopefully, figuring out how to overcome each challenge. So you need to keep adding more dungeons and bosses if you want the player to be able to keep playing it.
Subsubpoint A-I: Disregard Subpoint A for PVP multiplayer, and for roguelikes, since these types of gameplay provide fresh challenges for a near-infinite amount of time.
Counterargument: Sometimes you only have so many tricks up your sleeve and can only keep stuff interesting for so long, and it might be better to end the game right before it becomes boring than long afterward.
Interjection: RPGs aren't really getting any shorter, you're probably just getting better at them. FF4 took me 70 hours when I was in middle school, but my most recent playthrough was about 25 hours; shorter than FF12 or FF13.
Self-Defense: Indie games in general are often much shorter than commercial games, but it's generally not because we think making it 5 hours long is better design. In my experience it happens due to lack of manpower; it's often impossible, unwise, or at least extremely frustrating to continue making the same game for 2-3 years when no one is paying you for it.
Subpoint A: Redoing the same challenges they already completed doesn't really count. Part of what's fun is, hopefully, figuring out how to overcome each challenge. So you need to keep adding more dungeons and bosses if you want the player to be able to keep playing it.
Subsubpoint A-I: Disregard Subpoint A for PVP multiplayer, and for roguelikes, since these types of gameplay provide fresh challenges for a near-infinite amount of time.
Counterargument: Sometimes you only have so many tricks up your sleeve and can only keep stuff interesting for so long, and it might be better to end the game right before it becomes boring than long afterward.
Interjection: RPGs aren't really getting any shorter, you're probably just getting better at them. FF4 took me 70 hours when I was in middle school, but my most recent playthrough was about 25 hours; shorter than FF12 or FF13.
Self-Defense: Indie games in general are often much shorter than commercial games, but it's generally not because we think making it 5 hours long is better design. In my experience it happens due to lack of manpower; it's often impossible, unwise, or at least extremely frustrating to continue making the same game for 2-3 years when no one is paying you for it.
Neverm0re
341
When I play a game that turns out to take a long time to finish, it is usually never because the game itself is long, it's because there is a lot of grinding/side quests that bulk up the game. It took me FOREVER to finish FF8 the first time through because of the card game and getting items to make weapons. The next playthrough was a breeze because I just focused on finishing the game.
Shinan
4314
I prefer shorter games these days. Games are so cheap that I have loads of them and spending more than 20 hours on any game is a bucketload! And damn the RPGs because they have to be the longest of them all.
(yeah basically the complete opposite of the original post)
(yeah basically the complete opposite of the original post)
eplipswich
2728
Yeah, I agree that length really doesn't matter, as long as an RPG is engaging. What's important is that an RPG shouldn't have too many unnecessary fillers that don't fit the story. Nobody would play a RPG that's long, but boring. Making a longer game also has a higher risk than making a shorter game because of the aforementioned. It may not turn out to be interesting, unless you are really confident in your abilities.
In indie RPG aspect, I'm pretty sure very few of the long RPGs are actually one-man shows, and even if they are, very few of them are actually good.
In indie RPG aspect, I'm pretty sure very few of the long RPGs are actually one-man shows, and even if they are, very few of them are actually good.
Jparker1984
2008
I see alot of valid points. I do really agree with one thing LockeZ said
"Counterargument: Sometimes you only have so many tricks up your sleeve and can only keep stuff interesting for so long, and it might be better to end the game right before it becomes boring than long afterward."
However, at least for me. I don't mind to much repeating things that have already been done if the story I'm chasing after is engaging. Also, if the creator dose a few things to change it up. I am one of those people that love long games, given that there is something to achieve. For example, getting all characters to max level, getting all spells, completing all quests and so on. I wouldn't call myself a soulless grind-core nerds as Darken had mentioned, but I enjoy completing lots of things.
Also, to be more descriptive. A long game to me is like 40ish hours.
"Counterargument: Sometimes you only have so many tricks up your sleeve and can only keep stuff interesting for so long, and it might be better to end the game right before it becomes boring than long afterward."
However, at least for me. I don't mind to much repeating things that have already been done if the story I'm chasing after is engaging. Also, if the creator dose a few things to change it up. I am one of those people that love long games, given that there is something to achieve. For example, getting all characters to max level, getting all spells, completing all quests and so on. I wouldn't call myself a soulless grind-core nerds as Darken had mentioned, but I enjoy completing lots of things.
Also, to be more descriptive. A long game to me is like 40ish hours.
Jparker1984
2008
author=slashphoenix
Have you ever played Disgaea?
oh yeah, love the series. Disgaea 3 is my fav. Cant wait for 4.
EDIT: Unrelated to the post by slashphoenix, my game is currently around 12 hours. I'm aiming for 30.
emmych
817
A lot of games have padded length, too -- I'm playing Tales of the Abyss at the moment, and ho-lee-sheeit is it padded! I've gone back and forth between the same cities all for the sake of extending the game, and it's annoying as hell.
In my opinion, the core quest in any rpg shouldn't take a player more than 20-30 hours, and that's only if it's a challenging game. The only thing that should be extending it is gameplay, too -- no flying around the world flipping plot flags. The only games I play that last longer than 20-30 hours tend to be the ones I find to be really fun and are challenging -- I'm okay with grinding out levels if it's what I need to beat a really difficult but fun boss, you know?
For folks who wanna stay in a game world longer, they can replay the game on New Game+ mode, do the extra superdungeon, max out their character levels, find the best weapons, discover awesome job combinations, do the major sidequest... you get the idea.
In my opinion, the core quest in any rpg shouldn't take a player more than 20-30 hours, and that's only if it's a challenging game. The only thing that should be extending it is gameplay, too -- no flying around the world flipping plot flags. The only games I play that last longer than 20-30 hours tend to be the ones I find to be really fun and are challenging -- I'm okay with grinding out levels if it's what I need to beat a really difficult but fun boss, you know?
For folks who wanna stay in a game world longer, they can replay the game on New Game+ mode, do the extra superdungeon, max out their character levels, find the best weapons, discover awesome job combinations, do the major sidequest... you get the idea.
Jparker1984
2008
author=emmych
For folks who wanna stay in a game world longer, they can replay the game on New Game+ mode, do the extra superdungeon, max out their character levels, find the best weapons, discover awesome job combinations, do the major sidequest... you get the idea.
That's exactly what I like to do to "Extend" the game. Just the feeling of accomplishment from doing a difficult task.
Neverm0re
341
I remember that in one of my projects (before I lost 5 years of work), I had one game I was making that had like 40 different classes. Were they necessary? Hell no, most of them were on the same power level and only a couple gave anything beyond a themed set of abilities/equipment, but most of them required quests/item sets to unlock, which would be one way to extend a game that I approve of: Giving the player the OPTION to extend the game. If they wanna go out and do all the extra stuff to get all the nifties, then they can, but don't extend the main story just for the sake of making the game longer. It feels artificial and will only work to make the game worse 90% of the time.
Stew
0
Back when I was in high school and even in college I had time laying around to play and beat multiple 100+ hour RPGs. Nowadays though... I work multiple jobs just to make my bills and usually have maybe at beat three or four hours of guaranteed gaming each week. I imagine that even this won't be the case soon; my wife and I are having a baby in July.
Shorter games are nice for those of us who like video games but also don't want to feel like we're never going to reach the title screen. And while I would agree that many modern games take their brevity too far, the counterpoint could be that many older games were too long. I can think of a few classic JRPGs that might have benefited from some time at the editor's desk.
Shorter games are nice for those of us who like video games but also don't want to feel like we're never going to reach the title screen. And while I would agree that many modern games take their brevity too far, the counterpoint could be that many older games were too long. I can think of a few classic JRPGs that might have benefited from some time at the editor's desk.
Actually, newer RPGs tend to be a lot longer than older ones. Compare the 60+ hours of Dragon Age to the 20-25 hours it took to play through Final Fantasy VI (and that's going at a leisurely pace). You could even comfortably finish Final Fantasy I in about 7-10 hours, which would be considered far too short today.
As others have said, it's better to have the game be a natural length, and to keep things as short and sweet as possible. If your game ends up being a lengthy epic because that's what the story and game play demand, then go for it, but don't feel the need to pad out the game with busywork like a lot of MMO-inspired modern RPGs have you do. It's better to leave the audience wanting more than it is to drag out the experience.
Personally, I think the most fun way to extend the life of a game is to encourage multiple playthroughs with player choices; alternate paths for the story campaign can be a ton of fun.
As others have said, it's better to have the game be a natural length, and to keep things as short and sweet as possible. If your game ends up being a lengthy epic because that's what the story and game play demand, then go for it, but don't feel the need to pad out the game with busywork like a lot of MMO-inspired modern RPGs have you do. It's better to leave the audience wanting more than it is to drag out the experience.
Personally, I think the most fun way to extend the life of a game is to encourage multiple playthroughs with player choices; alternate paths for the story campaign can be a ton of fun.
gadesx
307
Well, I don't like the RPGs that are very short, the title I'm working now go around 20-30 hours I expect (7 years working in them) and its a bit different because are the game are walking through new areas, and never go back for make new missions in zones your finished (many games use revisiting for make a long game with the same maps)
gerkrt
488
It depends of the type of the game. But comercial games are full of filler. I like a rpg well designed and that durates like30h at max.
For short rpgmaker projects 6-10h projects is ok, it tells a idea and worls, being intense and fun.
For now all my games are like this except one. These will have like 20h mq .
For short rpgmaker projects 6-10h projects is ok, it tells a idea and worls, being intense and fun.
For now all my games are like this except one. These will have like 20h mq .
Darkflamewolf
2178
Well my game, the main quest, if you are REALLY rushing it, will probably only take 6-7 hours tops. But I'm pretty sure the enemies and final bosses will wipe the floor with you if you didn't do your proper leveling and pad out your experience by doing sidequests and exploring optional areas to help your leveling issue. The main bulk of the game, however, will be through the New Game + and the myriad of sidequests (70 total as of right now) and an array of trophies/achievements.
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